I Want It And I Want It Now - GameCreators Forum

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DMXtra

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 19:36

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Quote: "
or maybe they can see the difference between impusive fascination and true interest and drive that a future game developer would have to have to actually have the attention span necessary to learn anything about game development.

your kid brother will play with this for as long as it keeps his interest... then it'll go in the electronic toy box along with all the other games he got for Christmas...
"

Let me share a little nugget of knowledge with you. Maybe even knock a little sense in that thick head of yours.

In 1984 My mom and dad bought me my first computer. I played on that computer, even without a disk drive. It pushed me to learn and to try different things. Flash forward 20 years. Because of that toy computer that my parents bought me and playing video games I am now a developer who pulls in a significant amount of money. I have made a carrer choice because of that one toy computer my parents bought me.

You can say whatever you want to say, but that computer taught me a lot of valuable things and that is why I am so into computer's today. Imagine if my parents didn't buy that computer for me.
I would probably be working at Taco Bell.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.

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DMXtra

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 19:46

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while the more sane amongst us are content to ask direct questions, are content to not jump to unfounded conclusions, and are content enough not to make these ridiculous claims of unheralded empowerment... sensibly remembering what went down with previous attempts at this sort of thing.
"

Have you like checked the FAQ dude? I mean between the people that actually got to see it run in person, the FAQ that has been put together of all of the different things it can and cannot do, the video's, the screenshots, and even examples of the scripting language I think we have a very good idea what it is all about by now. I guess you haven't really seen much of it and are just making general statements about it.

Quote: "
we all want to see FPSC debut... and i'm sure we all want it to be a success... but come on now... it's not gonna become a religion now... is it...
"

This is hardly any religion, it's just people that are excited about it and asking questions. Blitz is far more like a religion and that is what I call being honest.

Lets see here

1) You are in the FPSC forum. What this means is that people are going to ask questions and get answers about FPSC. oh my! What a suprise!

2) FPSC is a very new product and people are excited about it.
Based on everything we know, we know that it isn't a product that will cure cancer, that product is BlitzMax. However, it can create games and you will have to do all the hard work as they won't make themselves.

3) If you are jealous there is always the seven year old DirectX 6 3D-RAD forum over where you are a moderator and a community member.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.

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Richard Davey

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 21:59

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Quote: "3D Gamemaker would come immediately to mind..."

I actually wrote "and don't use T3DGM as an example" in my original message, but removed it because I didn't think it would be required as it was too obvious anyway. Never mind!

They are in no way similar. However if you DO want to take it into consideration, you should know that it is one of our top selling titles and has shifted thousands upon thousands of units (well into six figures of sales, the kind most dev packages only dream of). FPSC is the evolution of this with the restraints removed. It will do equally as well, if not more so.

Quote: "and i never saw any Doom or Quake competitors come outta this one... or anything even close come from it."

That's because it was never capable of doing that, and never marketed as such either.

So back to my original question - show me something to compare FPSC with that was doomed to failure.

There appears to be a large gap between what you assume the market is, and what they actually consist of. Which is fair enough, you haven't done this for a living for the past five years and have no solid facts or stats go on, despite what is implied.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 22:47 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:11

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well... i can see that any attempt to present rational factual information here is gonna be inundated by the barrage of the fanboy inquisition....

except, in the case of Osirus, who seems to present a point of view that i can hardly argue with... sorry Osi, here we go again...

first there is DMX... who insists on posting to him self... sort of self filibustering if you will... there are three posts he has putup there, all three consisting of mostly self deprectaing babble... about nuggets, and taco bell, and me on the 3DRAD forum... he tells me to look at the FAQ, well, if he didn't have his eyes wide shut, he would've seen my post about the FAQ, right up there... then he has the gall to call me thick... hahahaha, nothing, absolutely nothing that has come from him is about the topic at hand... nor even remotely related...

but, since you wanna share nuggets DMX, here's one for you... in 1984,85 when your mommy was buying you your first computer, i was selling software from magazine advertisement, through consignment on the shelves of what was then J&RMusic World, internationally via the International TI-99er PC Club... and a few other places... VMC Software was the company name...

swallow that nugget smart boy...

next there is VanB... who usually has some relevant and helpful stuff to post... i can only surmise that he has been temporarily blinded by the light of the new god... even though the new god is not out yet... blind faith, indeed...
that surely must be the reason he quotes sales figures to me, as if that was relevant to the points i had presented... Rich does the same thing...
i'd like to see one example of a popular game selling that was made with it... hey, i have no doubts that there is at least one... surely, after selling all those many licenses to use the software, one person has come up with something notable from it...

then Van goes on to suggest that anyone who doesn't blindly believe in FPSC (even though he has yet to see hide nor hair of the actual thing) needs help... duuuhhhhhhh.... maybe he needs some help at this point... and i mean real help, the $500 an hour kind... because, anyone who is gonna offer up his son to the FPSC gods of the vapors, surely shouldn't be handing out mental advise to anyone else...

finally, there's Richard Davey... well, he has a vested interest in FPSC, so i can halfway understand his relious evangelism... (don't hit me Rich, i'm just callin em as i see em

)

but his relious zeal can't help hide the real facts...

FPSC will surely be of interest to some developers who current code with DBPro (and maybe some others), as a matter of fact... if i weren't interested in it myself, i wouldn't be here wasting my time trying to garner some real facts about the thing as opposed to buying into the wild imaginations and machinations of those who they let run loose around here with keyboard at hand, a wire to the net, and electricity to power it...

FPSC will not be the all empowering godsend that the religoius right on this forum are waiting for...

... or maybe it it will.

chances are... that it will fall somewhere far in between...

but, how can we say... it's not finished yet!!! we haven't laid hands on it yet!!! hullloo!!!

can any of you open your eyes and understand that it is still in the vapors... until you have a chance to put a hands on the thing, it may as well be 3D tv... or self iluminating paint... or hover cars... or the teleporter in Star Trek...

can't you understand plain and simple, you can't base any factual arguement on its relevance, validity, importance, ability to empower, because you haven't used it yet... it doesn't exist yet.

all of your arguements are just supposition... just like mine are...

the big difference, you see... is that i am willing to keep an open mind on the topic... while the stepford wives amongst us are just incapable of even using even the smallest part of their minds at all to make the differentiation...

and as far as me using TGC as an example, it's the most valid one that immediately comes to mind... and, as you say, you didn't disqualify it..

also, i find this statement quite interesting...

Quote: "I must state now to all who read this text: Don't compare The 3D Gamemaker with FPSC. "

by one of your guys... obviously he doesn't seem to think that TGC is the glowing jewel that you do Rich... definitely a distancing sorta post... wouldn't you agree...

--Mike

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Van B

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:15 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:16

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So your saying that because I can see how a kid would like FPSC - I'm a fanboy who is blinded by the almighty god of TGC?

- moreover I'm the one who needs help?. I tend not to quote very often, let alone myself - but can anyone tell me how Red got that conclusion from this:

I'm very interested in FPSC for my son, from what I've seen of it - and read about it for the last 6 months - I think he'll love it. Anyone who can't see how I've come to that conclusion basically needs help.

An 8 year old kid only cares about what he'll be able to do with the software, not what he could make financially. Again, it's been said before - YOU are not the target audience. I know you look upon each new platform as a money making engine - but as much as the people here like money, it's not why we're here, if it was then we'd all have gone by now.

Some people treat all this stuff as a hobby to take their mind off their job or school or whatever - anyone sitting thinking they can make a good living out of any of the products TGC sell had better be damn talented. But most people here just want to make cool games.

Van-B

It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:16 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:27

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no, that's not what i'm saying Van... don't be ridiculous...

i'm saying that you haven't even laid hands on the thing yet... yet, sight unseen, you are sooooo sure that it will make your lil genius an even smarter, wiser, more elevated form of elementary school entity...

and then, if that weren't laughable enough, you go on to suppose the all seeing and all knowledgeable self appointed authority to hand out advice on my mental state... as if you were the least bit qualified to do so.

Dr. VanB i presume...

can you start to see why i respond to you the way i do...

besides... i really hope that FPSC will be more than just a pastime for 8 year olds... and that that age group is not the primary target audience...

--Mike

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Van B

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:26

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No, I'm pretty sure that's what you just said - You know you can scroll back up the page and read what you've posted before?

Quoting again, damn I hate quoting...

next there is VanB... who usually has some relevant and helpful stuff to post... i can only surmise that he has been temporarily blinded by the light of the new god... even though the new god is not out yet... blind faith, indeed...
that surely must be the reason he quotes sales figures to me, as if that was relevant to the points i had presented... Rich does the same thing...
i'd like to see one example of a popular game selling that was made with it... hey, i have no doubts that there is at least one... surely, after selling all those many licenses to use the software, one person has come up with something notable from it...

then Van goes on to suggest that anyone who doesn't blindly believe in FPSC (even though he has yet to see hide nor hair of the actual thing) needs help... duuuhhhhhhh.... maybe he needs some help at this point... and i mean real help, the $500 an hour kind... because, anyone who is gonna offer up his son to the FPSC gods of the vapors, surely shouldn't be handing out mental advise to anyone else...

That's how it seems to me.

I'm not trying to flame you here Red, I just want you to present your argument in a less aggresive and auto-negative manner.

Van-B

It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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Van B

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:30 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:32

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Incidently Red, as has been said soooooooo many freakin times before - Lee keeps a diary, Mike keeps a diary, so does Rich but if we're talking FPSC, we've had a running commentry of the progress - from ideas for pathfinding and AI - to Lee running out of milk!. You seem to be of the opinion that we're going on blind faith, far from it - if we did'nt think FPSC would be upto much based on all the info we've had (diary, screenshots, newsletter features, a developer interview video, gameplay video, and a video of the editor working) we simply would'nt be posting here.

Van-B

It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:33 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:52

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there is no aggression in any of my arguements... if you see it that way, might i suggest that you are responding emotionally to the undeniable objectivity that makes you out to be less than logical or sensible in your assertions...

don't even try and suggest that i am being aggressive in my responses to your illogical suppositions...

you are incorrect in doing so, and it is obvious that since you have no real response, you are trying to paint me as attacking you in some form as a defensive, and a reason to invalidate my posts...

Quote: "if we did'nt think FPSC would be upto much based on all the info we've had (diary, screenshots, newsletter features, a developer interview video, gameplay video, and a video of the editor working) we simply would'nt be posting here.
"

you shouldn't even use the word think in the snippet above to describe the process you are doing... thinking involves a logical series of logical assertions and deductions... it's quite obvious that logic has nothing to do with the proces by which you've arrived at you conclusions... assume would be a better term to describe what you are doing...

and yes, i am of the opinion that you are going on blind faith... i to have read some of the worklogs (diaries)... yet i have no clear definition of the product yet... certainly not enough to make a absolute judgement on it... obviously, neither do a whole lot of other people... judging by the amount of questions posted about FPSC...
hey, they saw the videos and the inteview and the diaries too, didn't they... how is it that by reading the same stuff, only you have such clear and perfect insight as to exactly what FPSC will be...

if you infact have some reason to be the one point of FPSC answers, do share it with me... and i will defer to you as being a first hand source of knowledge... and not argue points of issue with you any further...

... otherwise, what i've said above stands as valid

--Mike

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Van B

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:39

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Who said I had to be logical or sensible; I'm a coder Red.

And I don't think you were attacking me, I said you have an aggressive attitude towards FPSC, do I have to quote every negative thing you've said in this forum?

Van-B

It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:49 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 23:57

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Quote: "Who said I had to be logical or sensible; I'm a coder Red.
"

hahahahahahaaaa... good one...

and, no... i don't have a negative attitude towards FPSC... you come to that erroneous conclusion merely because i am being totally objective and questioning...

hey, consider this scenario for a second...

wouldn't it be great if FPSC came out... and users of all levels, from the 8 year old future game developer to the 60 year old burnt out dx9 coder could look at it, start playing with it... see some potential in using it as a basis for a game that they had an idea for...

... then take off in their own direction, clicking if need be, adding advanced code if need be, supplementing the content where they wanted to...

... not being restricted in any way, shape or form.

wouldn't this be great... for everybody...

that's what i'd like to see... but, lets be realistic (not negative, just realistic)... how close to this do you think it will come...

based on the videos, the diaries, past attempts by this same company at doin something similar, based on past attempts by others that have or have not reached fruition... not based on the hairs on the back of your neck, not based on the warm fuzzies you get when you imagine yourself running through the halls of your new AAA prime time ready, DOOM3 killer... not based on the phases of the Moon... not based on whether or not Jupiter is alinged with Mars...

how close to this do you think FPSC will come.

... are ya startin to see where i'm coming from yet?

--Mike

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Mussi

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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:58

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@red, you're probably the most objective person I've ever seen in my whole life

, just don't get to objective, scares me

Specs: AMD Athlon 1800+, 256 DDRRam 266mhz, 80GB HD 7200rmp U133, Geforce4 Ti4400 128mb

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 00:05 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 00:05

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thank you... errr, i think...

anyway, i'll try not to scare you with my future objectivity...

(i'm really a wild and crazzzzy guy...)

--Mike

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Van B

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 00:15

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Yes, I see how it is unlikely that people will be making 'the next big' FPS with it, or even very many commercial titles - I firmly believe that it'll be great fun though, and it'll make TGC money, and it'll make a lot of people happy. Surely that's enough for any application that sells for 30 bucks.

The FPS engines available that would obviously be better than FPSC, all have crazy licence fees, take a lot of learning, and a team of talented people might be able to make a game using them - with FPSC your guaranteed that you'll make a game, it might not be overly original, but that's the price you pay for such an easy ride. Breathing originality into it will take work, but that's surely the end users problem.

Van-B

It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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Ian T

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 00:32

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There's no deception going on. Rich has already made it clear this isn't going to be a Doom III killer, isn't going to redefine the genre; the features have been explained clearly and quite frankly the hype is well deserved. There has been nothing like this made ever before.

Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 01:04 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 01:07

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surely, i don't think that anyone was under the impression that it would be a DOOM3 Killer... was there

but, then again, what out there is...

but, that was surely not my intention... and depending upon what we finally get... someone out there might indeed come up with something that would challenge the king...

that's the whole point of what i'm saying... lets wait for more hard before we go betting the farm on it... or writing it off...

from what i've seen, the potential is there for some advanced development... if (yada yada yada scripting yada yada dll yada yada multiplayer yada)...

and that is what i've said from the start... it's gonna take a coder and modelmaker and animator in order to do this...

but that doesn't rule out using FPSC as the jumpstart point... if yada yada and so on...

--Mike

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Jeku

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 02:31 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 02:34

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Mike:

Do you remember what it's like to be a kid?

FPSC has the *potential* of kicking creative juices into overdrive. Let's use a real-life example:

When I was in high school and not a very strong programmer, I ordered a copy of GameMaker by Pie in the Sky Software. I was so excited by the possibility of making games, I spent hours planning everything out on paper before the package came in the mail.

Finally, after tooling around with the product for a few months, I understood the limitations and the fact that *most* of my visions couldn't be realized. That hardly stopped me. I felt like I had a new purpose, to learn C++.

After ditching GameMaker, I studied hard, and now am finishing up my Computer Science degree. I was *also* working long hours the past two summers at Electronic Arts doing additional programming on commercial games. I have to give a lot of the credit to GameMaker, as before I used that, I was doing little boring programs in QBasic--- hardly an inspiring hobby.

I can see FPSC as opening the creative door in many people's minds--- letting them learn more about their creative talent than they knew before. So what if it's a "click and drag" system? If it gives inspiration, and the customer feels happy and fun in the process, how can this be anything but good?

I honestly feel that products like this (i.e. GameMaker, FPSC, etc.) can enable kids to discover that programming and logic can be fun.

--[Gang Wars of New Canada]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou

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Osiris

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 06:03

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@red

my brain

anyone can be a hero, but a soldier can be a hero five minuets longer....

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 06:39

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LOL... sorry O...

--Mike

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granada

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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 06:44 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 06:44

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I just wana have fun,thats what its all about right

dave

Windows XP Home 2002 Service Pack 1,1AMD Athlon(tm)XP 3200+ Barton 2.20 GHz ,1 GB of RAM
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 256MB DDR
http://www.granadagames.com/

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DMXtra

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Posted: 5th Nov 2004 18:19 Edited at: 5th Nov 2004 18:34

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Quote: "
but, since you wanna share nuggets DMX, here's one for you... in 1984,85 when your mommy was buying you your first computer, i was selling software from magazine advertisement, through consignment on the shelves of what was then J&RMusic World, internationally via the International TI-99er PC Club... and a few other places... VMC Software was the company name...
"

So my question to you is what happened to that person above with those "life achievements"?

I mean it's pretty sad when you did the above and now
the result is that you are using 3D-RAD with an unfinished game.

Oh, how the *** mighty *** have fallen!

Quote: "
and, no... i don't have a negative attitude towards FPSC... you come to that erroneous conclusion merely because i am being totally objective and questioning...
"

Are you being objective and questioning or arrogant and stupid?
I know what I would pick without a doubt.

Nobody says that FPSC is without flaws and yes there will be drawbacks such as rendering lightmaps and Hidden surface removal will take some time to do. Nothing is perfect and nobody is treating FPSC like a god or nothing crazy like that. People are just interested in it.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.

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Red Ocktober

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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 01:00

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ya know... if what you post wasn't so pathetic, i'd be able to respond to you in a rational fashion...

and i'd show you the pilots license i've gotten, and the plane that selling those lil baggies with floppies in em helped me pay for...

i'd show you the digital litigation support software and digital imagining over theinternet code that i've written parts of for a fortune 500 company i did the 9 to 5 for...

in VB, Delphi, C++, ASP, HTML, JAVA, and some other tools that i can't even remember...

hahahahaa... you got anything to show... hahahahahaaa...

Quote: "Are you being objective and questioning or arrogant and stupid?
I know what I would pick without a doubt. "

well now... waht you pick really only matters to you now, doesn't it...

as far as i'm concerned, you're just a series of disjointed words on a monitor screen... nothing more... i could care less what you would pick... and i don't think that anyone else cares much either.

nor do i think that your personal emotional response is worth further discussion on this public forum... don't you have any more consideration for the other people who come here looking for information and to express informed, fact based opinion...

nahhh... you probably don't...

--Mike

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Richard Davey

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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 02:02

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Quote: "hahahahaa... you got anything to show... hahahahahaaa..."

Alright, enough of this "my coding schlong is bigger than yours" nonesense. I couldn't careless if you can fly or plane, or a bloody space rocket, if you've never released a finished decent GAME you're no better than anyone else here. This is a game developers forum.

I'm locking this thread here before it descends even lower than it already has. I responded to your posts with respect and all we get back is the same old same old claiming to be "objective", which couldn't be further from the truth.

This trolling ends now.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde

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