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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Which is better? Exclusive mode OR Full screen window?

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Bulleyes
22
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Joined: 3rd Nov 2002
Location: Cyberjaya, Malaysia
Posted: 20th Oct 2004 23:32
Which is better, Exclusive mode or full screen window?

I am currently using full screen window as DBpro has problem restoring the objects in exclusive mode when someone ALT-TAB back to Windows. But I heard that I can get a better performance on exclusive mode.

Can somebody advise me? Thanks!

Thomas Cheah (Technical Director)
Bad Nose Entertainment - Where games are forged from the flames of talent and passion.
http://www.badnose.com/
TKF15H
21
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Joined: 20th Jul 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posted: 20th Oct 2004 23:39
I never had any trouble with alt-tab in fullscreen windowed mode.
It is a bit faster than FSE, but that might not be true on all video cards.

Van B
Moderator
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Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 20th Oct 2004 23:55
It's more a smoothness issue.

Fullscreen exclusive runs at a more constant frame rate, and updates the screen according to your monitors vsync - rather than what DBPro wants. So you can't effectively get more than about 75fps in exclusive mode.

Windowed mode will update as often as it can - so you may end up with some visual tearing when there's a lot of movement at high frame rates. However the code performance is a bit better than exclusive mode.

Personally, I see no need to worry as long as your game can run at about 50fps on a reasonable PC, which is already about 3 times what the human brain can destinguish - the reason why coders go for the highest frame rates is because it stretches the minimum spec and it causes a natural blur which is necessary since we can't plug straight into TV's. In the old days, the TV would have smoothed everything out for us.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Hamish McHaggis
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Location: Modgnik Detinu
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 02:10
Full screen exclusive has a sharper image, and generally looks nicer in my opinion, but in my experience it's also slightly slower.

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Nicholas Thompson
20
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Joined: 6th Sep 2004
Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 03:03
Lol.. It shouldn;t look any different.. Can you post screen shot examples?

Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 03:28
With old cards there was a significant performance difference, but not on more recent ones (ie. anything produced within the last 2 or 3 years)


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Hamish McHaggis
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Location: Modgnik Detinu
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 04:44
It looks different for me, and no I can't post examples as Print Screen doesnt appear to work in full screen exclusive. Have you never noticed the blurring effect that occurs in desktop fullscreen mode?

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 05:20
Quote: "Have you never noticed the blurring effect that occurs in desktop fullscreen mode?"


This only happens if your desktop resolution and DB screen resolution do not match.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
anomer
20
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Joined: 11th Oct 2004
Location: City of Tears
Posted: 21st Oct 2004 12:39
@hamish you could use get image/save image in code to screenshot it. you probably know this just thought i'd post as i am bored.

~fades
Benjamin
22
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 22nd Oct 2004 00:20 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2004 00:21
Quote: "This only happens if your desktop resolution and DB screen resolution do not match."

Correct, as default dbpro uses 640x580 stretched to fit the desktop res, which can look awfull sometimes

Quote: "Personally, I see no need to worry as long as your game can run at about 50fps on a reasonable PC, which is already about 3 times what the human brain can destinguish - the reason why coders go for the highest frame rates is because it stretches the minimum spec and it causes a natural blur which is necessary since we can't plug straight into TV's. In the old days, the TV would have smoothed everything out for us."

Er then why do console games run at 60fps average?

AKA teh great Pet Rat.
Peace sells...but who's buying??
TheOneRing
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Joined: 28th Aug 2003
Location: Right here.
Posted: 22nd Oct 2004 00:41 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2004 00:41
Van B wrote:

Quote: "Fullscreen exclusive runs at a more constant frame rate, and updates the screen according to your monitors vsync - rather than what DBPro wants. So you can't effectively get more than about 75fps in exclusive mode.

Windowed mode will update as often as it can "


I'm assuming DBPro automatically waits for the vsync in fullscreen with no option? Cause I do know that DirectX allows you to do either in your applications when you call the IDirect3DSwapChain9:resent method. You can use flags like D3DPRESENT_INTERVAL_ONE to wait for the vertical retrace, or D3DPRESENT_INTERVAL_IMMEDIATE to try presenting the scene regardless of the vertical retrace status.

I think it would be a lilttle useful to be able to turn on/off the wait for vsync in DBPro... just a thought...
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2004 04:33
Hey, TheOneRing. Did you get that email I sent you? Was it you who had the scripting system?

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
TheOneRing
21
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2004 11:16
When did you send it, cause I just checked my mail, and I haven't recieved anything from you yet. I've kinda been looking for a mail from ya. Yes, it was me with the scripting engine. I'm assuming you got the mail with the source code attached?

If not, email me again. Use either [email protected], or [email protected]. If you need anything else regarding the script engine code, let me know.
Vues3d on Kalimee
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Location: NYON (SWITZERLAND)
Posted: 22nd Oct 2004 17:52
... As this post is about display, I could have a question about the Window on & window off...

In my game, when I set window on, & give parameters, game is windowed. Once I try to get the whole screen mode using window off, I get nothing than a window refresh & all stuffs stays as before (windowed).
Could someone tell me how to get the full screen mode once used the window on/off commands???

Guido
http://www.vues3d.com
Tapewormz
22
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Joined: 15th Sep 2002
Location: Winnipeg, Mantoba, Canada
Posted: 29th Nov 2004 14:31
So, you need to use API to change the desktop resolution and then launch your dbp game in windowed mode and voila? The stretched window isn't really stretched anymore and clear...neat...and ultra retarded annoying at the same time.

hai_ok
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Location: earth
Posted: 1st Dec 2004 00:26 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 00:27
make a menu. let the player decide

AND/OR

check to see if a vsettings file exists.
if not, it's the first time the user is running the game.
Create one (vsettings.ini)
ask the user if they want to choose their own settings, or if they want you to auto configure it for them.

if they let you do it...
check which modes are available.

build a "level" with some animation and eye candy (to slow things down a bit) make sure to use every effect in this scene that will be in your most complex "level". Don't over do it. Just enough to load quickly and do a realistic test. I'd even make and animate special models and things just for this.

during the mode test, switch between modes.

get the fps from each mode (noting the fastest one) and report it to the user.

If they click/select "yeah, keep these settings!"
then write them to the vsettings.ini and use them each time the game loads.

Otherwise, let them tinker with our menu, and then save the settings they like best.

Hope this helps.

You are the cattle,
I am the catalyst.
Shadow Robert
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 1st Dec 2004 01:45
Quote: "I'm assuming DBPro automatically waits for the vsync in fullscreen with no option? Cause I do know that DirectX allows you to do either in your applications when you call the IDirect3DSwapChain9 :: Present method. You can use flags like D3DPRESENT_INTERVAL_ONE to wait for the vertical retrace, or D3DPRESENT_INTERVAL_IMMEDIATE to try presenting the scene regardless of the vertical retrace status."


There is a difference between 'Wait for VSync' and 'VSync'
DirectX9 *requires* you to set a Vertical Sync speed now... while not waiting for the Vsync will allow your card to 'Read Ahead', which allows it to simply render the next frame as it sees it that given second.
Problem is, these frames are not actually seen on screen; as DirectX9 will *still* render to screen at the VSync rate.

Fullscreen DBP, will always run at 60FPS unless it can't render that fast; for the simple reason RefreshRate is set to 60Hz.
Sync Rate covers the Rendering Calls, it doesn't cover the Refresh Speed... Fullscreen is not capable of rendering past the RefreshRate, as that is what the monitor will refresh at an wait for a frame at those given times.

Quote: "I see no need to worry as long as your game can run at about 50fps on a reasonable PC, which is already about 3 times what the human brain can destinguish"


no need to worry, depending on how you update the world and control.
if your speed is directly FPS based, then the more Frames the better, but that is a bad programming practise.

You will notice the smooth difference of animation upto 90 Frames; some people can see more, but generally that is the point when you can't differenciate. You can however trick the eyes to seeing less, by mergin frames with an interframe, this is how Televisions achieve that smooth effect.

I'll make a demonstration to show you what I mean by this, as I found the technique to do this quite a very clever way to portray realism.

Quote: "the reason why coders go for the highest frame rates is because it stretches the minimum spec and it causes a natural blur which is necessary since we can't plug straight into TV's. In the old days, the TV would have smoothed everything out for us"


That is simply for the reasons I explained above. Anti-Aliasing was created to counteract that Natural Smoothness.. TVs also have the added bonus of doubling up frames, again I'll try to show this in my demonstration.

it writes out frames one half one second and another half the next.
So really TVs are rendering out 60Frames at once, but only showing 30 of them. So you have Frame 1 = Odd Lines, Frame 2 = Even Lines

This helps natural motion blur without any technology help ^_^

Quote: "Er then why do console games run at 60fps average?"


Graphics Chips/Processors can't render Alternative Lines, they have to render the whole scene, then output Alternatively.
Thus an NTSC 30 Frame/Sec Game really = 60FPS Rendered & Output, but only 30 are Rendered on the TV.


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