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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] licensing

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Raver
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:09 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 06:10
You know,this licensing thing puts me off totally,same was done for 3d gamemaker,as far back as the games factory,why is it every 'click and create' type system always has licensing,i know of 2 that doesnt,1 I bought which was 3d rad,the other i will buy soon which is a6 gamestudio,you pay for the software and thats that.It truly puts me off buying the software knowing that you then have to buy a license if you create something marketable.Okay, time to sit back and watch the pies thrown at me!

djwheeler
Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:50
It's easier to make games with it and it takes more effort to make. And FPSC+Liscence < Delphi. And you can always take 60% and not buy a liscence.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
IanM
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:52
*If* you manage to produce something that is marketable, then the license fees shouldn't worry you, as the game will pay for them, especially if you distribute via TGC.

If it isn't marketable then you don't need to worry about them anyway.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:57 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 07:00
i'm going to o along with Ilya on this... at least to a point...

i think they should make the FPSC license available at one price point... and make it so that it can make decent single player games, but limited within the scope of it's intendd audience... and with no commercial capability or licensing options at all.

then, release a FPSC Pro, or FPSC Advanced, or FPSC Extreme (whatever you want to call it) and make that version an open ended development system, with additional capabilities and content... for the advanced developer...

... and charge more for that version.

--Mike
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:23
Red - your suggestion has the exact same end result as the method we're using at present, without the need for diluting and confusing the market with a variety of product titles.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:31
two product titles is not what i'd call a dilluting and confusing variety...

... but, hey, it's your product, your call... your current pricing scheme should work well enough.

--Mike
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:43
A "Pro" (or similar titled) version implies extras, features that the "other" version does not contain. This will not be the case, hence it is confusing. There is a much bigger picture here than just a single product release.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 09:14
Quote: "There is a much bigger picture here than just a single product release."


... well, not being privy to the big picture is one more reason for me to defer to your current marketing decision


--Mike
Dylnuge
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:56
Place two walls, a door, some enemies, and a gun, and bang, in 5 sceonds youv'e got a FPS. It looks exceptional, takes minimal time and effort, and requires no coding skill. The 3D Game creator licence for unlimited sales of unlimited games costed $500.00 USD.

Try this:
Buy the non-liscened FPSC
Make a small game
Distribute Freeware on Net
Place comments e-mail address on Net

If 50 people tell you they want a bigger version, and most say they will pay $20.00 USD for it, you will already make $500.00 for 1 game, then make 5 more and youve spent 6 hours, made over $10,000.00 USD, and easly find a licence worth it!

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:46
... yeah, just like that.

why hasn't anyone thought of this before...


--Mike
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 17:14
Red, with that attitude maybe you should just stay out of the FPSC forum. It seems like every thread I read here has some mental bile from you hanging off the end of it.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 00:13 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 01:29
then you should read more of my posts... i'm really an upbeat, positive attitude type peorson... as they will show.

but maybe the reason you want me to stay away from the FPSC forum is the fact that i interject a lil bit of that ole reality check serum into the mainstream of your fanboy inspired, blind faith world... and it causes you to have to think instead of blindly accepting what you see on the tv.

thinking is a verrrrry uncomfortable process for some people...

they have a hard time realizing that they do not think at all, but that they react in most cases, and their reactions are not based on fact, but on how near or how far what they sense as being directed at them appears to be pushing them out of their comfort zone...

i merely present facts... challenge assumption... offer up opinions and viewpoint based on logical deduction and extrapolation of fact...

ya see Van, i'm not a cheerleader, like you are... and that bothers you...


the guy made some ridiculous, sarcastic, and totally improbable assertions above... i responded in kind... interjecting a lil humor, and a lil bit of reality...

... now just what attitude are you referring to?



hey... huggggss and kissssses Van... from me, to you...

--Mike
Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 01:30
Quote: "i merely present facts... challenge assumption... offer up opinions and viewpoint based on logical deduction and extrapolation of fact..."


I'm still waiting for some of these "facts". All we've had so far are opinions. Which, while being perfectly valid, are still just personal opinions carrying no more or less weight than anyone elses. Which is fine, you're all entitled to them. Just please don't try and make them out to be anything other than that, because they're not.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
DMXtra
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Posted: 5th Nov 2004 19:00 Edited at: 5th Nov 2004 19:01
Quote: "
i merely present facts... challenge assumption... offer up opinions and viewpoint based on logical deduction and extrapolation of fact...

ya see Van, i'm not a cheerleader, like you are... and that bothers you...
"



oh crap!!!!

I just ran the "create a dumb troll" script by accident!
Sorry Rich!

I need to re-code the script to add in some
Intelligence instead of:

Troll
Rinse
Repeat

As you can see the A.I. really needs to be re-written.


Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 00:08 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 00:32
Quote: "All we've had so far are opinions. Which, while being perfectly valid, are still just personal opinions carrying no more or less weight than anyone elses"


...which is exactly what i've said above, so... what are you saying that's new... nothing, you are just repeating what i've said....

second of all... and most important, is that my opinions are based on fact... and are not the products of some mindless machinations, hair on the back of my neck rising, or an overactive imagination spurred on by reading the hype that you guys like to put out...

take for instance that of that poor soul who had poured their heart out to you guys in one of the other threads in the FPSC forum... http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=42106&b=21

sitting there, hopefully waiting for the FPSantaClaus to deliver them some unimagineable power to create the next great FPS without any knowledge, skill, or awareness of what doing something like that would incur...

you... who knows better, or, should know better... continue to promise them the impossible... and then go on and on... blowing smoke and waving mirrors in front of these gullible people... by your continued denial of any factual stance on the subject... and your attempts to degrade any logical or reasonable views concerning this...

it almost made me cry reading the words born out of the faith that that poor person had in you guys...


then you got people like DMX... pompons in hand, jumping up and down whenever they see you post... the ideal cheerleaders, the future yes men of the work force... they'd be cheering you on if you told em that you were gonna make a piece of software with a money back gaurantee, that would allow them to guess tommorrows lottery numbers... he's totally without hope...


can't you see that you, as one of the ministers of the faith here, have a resonsibility to these people... a responsibility to help keep their feet on the ground, and their reasoning based on, or as close as possible, to fact... as opposed to fiction and fairy tale...


up till now, because i would like to see this thing work, i have resisted presenting any hard facts...

... but if you insist Rich,

fact 1 - not one AAA game, of any game consequence has been made by anyone using TGC, no matter how experienced a developer they were... in spite of the hundreds of thousands of licenses you say you've managed to sell to a gullible public. that was your earlier attempt at something like this...

fact 2- the FPSC Level Editor is not the revolution you tout it to be, in easy, in game, click together, game level making software, and anyone who believes that is is should take a look at these...

Cosmo Creator --> http://www.radishworks.com/CosmosCreatorInfo.htm
more capable in every aspect, available now, on the downside... more expensive.

Cube --> http://cube-osx.sourceforge.net/ http://cubeengine.com/ an open source, free, fp game creator... with multiplayer... and available on the OSX platform.


don't make me post any more facts... end this tit for tat now Rich... your position is at best weak... and if you push me to, i can show how weake it really is.



--Mike
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 00:32 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 00:35
And have you seen the price for Cosmo Creator ? 2,048 euros, which is £1,427. Who around here can afford that ?
And if they want to develop exclusivly for a Mac then DBPro wouldn't exactly work out... And if you did want to use the PC version, I bet you would have a real hard job trying to work out how to use it.

Ergo, your statements are invalid.

As for "fact" 1, I believe the driving things have sold well, even though they aren't "AAA" (and thus not violent enough for me).

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Shadow Angel
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 00:32
Quote: "ya see Van, i'm not a cheerleader, like you are... "


No, it's not van, its andy vanbeck!

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/875015/parabox_1.gif' >
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[email]WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/PARABOX_STUDIOS[/email]
Shadow Angel
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 00:34
No way! Andy rules! You better listen to him

Or he'll kick you out! Heh Heh!

: ALI :

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:: PARABOX STUDIOS :: Current Project - Future Rebel
[email]WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/PARABOX_STUDIOS[/email]
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 00:55
Done a bit of tidying up here - its all irrelevant.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 01:53
Quote: "don't make me post any more facts... end this tit for tat now Rich... your position is at best weak... and if you push me to, i can show how weake it really is."


Feel free, you've done nothing but embarass yourself so far, I'm happy to see it continue.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
DMXtra
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:29 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 06:33
The truth finally comes out.

This is how Red Ocktober really feels:
Source: http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=40116

Quote: "
... before someone who is thinking of purchasing a license for DBPro or First Person Shooter Creator, or any of the products that are sold over there makes his/her final decision...

1- DON'T TAKE ANYTHING THAT YOU READ THERE AS BEING FACT, BASED IN FACT, OR EXTRAPOLATION OF FACT... when it comes to advertising hype, or what Richard Davy posts on the forums there...

their latest project FPSC is hyped up junk, and i would advise you to look elsewhere if click together in game level making is your thing...

Cosmo Creator, Cube, or any of the others out are viable options...

i'm right now in a tit for tat with Richard Daveys over there and i expect that at any moment now, one of his fanboy yes men will take my pen away...
"


That's just cold Red.
My respect for you is in the minus column now.

I am not being a troll here, just posting your real
feelings so people here won't even bother wasting their
breath saying anything to you.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:30
I've banned Red for a few days - hopefully he'll be somewhat better then

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
DMXtra
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:41 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 06:44
Quote: "
I've banned Red for a few days -
hopefully he'll be somewhat better then
"


I really doubt it. He was against it from day one.
Apparently, nobody else except him can code and yet
he uses 3D-RAD, which is a much broader version of a game
maker than FPSC.

I just always wondered why he thought he was better than everyone
but yet failed to really show why. oh, well too bad he couldn't be a lot more mature. I have seen kids that are more mature than what he posted.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 09:08
TCA - I have removed your ban on him, sorry mate. Whilst being highly immature, that isn't a reason for a ban and quite frankly I think it would just make matters worse. His Blitz post makes everything crystal clear (as if it wasn't anyway) and shows his "objective" posts for what they really are, troll bait.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 09:34 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 11:16
well Richard, i must take my hat of to you...

it took a lot on your part, for you to see past the noise, and do the right thing...

... in spite of the fact that i might not be on the top of your best buddies and nice guys list.

for your impartial decision as far as this is concerned, i must THANK you...


as far as the post on the Blitz board...

look in the same thread over there slightly above the one that you were directed to...

Quote: "and, i must say, they've certainly been giving their audience a lot of what they are asking for... and appear to be very responsive to the current trends...

... or at least, they've been trying to.

you certainly have got to give them credit... i do... as a matter of fact, i've licensed DBPro recently...

i'm currently in the middle of evaluating DarkBASIC Pro, 3DGS A6, Blitz, and Torque to transfer over the sub game that i have 99.9% completed in 3DRAD... and i've just finished playing with shaders (another thing we don't have yet) in DBPro.

yes... the answer to your question is a resounding yes... i am, indeed, quite insane... redoing a game that is for all intents and purpose, complete... just to get the right mix of graphics (that i can't seem to get with 3DRAD, in spite of coming as close as i could with a DX6 based game engine) via the use of shader effects...

so i've been in the middle of the mix over there, trying to get a grip on what's really going on... trying to separate the fact from the fiction...

and to be honest, DBPro does have a lot of potential, and they are aggressively adding useful code facilities to their 'arsenal' of tools for developers (and there are some quite capable and sharing coders and artists over there)... "


an excerpt from the post above the one that DMX selectively quoted.

as you can see, DMX isn't presenting the whole picture... and this post was made prior to the foodfight over here...

and i can also direct you to quite a few posts over there where i actually stand up for DB and try to introduce some logic to the fanboys on that side of the fence...


@ DMX...

1- i don't want your respect... i don't want anything from you... don't latch onto me as someone to look up to, or follow around the net... go kiss up to Richard, or or one of the mods here... anyone else but me...

2- all i got for you is cold hard facts and truth... and you've shown that you are incapable of dealing with those.

3- and as far as me using 3DRAD... hey, i can show you video from code of the sub sim in Blitz, 3DGS, 3DRAD, C++ , and even Dark Basic... so that 3DRAD nonesense your hanging onto just doesn't wash...

can you show me anything? anything at all???

actually, don't even bother... go find someone else to aggravate...


again, my THANKS to Richard Daveys for his objective and impartial ruling here... in the light of your positive actions, i must also reconsider my decision as far as continuing working with DBPro as well.


@ TCA
the license for the Home Edition of CosmoCreator is $295... substantially less than what you stated above... and what i told you before your lil effort at tidying above...

and the Cube code costs nothing... and is multiplayer enabled...

and both are available now...



--Mike
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 17:32
Direct me to the price list.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:25
I'm not too sure that this topic actually has a topic as such, but I'll put in my opinion anyway.

I'm not as of yet convinced of the expandability of the FPSC. The scripting system looks good, ability to create your own AI, it seems easy enough, and pretty flexable, but the other aspects of scripting from what I've been shown/told seem to be more like a list attributes you can change in order to further configure your game, and make it more original. There doesn't seem to be any ability to create your own entities (by that I mean APSECTS of the game, not the FPSC entities), you just seem to be able to combine certain entities in order to make something a bit different.

FPSC looks to be revolutionary in the sense that you can make something that looks pretty good so quickly, but then you can take it further if you want (though how much further I don't know). $300 for that CosmoCreator is still 6 times as much as FPSC (quite a lot if you're a kid wanting something to make your own games on), and it looks to be (LOOKS to be) slightly more geared towards experienced programmers, wanting to code an entirely different game, not just a simple clicked together FPS game.

Quote: "sitting there, hopefully waiting for the FPSantaClaus to deliver them some unimagineable power to create the next great FPS without any knowledge, skill, or awareness of what doing something like that would incur... "


I think it has been made clear that that isn't what FPSC is capable of. I do think that the amount some people are hyped up about FPSC is quite scary. I just hope that TGC can deliver what they're hoping to get.

That said, FPSC does look like damn good fun, and looks to get results very quickly, so I'll most likely be buying it just for the fun aspect rather than the multi-million pound commercial game aspect. And a thought I just had is, the more games that are sold commercially with FPSC, the more money TGC gets, so therefore (in theory) the more money and more time will be spent on things like DBPro (which is what we all want no? ).

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:28
Quote: "as far as the post on the Blitz board... look in the same thread over there slightly above the one that you were directed to"


I read the whole thread. It's just a forum policy to not ban people on here for what they have said elsewhere. Your two posts on the Blitz forum are quite at odds with each other, in an almost Jekyl and Hyde manner, the second being direct flame-bait and, might I add, personally insulting towards me. You can say what you like about our products, but when you attack induviduals outside of these forums, you're well below the belt.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:30
Quote: "There doesn't seem to be any ability to create your own entities (by that I mean APSECTS of the game, not the FPSC entities), you just seem to be able to combine certain entities in order to make something a bit different."


Give me an example of an entity you'd like to create and I'll find out if it's possible for you or not.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Rob K
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:48
Red,

I think you still misunderstand the nature of the product. FPSC will only cost £28, from what Lee said at the convention, it is mainly designed for a younger audience who want to click 'n play to create games, except with a bit more flexibility. I don't imagine that there will be that many commercial games produced, but you never know.

FPSC is not designed to create the next Half-Life or the next Doom, and it won't. Its difficult to judge how good FPSC's graphics can be, because Lee has, to quote Richard Davey, "the design sense of a one-eyed colourblind monkey." I would say that at the moment the graphics are looking somewhere between Quake 2 and Quake 3, which isn't bad for a product put together by only 3 or 4 people in only a couple of years.

Regarding the "hype", TGC are simply trying to sell their product. Having seen a fairly extensive demonstration of FPSC, I don't think that anything they have said is misleading or false.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:49
Well, to be honest I'm not really wanting to create a specific entity, I just would like to know in general what is acheveable and how far the scripting can go. I did use the example of a turret in a previous post, so I'll use it again now. The things you'd have to do would probably be...

- Load the turret object, presumably as an entity
- Detect if the player is facing and near enough the turret
- Detect if the player presses a key, and if so...
-- Put the players weapon away
-- Lock the player/camera to the turret, so that it always points in the same direction
-- Change the player controls so the player is able to rotate the turret limbs so that the turret can be pointed up and down and left and right. Possibly also limit the rotation of the turret (ie. not full 360 degree rotation)
-- If the player presses a key then fire a bullet/grenade/other projectile from the turret, with appropriate effects, and ability control the timing and ammo of the turret
-- If the player presses another key then return to normal gameplay, but store the turret rotation and ammo etc. in memory

I'm not expecting anything at the moment really, at risk of it not being possible , I just would like to know what is possible.

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Ali M Oldboy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 23:15
He's right, answer at the giveaway...


- Shoot 'Em Down! -
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 01:51 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 01:55
@ TCA
price list --> http://www.righthemisphere.com/products/radishworks/
scroll down to the middle of the page.

@ McH
you're absolutely right, it is a lil pricey... actually, it's a lot pricey...
and the cost of the commercial license is definitely a commitment... FPSC will have an advantage there...
but, i can only say that in speculation, seeing as no definite pricing has been announced for the commercial version of FPSC.

@ RobK
your description of FPSC is more credible than anything i've seen so far... but if you don't see any misleading hype, then you may be looking at a different place from the rest of the crowd asking all these questions on this very forum... c'mon man, look at some of the questions... look at some of the statements some of em are making...

@ Richard Davey
those two posts were directed at the fanboy mentality on either side of the fence... one the Blitz side, the second the DB side...
fortunately, there are many people who realize that the tool is not the sole arbitrator of what comes out of it... many people are on both forums and use both Blitz3D and DBPro...

also, how would you expect me to react after being banned, simply for trying to present a rational viewpoint to otherwise irrational viewers... and having one of your over reactive moderators try and demonstrate that he is king of the universe,operating without restraint, ignoring the rules that give him his authority, and clearly misusing that authority...
it is very much to your credit, as i have said, that TCA's overreaction was corrected...

as for my overreaction, and i admit it being an overreaction, i must, in all fairness, offer an apologize to you.
i was operating under the false assumption that you were responsible, and not someone else, whom you depended on to act responsibly, but who failed to do so. i hope that he has learned that he is not god... and as a mod, his authorities and action are really not dependant on his personal whims...

--Mike
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:08 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 02:24
Quote: "and having one of your over reactive moderators try and demonstrate that he is king of the universe"

Maybe not the universe, but I am the king of my own domain.

Quote: "and as a mod, his authorities and action are really not dependant on his personal whims...
"

No, but it does help if people dont talk twaddle (and aren't rude). And you weren't banned because of any Blitz posts.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:32 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 02:40
well TCA... as you can plainly see, your domain extends all the way from the front, to the end of your imagination...

... and since i'm not part of what goes on in your imagination, i feel somewhat better that more rational senior admins can keep you in check and under control when it comes to forum matters... of which i am a part of, and your actions can affect me.

and you should be aware, that as a designated officer of this forum, who has been given authority by the administrators of this forum to act on their behalf, your actions can be deemed complicit and as proxy for the administrators of this site...

i would take a more responsible and less godlike attitude when adminstering here based on that awareness...


Quote: "No, but it does help if people dont talk twaddle "

well... i didn't remember seeing 'twaddle' being mentioned anywhere in the rules of the forum... can you point out where it is for me...

like i said, your personal whims have been kept in check and under control by the forum admins... seeing as you appear to be incapable of doing so... especially unfortunate given your position as a moderator.

you should take some guidance from Richard, and act accordingly...

but that's just my opinion...


--Mike
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Location: At home
Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:35
Yes, it is just your opinion.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:38 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 02:40
yes... and i can share it here now with you, because more rational heads are actually in charge...

--Mike
David T
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Location: England
Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:41
Red, shut up.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:43 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 02:55
Quote: "David T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator

Joined: Tue Aug 27th 2002
Location: England, UK Posted: 6th Nov 2004 19:41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Red, shut up.
"


yessir David... as you command... oh powerful Oz...

what about TCA... can ya make him shut up too???


then we can all move on to something more productive... like a discussion of FPSC licensing.... maybe...

and we might also try and aquire a lil more manners... for, in the circles i move in, telling someone to shut up, especially if you are a moderator on a forum, might be reason for someone to file a complaint to the forum admins... as it may be construed as badgering of a forum user, in complicity with another user... and definitely would be frowned upon as not in spirit with the intent of the forum rules... if not actually, in fact, be a direct violation of these rules...

ahhhh, but never mind... i won't be filing any complaints... you are just being the emotional boys that you are, and i understand...

now, if you are finished with your ill mannerisms, can we move on to something more productive... like FPSC...

or if not, can i call upon a senior forum administrator to lock this so it doesn't go much further...



--Mike
IanM
Retired Moderator
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Location: In my moon base
Posted: 7th Nov 2004 02:59
I'm locking this thread now, as it's gone totally off topic.

If you have anything further to say (or continue gloating about) do it via email.

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