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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / How do you guys survive when you have more than 23000 lines of code?

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Bulleyes
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 14:27
My project had exceeded 23000 lines of codes, and will be approaching 26000 soon. The compilation took me around 3 minutes and 20 seconds to complete on my AMD 2100 (1.7Ghz) With this kinda time, imagine every single bug that I fix, even a single statement or a single misspelled variable, I have to wait for 3 minutes to test it out.

This is very annoying. I can't bear this anymore. Any remedy for this? i.e. anything like precompiled header in C++ or compile it separately into several modules? (Don't tell me to make this into a DLL, as I can't use IanM's interface library for certain reason.)

Thanks!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Jess T
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 14:30
Holy Crap batman!

That's massive! I've never gotten past about the 3000 mark

All I can recomend is making the program rely completely on external files, then it's all just a matter of changing text files, and executing the exe again

Or possibly writing your own scripting engine, but by this time, the game'll be way too involved to change it now!

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
Bulleyes
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 14:31
If only DBpro has an "intepreted mode", which works like DBClassic. The executable might be slow, but I guess it is good for debugging. Just like Macromedia Flash, if anybody does ActionScripting before, he/she will know.

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
The admiral
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 14:41
get a faster computer for debugging and compiling etc

[href]www.vapourhost.com/~flyer[/href]
Jess T
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 14:42 Edited at: 12th Sep 2004 14:43
Yeah, I've done ActionScripting extensivly in the past, and it does save a lot of time!

Same as with DBC ( as you said ).

Have you tried using an alternate IDE? As some of the Pre-compiler tasks may be more optimized in them...

I'm shooting in the dark ( hehe, no pun intended ) here now But give it a go and see eh?

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
The Great Poe
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 15:29
*has never gotten past 1000*

Wow...

I HAVE DARKBASIC PROFESSIONAL!!!!!!!

www.parallelpark.tk
The Great Poe
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 15:32
When I think about it though, I've had to go through BSP compiling times of over like 20 minutes, so consider yourself lucky.

(levels CAN have bugs)

I HAVE DARKBASIC PROFESSIONAL!!!!!!!

www.parallelpark.tk
Indian Homie G
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 15:33
Haha, you can do a whole lot in my RPG, and its 1300 lines .

And what does IanM's interface library do? I might be able to use it...

AMD Athlon XP 3000+, S3 Deltachrome s8, 512 PC3200 RAM, 160 GB HD
PiratSS
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 15:53
You dont need so much code. Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code. And winows just under 3000.

So you see, optimization is the key.

Jess T
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 15:58
lol, but your forgetting all the other stuff that goes with windows to make it more than just a OS, so that it has a GUI, a shell, etc etc etc...

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
John H
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 16:01
<lines = good

Solution: Optimize for dear sweet life
Use includes
Use functions whenever possible
Implement a scripting system
Take SS and use for braggins purposes and live with it.


Check out our Team Request in the Team Request section if you want to help!
Bulleyes
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 16:34
Quote: "You dont need so much code. Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code. And winows just under 3000."


Is this justifiable? I don't believe this. 3000 thousand is too little man. And you are saying Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code? Are you including the code for the game engine? (I don't think so.) I would say 10000 lines of code is pretty normal for games these days.

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Surreal Studio IanG
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 17:30
you could always up the priorty of the compiler - it might work, i tend to do it alot when rendering with max as it gives it more processor time, so it might help the compiler


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David T
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 17:41
Quote: "You dont need so much code. Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code. And winows just under 3000.

So you see, optimization is the key."


Pocket PC Windows = 2.5 million lines

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 18:00
It might be a good idea to send an E-Mail to Lee, just to remind him that that needs updating (preferably a more VC type of error reporting - ie reports every error line when compiling).


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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 19:00
Quote: "And winows just under 3000"


hahahahahaha! a more accurate estimate is literally in the millions of lines of code.

"eureka" - Archimedes
Rob K
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 19:43
Quote: "You dont need so much code. Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code. And winows just under 3000 So you see, optimization is the key.
"


LOL Seriously though, Windows 2000 comprised 46 million lines of code, Doom 3 probably runs into a million or so lines.

Quote: "My project had exceeded 23000 lines of codes, and will be approaching 26000 soon. The compilation took me around 3 minutes and 20 seconds to complete on my AMD 2100 (1.7Ghz) With this kinda time, imagine every single bug that I fix, even a single statement or a single misspelled variable, I have to wait for 3 minutes to test it out."


Is there any way you can split the application / game up temorarily so that you can test / build each part in turn?

What is the reason why you cannot use Ian's C++ lib?

Failing that, send a begging email to Lee asking if he can modify the compiler so that it can create seperate modules. I'm sure it would make his FPSC work a lot easier as well.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Bulleyes
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 20:08 Edited at: 12th Sep 2004 20:09
Thanks RobK. Your suggestion is by far the most constructive.

The reason why I can't used IanM's interface library is because most of my code rely heavily on other TPC DLL. I don't think I can call these TPC from C++ thru the IanM's interface library.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did email Lee. His FPSC is around 15000 lines of code. But you know what he reply to me, "We are using a very high-end PC, and thus it took us 10 seconds to compile it!" *DUH* He did recommend me to split up the app like what you suggested, which I guess is the most reasonable solution for now, and I am practising it as well.

Thanks buddy!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
IanM
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 20:10
Which TPCs are you using? If I have the writers permission, and access to the TPC, I can relatively easily add the TPCs to the interface library.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
For free Plug-ins, source and the Interface library for Visual C++ 6, .NET and now for Dev-C++ http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
Bulleyes
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 21:21
Thanks IanM. Maybe not for now, but perhaps in my future project. I had already written so much, and it will be very time consuming to port every module into C++.

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Philip
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 00:41
Another and less efficient alternative is to buy a faster computer?

My project is now up around the 20,000 line mark and it compiles in about 20 seconds...

... and usually takes about a further 3 seconds to crash. But thats a separate story.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Bulleyes
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:00
Impressive Phil, what is your current CPU specs?

Do you guys think that I should upgrade the CPU to improve the compilation time, or the system memory? Thanks!

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Tartopom
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:08
Just curious, what's your project ?

( just a line )
Philip
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:10
Bullseye, my stats appear below in my sig line.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Indian Homie G
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:22
Hey guys no one answered my question ... what does IanM's interface lib thing do and where can I get it?

Thanks

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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:29
It alllows you to call DBP commands from TPCs, and its in the WIP forum.

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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:33
what are TPC's

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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:37
Plugins.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
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Indian Homie G
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 02:39
Thanks! But ok using IanM's interface lib, how does that help... in making it compile faster, etc

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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 03:35
It lets you write DBPro games in C++. Most C++ compilers allow you to compile source files individually, so that when you make changes and recompile, only the files that have been modified will need to be recompiled.

In addition, you can use the much more sophisiticated debugging facilities provided by Visual Studio for example, as well as gain speed because the VC++ compiler is much more efficient than the DarkBASIC one.

The downside is that C++ is obviously a more complicated language which is harder to learn than BASIC.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Bulleyes
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 04:12 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 04:14
@RobK:

How do you debug a program written in C++ via IanM's interface lib? Technically, you will produce a DLL, which your DBpro executable will use it. I don't see how you can take advantage of the C++ debugger? Unless you are talking about using the VC++ debugger to attach the debugger on the DLL process when you run your DBpro program.

@Tartopom:

It's a multiplayer RTS/Action game. You can get more details from,
http://www.badnose.com/development/development.html

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Floyd
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 04:51
In the installation screens for Doom3, they mention that Doom3 required 500,000 lines of code. There was some other interesting information in there too, like the size of save files and historic information on the original Doom, but I've forgotten all that.
David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 04:56
Quote: "How do you debug a program written in C++ via IanM's interface lib? Technically, you will produce a DLL, which your DBpro executable will use it. I don't see how you can take advantage of the C++ debugger? Unless you are talking about using the VC++ debugger to attach the debugger on the DLL process when you run your DBpro program."


I think he means compile time debugging.

Age of Mythology was 1 million lines of code.

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Tartopom
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:06
For Doom 3, i've seen this numbers :

Sdk : 400.000 lines
Entire Game : 800.000 lines
Rob K
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:22 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:23
@Bulleyes,

If you place the DBPro application in the same folder as your plugin DLL's build dir, the DBPro app will use that DLL instead of the one built-into the exe (ie. the one taken from the plugins-user folder - you still need a DLL of some kind in the plugins-user folder, otherwise it won't compile, but it can just be an empty "template"). This means that if you set the debugging action to the DBPro exe, you can debug your app using the VC++ debugger.

I did this whilst developing my UI plugin and it came in very handy.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
PiratSS
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:56
Wow, you guys dont understand sarcasm at all.

Rob K
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We do understand sarcasm hence the "LOL " in my post


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Philip
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 07:48
Actually I don't understand sarcasm. Please can you explain it. Using diagrams if possible.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Don Malone
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 09:09 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 09:09
http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/
The information is from 2001 but interesting as long as you think about it being every part of the program.

Quote: "3.6 Total SLOC Counts
Given all of these assumptions, the counting programs compute a total of 30,152,114 physical source lines of code (SLOC); I will simplify this to ``over 30 million physical SLOC''. This is an astounding amount of code; compare this to reported sizes of other systems:

Product SLOC
NASA Space Shuttle flight control - 420K (shuttle) + 1.4 million (ground)
Sun Solaris (1998-2000) 7-8 million
Microsoft Windows 3.1 (1992) 3 million
Microsoft Windows 95 15 million
Microsoft Windows 98 18 million
Microsoft Windows NT (1992) 4 million
Microsoft Windows NT 5.0 (as of 1998) 20 million
Red Hat Linux 6.2 (2000) 17 million"



Quote: "2.2 Defining SLOC

The ``physical source lines of code'' (physical SLOC) measure was used as the primary measure of SLOC in this paper. Less formally, a physical SLOC in this paper is a line with something other than comments and whitespace (tabs and spaces). More specifically, physical SLOC is defined as follows: ``a physical source line of code is a line ending in a newline or end-of-file marker, and which contains at least one non-whitespace non-comment character.'' Comment delimiters (characters other than newlines starting and ending a comment) were considered comment characters. Data lines only including whitespace (e.g., lines with only tabs and spaces in multiline strings) were not included.

Note that the ``logical'' SLOC is not the primary measure used here; one example of a logical SLOC measure would be the ``count of all terminating semicolons in a C file.'' The ``physical'' SLOC was chosen instead of the ``logical'' SLOC because there were so many different languages that needed to be measured. I had trouble getting freely-available tools to work on this scale, and the non-free tools were too expensive for my budget (nor is it certain that they would have fared any better). Since I had to develop my own tools, I chose a measure that is much easier to implement. Park [1992] actually recommends the use of the physical SLOC measure (as a minimum), for this and other reasons. There are disadvantages to the ``physical'' SLOC measure. In particular, physical SLOC measures are sensitive to how the code is formatted. However, logical SLOC measures have problems too. First, as noted, implementing tools to measure logical SLOC is more difficult, requiring more sophisticated analysis of the code. Also, there are many different possible logical SLOC measures, requiring even more careful definition. Finally, a logical SLOC measure must be redefined for every language being measured, making inter-language comparisons more difficult. For more information on measuring software size, including the issues and decisions that must be made, see Kalb [1990], Kalb [1996], and Park [1992].

Note that this required that every file be categorized by language type (so that the correct syntax for comments, strings, and so on could be applied). Also, automatically generated files had to be detected and ignored. Thankfully, my tool ``sloccount'' does this automatically. "


Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
Dot Merix
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 09:29
Bullseye..

I went and looked at your website.. Surely those suncrusher screens werent done in darkbasic but C++.. please tell me i'm correct.

If not, i was unaware darkbasic was capable of doing that kind of graphics.

- Merix

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Black Hydra II
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 09:40
While I only have 3500 lines in my program, I have a crappy comp so it takes about a minute or so to compile.

What I try to do is fix errors in batches. If they are simple ones and don't require testing and altering, I try to fix them all at once. I keep a notepad and I write down problems I find, if they are minor like a typo or something I try to fix them all at once.

If it isn't a critical error and I know how to fix it exactly then I usually fix it and don't bother checking it until I need to compile. Or of course you just wait a three minutes for it to compile.

"Damn had to remake account!" direct quotation from previous account.
APEXnow
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 09:41
Bullseye, my Thrust engine is made up of 12649 lines of code and this encompasses a DB syntax based sxripting engine for the project. Unfinished and being completely rewritten, but I understand where you're comming from when compiling and testing such a complex system. 23000 lines of code? What exactly does your project do?

Paul.


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The dude guy
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 10:35
@Bullseye: Could you show us what you're making?

Andrew Tamalunas
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 12:10 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 12:12
Quote: "You dont need so much code. Doom 3 had only 2700 lines of code. And winows just under 3000.

So you see, optimization is the key."


Wtf are you talking about? It says in the manual:
"There were over 500,000 lines of script code written...in the process of creating all of the graphical interfaces, computer screens, and displays"

That's not even the entire engine.

Bulleyes
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 13:52 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 14:00
@everyone

Do you guys think that I should upgrade the CPU to improve the compilation time, or the system memory? Thanks!

I am actually creating a multiplayer RTS/Action game. You guys can get more details from

http://www.badnose.com/development/development.html

There will be a trailer video and some in-game screenshots release by end of this month.

@Metrix

Those were actual game models rendered in MAX. But it looks 80% the same in DBpro as well. I was once try to use Shader to create bump mapping and specular lighting effect, it looks 95% simillar in MAX. This is one of my earlier model rendered in DBpro with shader,



But then, I had decided to stick with simple non-shader code due to the bugginess in DBpro shader routines.

I will posting the actual in-game screen shot by end of this month, so you can revisit it again if you are interested.

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Rknight
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 14:08
Woah. I can't imagine how I'd manage at 23,000 lines at the speed my PC runs at.

I got sick of it at 10,000, and started taking the axe and chopping everything into separate .dba files that can be tested independently. Every 1,000 lines of code is a real noticeable amount of time.

I recoded everything to take as few lines as possible, using loops, etc. and commenting since it made things more obscure often to do it that way.

It's the way to go. And log everything your program does with a text file stream so you can track down things fast.

But you know all this already. If somebody else has better ideas, tell me.

It took 3+ minutes for me at 10,000 and I was reading a book or doing something else, and forgetting what the heck I was coding anyhow, no good.

Still wish the compiler was faster though. Just a weee bit faster.
Rknight
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 14:09
Hmm. My guess would be CPU would be the thing to upgrade.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 16:25
What are your processor and memory specs now Bulleyes?

Bulleyes
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 16:31
AMD 2100 (1.7Ghz) with 256MB DDR and GeForce TI4200

Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.

http://www.badnose.com/
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 18:03
I would get at least 512 MB of ram and a faster processor would also help. You can see how much free ram you have in system information. It all depends on how much free ram you have (what is running) whether or not more ram will help you.

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