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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Going inside of a building... modeling the inside too...

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 05:52 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 05:53
Okay so I have a simple building (already texture mapped, etc). Now I want it in my game so that the player can walk inside the building, etc. Right now, the building isnt exactly hollow, so i need to make it that in 3ds max. So I'm guessing I need to use FLIP NORMALS. I flipped the normals in max, and exported to .x, and loaded up in my game. But there are a few problems (oh yeah, no collision yet for the test building). I can go inside the building (just go straight thru one of the walls) and when I'm inside it does look like im actually inside the building. BUT the problem with flip normals is that when Im outside the building it looks all wierd and stuff (walls missing, etc).

Can someone please point me in the right direction? Sorry, but I'm really new to this 3d collision/flip normals stuff. Thanks!

Oh and also, I can post up the building with the flipped normals if anyone wants it. Can post screenies too

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Van B
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 05:57
The simple solution is to disable culling, that way - all the polygons are drawn no matter what side you view them from:

SET OBJECT CULL Obj,0


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
JeBuS
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 05:58
You need to display the flipped normals and regular normals at the same time. Also, it might be a good idea to scale the flipped version smaller by a tiny amount, .01 or some such, to get the outer walls to no longer touch.


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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 05:58
wow...quick response! I'll try that Van-B, thanks a bunch! . But set object cull can be used in conjunction with flipping normals, right? So its culled and the normals are flipped, possible?

Thanks!!

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:19 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 06:22
Quote: "You need to display the flipped normals and regular normals at the same time"


What do you mean by that? I gotta have 2 different versions of the model? Cant I just do that culling thing Van B said?


[edit] Okay I tried setting the cull to 0, but didnt work... ill post screenies later..

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JeBuS
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:22
Sure, but if you want the interior to look different from the exterior, I imagine you'll need to texture both sides differently.


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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:44
well i just model the inside and outside seperate, well, this time round i did, and i know now that i shouldnt O.o

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:46
OH yeah, thats true...

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:48 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 07:05
Quote: "well i just model the inside and outside seperate, well, this time round i did, and i know now that i shouldnt O.o"


So you're saying I shouldn't do that? Oh yeah and also, I think in max i can do something like a double sided material... so as for texturing it might not be necessary. Im gonna post some screenshots now. OH yeah and by the way, Im testing this with a box that a made in max, not the building...

Okay heres one of teh screenshots, I put the culling on, but as you can see it doesnt work.




Thanks

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:50 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 06:51
Good, screenies of your college stick Rpg imitation thing, that sounds very cool.

Got anime?I do.
Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:54
make a triangle.
attach the outside shell of the building as limb 1
attach the inside shell of the building as limb 2
attach the misc objects inside the building as limb 3

if the player is far away, only display limb 1
if the player is closer, display limb 1 and limb 2
if the player is inside, hide limb 1, and display limb 2 and limb 3

the model buffer will be larger, but the rendering time will remain mostly unneffected, as you are removing 'limbs' that you do not need to see.

That's my two cents on buildings.

if you have a massive building, try making each internal room set a seperate limb as well.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 06:58
Emmm... I dont know anything at all about limbs... crap

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:01 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 07:04
K heres another screenie, if I'm close up (the second camera view) and inside the object, the walls look fine



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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:07
easy enough

when your doing bone animations, linking limbs actually matters.
but when your talking about static objects like buildings, you can cheat a little and bypass a lot of the stuff.

here is some code for you off the top of my head...

load image "outsideskin.jpg", 1
load image "insideskin.jpg", 2
load image "objectsskin.jpg", 3

load object 1, "outtershell.3ds", 1
make mesh from object 1, 1
load object 2, "innershell.3ds", 2
make mesh from object 2, 2
load object 3, "miscobjects.3ds", 3
make mesh from object 3, 3

make object triangle 1000, -1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1
add limb 1000, 1
texture limb 1000, 1, 1
add limb 1000, 2
texture limb 1000, 2, 2
add limb 1000, 3
texture limb 1000, 3, 3
hide limb 1000, 0
set object cull 1000, 1

REM during the game loop you would have code something like this

if player is far away....
show limb 1000, 1
hide limb 1000, 2
hide limb 1000, 3

if player is close but not inside...
show limb 1000, 1
show limb 1000, 2
hide limb 1000, 3

if player is inside...
hide limb 1000, 1
show limb 1000, 2
show limb 1000, 3

And that can be determined either by a event flag, a distance formula, ect...

I didn't comment the code, but that should work for you... just let me know if you need more help on it

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:14
OK Pheonixx that looks good, I get where youre going with it, but I've never used limbs before... like just sort of an offtopic question to clarify limbs, like say I had a character, how would I know which limb is his arm, which is his leg, etc? What if the player is one huge mesh? (Isnt that what it usually is anyways?)

Thanks

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:30
the way I do it isn't the best way by far, limb motion is not my skill..

how I work around my lack of knowledge about model animations, is make a set of static objects.

load object head
load object body
load object leftarm
ect....

then use that same method as above to turn them into meshes and add them to a primitive object.

the difference is, that when you get into moving the limbs, I hit and miss on getting it to work right.. just guessing and playing with the numbers

one of the requirements is Link Limb objectid, parent, child...
or something like that

you use link limb to set the order of how the limbs react with each other.

your head, upper arms, and thighs would all be linked to the torso

and then the rest of the body parts attached to their respective parts, like lower arm to upper arm

however all of the different body parts are still at 0,0,0, which is where the offset limb command comes in to play

again I just play with the values until I get it to work, but use the offset limb command to adjust each body part... a very important thing to know, is that the limb links effect the offset values. thus if you move your torso, all of the limbs attached to it move with it. when you move the arm, it thus moves relative to the torso and so on and so forth.

its all really not my bag of coins, so you'd probably have a better understanding if someone who knows more about it jumps on this thread and helps both of us out.. lol.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:32 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 07:38
OK i guess the building method with limbs works, but I dont know about your character animation method...

I dont really get it though, do you actually have to use limbs? can't I just the inner shell as a seperate object inside of the main outer shell?

And why do you use a triangle?

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:36
Quote: "but I dont know about your character animation method..."


Ditto

Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:41 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 07:45
Oh, sorry didn't catch your question in there...

the reason to use limbs is for clean object handling.

you have one objectID for the building, vice 3, 4, a hundred, ect.. objectID's for one building. using the limbs is very straight forward, and doesn't give you a headache trying to remember which object goes with which building

think of it as bundling all of the parts into one ObjectID, and then referencing which part you want to effect as a limb.

[edit.. darn I need to learn how to read, missed another part of your question...
the reason I use a triangle as the base of the object, is because it is the most primitive object that takes up a minimal amount of space. the base object is limb 0, the less you mess with limb 0 the better. ...]

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:42 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 07:45
oh i get it, bundle it into the triangle!

then youd have to hide the trinagle right. And where do you position the triangle? In the building? Then youd also have to position the limbs individually, right?

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:48
Haha sorry you dont need to learn how to read, its cuz i edited my post . didnt want to keep posting and posting and posting more posts. Sorry !

And thanks a bunch for your help! I will try this method out? Oh and by the way, can you do collision with limbs? Like m test building is a hotel, so if I have a limb for the receptioinst person, and if the player collides with him/her, they will be given an option the rent a room .

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:54
okay, the triangle is removed from the picture when you call the command -> hide limb ObjectID, 0

for buildings, everything sits on 0,0,0, all of your limbs are already defaulted to 0,0,0, so you do not have to worry about linking or offseting the building limbs.

in order to position the building, you position it like any other object -> position object ObjectID, x,y,z

for example, I use Wings3D for static modelling, it's free, and works just fine for all intent and purpose.

I make the complete building, outside, inside, tables and chairs, ect.

then I select which faces will be the outside skin, and "export selected to 3DS"

then I select which faces will be the inside skin, and "export selected to 3DS"

finilly grab the rest of the faces and "export selected to 3DS"

granted you have to make sure you have provided the wings3D model UV data before exporting, or else the objects don't accept a texture, but this basically makes the three objects. The bonus is, that because you created all three objects for your building off of the same model, all faces will line up, and their will be no clipping, or guess work on how to match it up.

load um in, limb them onto the base object, and have fun

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 07:58
Okay yeah 3ds max has a export selection thing, I can do that, so I have different models for chairs, whatever. So when I load all of them in, they should line up correctly exactly how they looked like in the modeling program?

and what about collision?

Thanks a lot!

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:00
having the receptionist as part of the building itself, that's a good idea if he or she is never going to move. As for using collisions to detect, you need to reference someone with working knowledge of the Nuclear Glory DLL, as the collision functions in DBP are substandard and flakey.

The best thing to do for now, is just give the receptionist a 3D location, and when the player is a certain distance from the receptionist he/she will prompt the player for interaction. If the player responds, then jump to the code where you deal with the options he/she gives your player.

Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:05
Yes, when you export from 3DS, all of the objects are stored exactly where you exported them from. so if you have a table and chairs set up in the room, and then export them...

when you call that object up into DBP they will relatively be in the exact same place withen the main model as when you exported them.

if you move your object, they move with it, it's practically fail safe.

now here is the fun part. lets say you make one of the chairs its own limb.

when the luney drunkard gets up, he throws the chair....

you offset limb objectid, 4, in the direction over time that he throws it, and then hide them limb once it goes thru the wall.. adjust the interior limbs texture (set limb texture) to reflect the lovely hole in the wall, and laugh as the bouncer comes to get him....

Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:08
oh yeah, and while we are on the subject, things like ceiling fans can add a lot of environment to the game, so things don't look so static. you'll have to work with link limbs, offset limbs, and limb rotations, but that is yet another thing you can work with in order to make your inn more realistic.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:16
can you animate the limbs in 3ds max, the export it, and play the animation sequence in DBP?

Thanks!!!

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:22
sorry bro, I'm only a static modeller. couldn't tell ya

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:42
Haha its okay, but thanks a lot man that really, really, clarified some stuff. One last question: So the outershell is not flipped normals, correct? Then the inner shell HAS its normals flipped, and is culled (set object cull OBJid, 0)? Just wanted to confirm. Thaks again!

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 08:52
no, leave that stuff alone.

when you export the interior faces, they are set up the way they need to be. messing with those variables is like tweeking a yugo. make your program a porche, and then start tweeking

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 10:15
Yeah, but to export the interior faces, the normals need to be flipped otherwise I cant see the inside when I'm modelling it . Oh and also, I have to change the camera view to be a little closer to the player when ur inside the building, cuz then the views get messed up.

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 10:19
You obviousely use a different modeling technique then I do. There should be no reason to flip anything or set any special flags. just make the outside of your object, then select everything that is going to lead from the inside to the outside, windows, doors, chimneys, ect.... then click intrude.

I'll make up a quick example in wings3D... so you guys can see what I mean, and I'll make it available to you so you can load it in, and walk around. brb.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 10:41 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 10:54
What i meant was, ok so I have the outer shell, which is what the outside of the building looks like, then I duplicate it, scale it slightly down, this is the inner shell, and i have to flip the normals so that when Im modeling it in max, I can see where stuff is going to be placed. Also, you have to flip the normals so the inner shell is hollow.

[edit]I think I misunderstood what you meant by inside shell.... you meant duplicating and scaling bit smaller right?

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 13:24 Edited at: 7th Sep 2004 21:10
Here you go mate... I went ahead and built a model for you, it's really bad but it gets the point accross.

I've also made a small program to demonstrate the concept.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com/MiscStuff/demobuildingextras.zip

and here are some screen shots of the model rendered in wings.





as for shrinking and skinning, you would have to place something extra for the door jams, window ledges, ect...

all I did was make the entire thing inside and out, and then exporting selected faces into three models.

The model itself is around 4000 polygons, because I wasn't being concerned with polycount. for this reason, it takes a while for the .exe to execute.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 14:03
Thats awesome man thanks a lot, but I can't download it! Says its page cannot be found...

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 21:11
Okay, had an extra s on the filename... oops... lol. It should work now

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 08:19
Ok thanks I downloaded it, but when I run the program, I can't see the model . I see the blue screen and the text, but no model. Im using DBP 5.5, you?

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 08:37
I am using DBP version 5.1

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 08:53
Hm... well thats okay I get the genereal idea of your program, thats a lot dude!! I'll definetly add you to my credits !

One last question, how exactly did you model your building? Did you start by creating a face, etc, how did you make the interior? My idea of a house was like make a box, hollow it out, etc.

Thanks again!!!!

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 08:58
well I actually can whip out a basic house like that in about 15 minutes, it's the UV mapping, and face extracting that takes forever.

I use the extrude function to pull the outside of the building to look the way I want.

Then select all of the windows and doors that would lead from the inside to the outside, and intrude them just far enough to give the walls some thickness.

adding the floors in on the enterior is done by bridging off the section you want the floor to be in, then selecting all of the faces around the paremeter where the floor goes, and capping it. in wings3D all you do is press the del key to cap.

the staircases for example were just lines beveled out, and extruded.

the longest part of modelling is making sure that all of your faces are no more then 3 or 4 verticies depending on the angle of the face.

I'll whip up a few screen shots for a tutorial in wings3D real quick.. brb

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 09:08
Awesome, thank you so much! Also, you said you extruded to make the outside, but like, what do you start the extrude with, just a plane or something? You just extrude the faces?

Thanks sooooo much!!!

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 10:07


Radial Y scale the box to 300%, then extrude some of the faces to

make a general building like layout.



now select the top of the building and extrude region on the Y axis

about one measure.



select the edge around the top of the building and extrude region

normal about one measure, creating the overhang.



to make the front porch, cut the lines in 2 and connect them



then select the two front faces and bridge them



next select the four faces in the hole, and cap them (dissolve in

wings3D)



perform a little vertex housekeeping, by removing unwanted lines

and adding in new ones that will prove convenient



raise the roof... lol... er somethin... by simply moving the faces up

on the y axis a few measures



now move the bottom faces down on the y axis to give the house

good depth...



select all the vertical lines on the 'levels' of the building, cut them

depending on how many floors you want, and connect the vertex's,

making some lines to work with....



go ahead and add in a few more cuts and connects (keeping in

mind that each face must not exceed 4 verticies) and make some

windows and doors.



with ALL windows and doors highlighted, intrude a the object to a

sufficient wall thickness...



notice how the inside has a lofted roof. if you don't want the lofted roof, make the roof after doing the intrusion. but for this tutorial the building will have a loft.



made a few additions to the interior, mostly cutting, connecting, extruding, and moving.... and I ended up with something like this.. again, make sure you are cleaning up your verticies, and keeping all faces with no more then 4 vertex each.



add in a few basic colors to designate what is what, allign the building to the 0,0,0 point, (rotate it to the z axis vice y axis for 3ds exporting in wings3D), UV map it, and then start exporting



that's pretty much the gist of it. now I didn't add in any of the bells and wistles... but I hope this tutorial on how I make buildings has helped you out a lot.

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 10:37
WOW!! I didnt expect you to do and do THAT much!!!! Thanks SOOO much... I am forever indebted to you. Just a quick question, it still sort of confuses me how intruding creates walls like that. Is intruding in Wings 3d the same as just extruding negatively (in 3ds max)? Because I tried doing something like your building in max, but then when I selected the doors and windows and extruded negatively, the result was nothing like yours. When you make a box in Wings, is it by defualt, emm... hollow?

Thanks soooo much, again!

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 10:42
Indian, you need a W.I.P with more screenies of your game, I'm dieing to see it's progress.

Got anime?I do.
Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 10:42 Edited at: 8th Sep 2004 10:45
Ahh, shoot, intruding is NOT the same as extruding backwards . So i cant do this with max, but I guess I'll try out wings 3d . Thanks a LOT bro!

@ Anime-

Lol thanks dude, but you really cant do a whole lot yet. There are two really crappy buildings, the hotel function actually works, but the building is the sh*ts. Once I get a building going and some other features I'll make a WIP post.

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Pheonixx
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 10:43
It has been years since I've worked in 3DS max, and even then it was just an internship. Intrusion is unlike extrude.. extrude just moves the faces inwards or outwards, intrusion functions withen the limits of the objects bounds; from 0% to 100% of the object.

I'm sure 3DS has a function similar.. if not, just download wings3D

Indian Homie G
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 13:31
Okay . Maybe I can build the base mesh in max, export and load into wings, do the intrusion in wings, export again, then go back 2 max and do the inside .

Once again, THANK YOU, VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY MUCH!!!

Definetly getting a spot in my credits

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Dot Merix
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Posted: 8th Sep 2004 13:48
Let me just say two things. First of all, i dont know why you said that model is really really bad, because the renders look fantastic. Secondly, this should definately be a sticky due to the tutorial and useful information in this.

- Merix

Athlon xp 2400+, 1.0GB Ram, Radeon 9800PRO 128mb
Indian Homie G
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jan 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posted: 8th Sep 2004 14:41
Quote: " First of all, i dont know why you said that model is really really bad, because the renders look fantastic"


I know, I could never make anything that good, that was incredible that red building he made . And yeah, I guess stickying this could help a bunch of people...

AMD Athlon XP 3000+, S3 Deltachrome s8, 512 PC3200 RAM, 160 GB HD
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 8th Sep 2004 15:15
thanks guys.

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