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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Conservatives should vote for Kerry

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Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 07:02 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 07:03
Mod's you might as well mark this one flamebait cause it is going to get hot.

As the provocative title suggests, Conservatives should vote for John Kerry.

Now before you flame me or roll your eyes hear me out. My radical thesis is derived from a few key facts concerning both Bush and Kerry. First and foremost, Bush is not a Conservative. I'll start by defining Conservativism.

Traditional Conservatism, at least in the U.S., can be defined as consisting of 3 principles.
1. Small, non-intrusive Government.
2. Fiscal Responsibility. Government should live with-in it's means.
3. Caution. An Avoidance of massive change.

Bush holds none of these positions. In fact, he holds just the opposite.

I'll start with small, non-intrusive government.

Since Bush came into office he has consistently favored big government solutions and has yet to veto any bill that has passed his desk. Consider the following facts:

1.Even though we now have GOP control of the White House, the Senate and the House, the bloated $2.25 trillion federal government has grown more rapidly on President Bush's watch than it did under Clinton.

2.Social welfare programs under George W. Bush have grown by $96 billion in just two years, versus $51 billion under six years of Clinton, according to economist Stephen Moore of the Club for Growth.

3.Pork-barrel spending rose by 21.6% from 2001 to 2003 according to CAGW President Tom Schatz.

4.Aided by a Republican-controlled Congress, President Bush is on track to become the first chief executive since John Quincy Adams in the 1820s to complete a full term without vetoing one bill.

(For the above 4 items and more: http://www.alanchapman.org/libertyvault/gwb.html)

5.Has increased welfare substantially in what is probably historically the greatest expansion of Medicare ever.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/12/08/national1142EST0534.DTL

6.Huge education spending bill (i.e. Federal Local School Board Bribery Act) which liberal Democrats love that doesn't mention a word about choice or local control.

7.Food stamps for immigrants.

8.Largest spending bill in American History. The first to exceed 2 trillion dollars.

9.The Airport Security Bill that completely takes control of over 28,000 screening jobs. Now it seems that they don't even have to be high school graduates either. The big difference, they can't be fired.

10. 100 million for welfare moms.

11.Hugely Expanding Clinton's Amercorps boondoggle that all conservatives railed against.

12.Kowtowing to law breaking illegal immigrants by proposing amnesty. Speaking of illegal immigrants who sneak across the border; "And we've got to respect that, seems like to me, and treat those people with respect," he added. "I remind people all across our country: Family values do not stop at the border."

13.38 Billion for a new Homeland Security bureaucracy that allots a 20% increase for border control. Guess what. It goes to our problematic Canadian border, with not a dollar spent on the Mexican border. Read it for yourself.

14.The Orwellian "Patriot Act" that gives Federal authorities carte blanche to rifle through all of your digital communications and essentially, rob your house without notice.

15.71.5 billion over 10 years for government health care.

16.Not releasing appropriate documents on Clinton and FBI corruption.

(Source for the above 11 quotes: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/618938/posts)

If the above doesn't convince you that Bush is in favor Big Government I don't know what will. Oh wait, here is something that will scare Small Government conservatives sh#tless(and me too!). You can't possibly call G.W. Bush a small government conservative after reading the following.

Quote: "President Bush’s little-publicized New Freedom Commission on Mental Health has proposed comprehensive mental-illness screening for all Americans. If this proposal is carried out, which is Bush’s intention, no adult or child will be safe from intrusive probing by “experts,” backed by drug companies, who believe that mental illness is woefully underdiagnosed and therefore that many millions of people ought to be taking powerful and expensive psychiatric drugs. Schools and doctors’ offices will become quasi-psychiatric monitoring stations."


Quote: "Rep. Ron Paul of Texas tried to forbid the federal government from funding mental-health screening, but the House turned down his amendment to the appropriations bill for the Department of Health and Human Services. Paul, a physician, said the program was a usurpation of parental rights, pointing out that parents can already be charged with child abuse for refusing to give their children Ritalin for alleged attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. He said, “Psychotropic drugs are increasingly prescribed for children who show nothing more than children’s typical rambunctious behavior.Many children have suffered harmful effects from these drugs.”"


http://www.fff.org/comment/com0410b.asp
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20041016-115126-9840r.htm

As for Fiscal Responisbility, the general consensus amoung economists are that Bush's economic policies are deeply flawed and contributing to the lack-luster recovery.

From the Economist(hardly a left-wing newspaper):

Quote: "In an informal poll of 100 academics, conducted by The Economist, Mr Bush's policies win low marks. More than 70% of the 56 professors who responded to our survey rate Mr Bush's first-term economic policies as bad or very bad. Fewer than 20% give positive marks to Mr Bush's second-term economic agenda, and almost six out of ten disapproved. Mr Kerry hardly got rave reviews either, but his economic plan still fared better than the president's did. In all, four out of ten professors rated Mr Kerry's economic plan as good or very good, but 27% gave it negative scores. "


Quote: "Despite their diverse assessments of today's economy, the professors are overwhelmingly critical of the central plank of Mr Bush's economic policy—tax cuts. More than seven out of ten respondents say the Bush administration's tax cuts were either a bad or a very bad idea, and a similar proportion disapproves of Mr Bush's plans to make his tax cuts permanent. By contrast, Mr Kerry's plan to roll back the tax cuts for people with incomes over $200,000 wins the support of seven in ten of them."


http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3262965

A letter to the president from about 200+ leading economists, including over 50 from Havard Business School, Bush's alma mater, have denounced his policies as dangerous.

Quote: "As professors of economics and business, we are concerned that U.S. economic policy has taken a dangerous turn under your stewardship. Nearly every major economic indicator has deteriorated since you took office in January 2001. Real GDP growth during your term is the lowest of any presidential term in recent memory. Total non-farm employment has contracted and the unemployment rate has increased. Bankruptcies are up sharply, as is our dependence on foreign capital to finance an exploding current account deficit. All three major stock indexes are lower now than at the time of your inauguration. The percentage of Americans in poverty has increased, real median income has declined, and income inequality has grown.

The data make clear that your policy of slashing taxes – primarily for those at the upper reaches of the income distribution – has not worked. The fiscal reversal that has taken place under your leadership is so extreme that it would have been unimaginable just a few years ago. The federal budget surplus of over $200 billion that we enjoyed in the year 2000 has disappeared, and we are now facing a massive annual deficit of over $400 billion. In fact, if transfers from the Social Security trust fund are excluded, the federal deficit is even worse – well in excess of a half a trillion dollars this year alone. Although some members of your administration have suggested that the mountain of new debt accumulated on your watch is mainly the consequence of 9-11 and the war on terror, budget experts know that this is simply false. Your economic policies have played a significant role in driving this fiscal collapse. And the economic proposals you have suggested for a potential second term – from diverting Social Security contributions into private accounts to making the recent tax cuts permanent – only promise to exacerbate the crisis by further narrowing the federal revenue base."


http://www.openlettertothepresident.org/

There are quite a few nobel prize winner's in that list as well, notably William F. Sharpe and Joseph E. Stiglitz.

I would suggest giving it a good read and think twice about whether you can call a president who spends like it is going out of style a fiscal conservative. Conservative's should exercise restrain and show caution when they spend. This man has yet to veto a single spending bill that has passed his desk. Our government is not living with-in it's means and is putting our future as well as the future of our children on charge card.

And to all of those out there that don't think that deficits matter I give you this:

Quote: " A significant contributor to the deficits in both years is the interest the government pays on this debt: approximately $318 billion in FY '03, and likely more than $360 billion in FY '04. The entire FY '04 budgets for NASA and the Departments of Interior, Energy, Justice, Homeland Security, Housing & Urban Affairs, Transportation, Labor, Education, and Agriculture together total $378 billion, about the same as the interest payment on the national debt."


http://people.howstuffworks.com/election-issue4.htm

Our payment on debts is seriously crippling our ability to fund our government. We spend insane amounts of money on our interest from our debt and ignoring the deficit we have will only make this worse. If we pay down the debt we will have more money to spend on goverment programs like Homeland Security to defend us from terrorists, or to make tax cuts and give money back to the middle-class.

The final segment of Conservativism is caution, and an avoidance of massive change.

Boy, oh boy, does Bush not fit this one. I could mention the massive Medicare reform or his insane Tax-cuts-are-the-solution-to-everything approach to the economy, but since I've already dealt with those I'll probably move on to his single most daring move, the Iraq War. I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq(yet), but I will point out the complete lack of caution and disregard for the warnings issued during the build-up to war.

A lot of Republicans, including John McCain, have criticised the administration's handling of the war citing looting and lack of police operations have lead to an increase in lawlessness that has allowed the terrorists to breed.

What most people don't know is that plans to account for these contingencies were drawn up in 1999. They sat unused and the man who drew them up is more than a little pissed:

Quote: "So early in 1999 he ordered that plans be devised for the possibility of the U.S. military having to occupy Iraq. Under the code name "Desert Crossing," the resulting document called for a nationwide civilian occupation authority, with offices in each of Iraq's 18 provinces. That plan contrasts sharply, he notes, with the reality of the Coalition Provisional Authority, the U.S. occupation power, which for months this year had almost no presence outside Baghdad -- an absence that some Army generals say has increased their burden in Iraq.

Listening to the administration officials testify that day, Zinni began to suspect that his careful plans had been disregarded. Concerned, he later called a general at Central Command's headquarters in Tampa and asked, "Are you guys looking at Desert Crossing?" The answer, he recalls, was, "What's that?"

The more he listened to Wolfowitz and other administration officials talk about Iraq, the more Zinni became convinced that interventionist "neoconservative" ideologues were plunging the nation into a war in a part of the world they didn't understand. "The more I saw, the more I thought that this was the product of the neocons who didn't understand the region and were going to create havoc there. These were dilettantes from Washington think tanks who never had an idea that worked on the ground."

And the more he dwelled on this, the more he began to believe that U.S. soldiers would wind up paying for the mistakes of Washington policymakers."


http://sf.indymedia.org/print.php?id=1668144

Just so you know, this guy isn't some liberal hippy peace-nik. He is a retired marine who was in the service for 35 years and thinks:

Quote: " "I'm not saying there aren't parts of the world that don't need their ass kicked,""


The guy has also been in touch with the intelligence community even after he was retired and from what he heard the analysts weren't convinced there was any threat:

Quote: "Though retired for nearly two years, Zinni says, he remained current on the intelligence through his consulting with the CIA and the military. "I did consulting work for the agency, right up to the beginning of the war. I never saw anything. I'd say to analysts, 'Where's the threat?' " Their response, he recalls, was, "Silence.""


I'd suggest reading the above article. It is rather eye-opening.

Here is another one from Zinni that is also worth reading:

Quote: "General Anthony Zinni, former commander of Middle East Central Command, says the Iraq war was "a big mistake" and there was no plan for the reconstruction."

http://www.international.ucla.edu/print.asp?parentid=11162

He is also not alone is his assesment of the failures of this adminstration to proceed with caution.

Quote: "President Bush is hearing increasingly bleak warnings that the U.S. occupation of Iraq is heading for failure — from Republican and Democratic members of Congress, current and former officials and even some military officers still on active duty."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0523-08.htm

(Note: If anyone objects to me using commondreams here because they are too liberal I'll gladly link you to the original latimes article. However, you'll need to register to view it which is why I'm using commondreams and not latimes as a on-line source.)

But if you think this isn't enough to convincingly argue that this adminstration lacks caution I'll refer you to the mother of all whoopers:

Quote: "The same intelligence unit that produced a gloomy report in July about the prospect of growing instability in Iraq warned the Bush administration about the potential costly consequences of an American-led invasion two months before the war began, government officials said Monday.

The estimate came in two classified reports prepared for President Bush in January 2003 by the National Intelligence Council, an independent group that advises the director of central intelligence. The assessments predicted that an American-led invasion of Iraq would increase support for political Islam and would result in a deeply divided Iraqi society prone to violent internal conflict.

One of the reports also warned of a possible insurgency against the new Iraqi government or U.S.-led forces, saying that rogue elements from Saddam Hussein's government could work with existing terrorist groups or act independently to wage guerrilla warfare, the officials said. The assessments also said a war would increase sympathy across the Islamic world for some terrorist objectives, at least in the short run, the officials said. "


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/09/28/MNG5D904AB1.DTL

The Bush Administration knew about these risks and yet they choose to ignore them in favor of invading. Their recklessness has costed us dearly in Iraq and shown that reasoned consideration of the facts is the last thing on their mind.

But even if all of this is true why would a conservative vote for Kerry? I can't seriously argue that Kerry is more conservative than Bush, but that doesn't mean that a vote for him is not in keeping with conservative principles. You see, the problem with Bush is that he is so extreme he has polarized the party. Long-time Republican supporters are looking in askance at a leadership that puts most liberals to shame in the size and scope of it's spending. Quite a few long time Republican's are voting for Kerry, not because of his principles, but because a Bush defeat in 2004 would help signal the end of the neo-conservative reign and allow the moderates to wrestle control back to a more Small-Government kind of Republican party.

Here is an article from American Conservative magazine describing just that:

Quote: "It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush. To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. Because he is the leader of America’s conservative party, he has become the Left’s perfect foil—its dream candidate."


Quote: "Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be, and his continuation in office will discredit any sort of conservatism for generations. The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy. Add to this his nation-breaking immigration proposal—Bush has laid out a mad scheme to import immigrants to fill any job where the wage is so low that an American can’t be found to do it—and you have a presidency that combines imperialist Right and open-borders Left in a uniquely noxious cocktail.

During the campaign, few have paid attention to how much the Bush presidency has degraded the image of the United States in the world. Of course there has always been “anti-Americanism.” After the Second World War many European intellectuals argued for a “Third Way” between American-style capitalism and Soviet communism, and a generation later Europe’s radicals embraced every ragged “anti-imperialist” cause that came along. In South America, defiance of “the Yanqui” always draws a crowd. But Bush has somehow managed to take all these sentiments and turbo-charge them. In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends, by businessmen and the middle classes, by moderate and sensible liberals. Never before have democratic foreign governments needed to demonstrate disdain for Washington to their own electorates in order to survive in office. The poll numbers are shocking. In countries like Norway, Germany, France, and Spain, Bush is liked by about seven percent of the populace. In Egypt, recipient of huge piles of American aid in the past two decades, some 98 percent have an unfavorable view of the United States. It’s the same throughout the Middle East"


Quote: "If Kerry wins, this magazine will be in opposition from Inauguration Day forward. But the most important battles will take place within the Republican Party and the conservative movement. A Bush defeat will ignite a huge soul-searching within the rank-and-file of Republicandom: a quest to find out how and where the Bush presidency went wrong. And it is then that more traditional conservatives will have an audience to argue for a conservatism informed by the lessons of history, based in prudence and a sense of continuity with the American past—and to make that case without a powerful White House pulling in the opposite direction.

George W. Bush has come to embody a politics that is antithetical to almost any kind of thoughtful conservatism. His international policies have been based on the hopelessly naïve belief that foreign peoples are eager to be liberated by American armies—a notion more grounded in Leon Trotsky’s concept of global revolution than any sort of conservative statecraft. His immigration policies—temporarily put on hold while he runs for re-election—are just as extreme. A re-elected President Bush would be committed to bringing in millions of low-wage immigrants to do jobs Americans “won’t do.” This election is all about George W. Bush, and those issues are enough to render him unworthy of any conservative support"


http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html

This paticular piece right here is definately worth reading:

Quote: " That's it, I've had it.

I've been a registered Republican since I pulled my first lever in a voting booth, and I've voted as a loyal Republican for Republican candidates consistently every year. I am 55 years of age. I am considered a right-wing Christian conservative and strict constitutionist who knows the Framers of the Constitution expected strict adherence to that original document unless and until it is amended.

You don't get much more conservative and constitutionally-minded than I am, and that is why I just cast my Oregon vote-by-mail ballot for Democrat John Kerry as the next president of the United States. So did my wife -- and she's a very independent thinker. I know there are thousands of lifelong Republican/Independent conservatives who are going to do the same thing on November 2nd, because they've written and told me so."


http://www.sierratimes.com/04/10/20/carlworden.htm

I won't quote too much more of the above as you must read it for yourself. He really rips into Bush and his reckless disregard for civil liberties. The piece above should really appeal to any libertarians in the crowd.

To continue the support from the right for Kerry I give you the Economist(hardly a left-wing newspaper):

Quote: "With a heavy heart, we think American readers should vote for John Kerry on November 2nd
"


http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?Story_ID=3329802

John Eisenhower - Republican for 50 years. Voting for Kerry.

Quote: "The fact is that today’s “Republican” Party is one with which I am totally unfamiliar. To me, the word “Republican” has always been synonymous with the word “responsibility,” which has meant limiting our governmental obligations to those we can afford in human and financial terms. Today’s whopping budget deficit of some $440 billion does not meet that criterion.

Responsibility used to be observed in foreign affairs. That has meant respect for others. America, though recognized as the leader of the community of nations, has always acted as a part of it, not as a maverick separate from that community and at times insulting towards it. Leadership involves setting a direction and building consensus, not viewing other countries as practically devoid of significance. Recent developments indicate that the current Republican Party leadership has confused confident leadership with hubris and arrogance.

In the Middle East crisis of 1991, President George H.W. Bush marshaled world opinion through the United Nations before employing military force to free Kuwait from Saddam Hussein. Through negotiation he arranged for the action to be financed by all the industrialized nations, not just the United States. When Kuwait had been freed, President George H. W. Bush stayed within the United Nations mandate, aware of the dangers of occupying an entire nation.

Today many people are rightly concerned about our precious individual freedoms, our privacy, the basis of our democracy. Of course we must fight terrorism, but have we irresponsibly gone overboard in doing so? I wonder. In 1960, President Eisenhower told the Republican convention, “If ever we put any other value above (our) liberty, and above principle, we shall lose both.” I would appreciate hearing such warnings from the Republican Party of today. "


http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=44657

Iconoclast. Hometown paper of Bush. Supported him in 2000. Supports Kerry instead.

Quote: "The publishers of The Iconoclast endorsed Bush four years ago, based on the things he promised, not on this smoke-screened agenda.
Today, we are endorsing his opponent, John Kerry, based not only on the things that Bush has delivered, but also on the vision of a return to normality that Kerry says our country needs."


http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/Columns/Editorial/editorial39.htm

I could go on, but frankly there is no need. Real conservatives are waking up to Bush's dangerous idealism and contempt for principles the Republican party once stood for. He is a Big Government Conservative and the threat of him ruining the Republican party and our country is causing conservatives to cast their vote in favor of Kerry. Not necessarily because of his policies, but because he will allow a return to normalcy. With a GOP controlled senate, he can do little harm. Bush, however, can do far greater harm. His fiscal irresponsiblity and eagarness to use government to solve whatever crisis comes along clearly marks him as not a conservative and not worthy of a vote from principled conservatives.

@Slight-OT

For those true believers out there who still like Bush, here is a little satire for you.

http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=249
Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 07:43
Interesting thread, but why post it after 99% of America has voted ?


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 07:51
First off, I'm sure a Neo would love that useless post(from the real 87) removed (hint hint).


Quote: "Conservatives should vote for Kerry"


Right there, I was lost at first. If Ann Coulter heard that she'd kill herself (we can only hope she reads this ).

Quote: "7.Food stamps for immigrants."


I love that one, for the shear irony. You come into our country, we give you free food.

Yeah, Bush has always been in favor of Big Goverment (one of my most hated things about him). Him and his father are 2 of the same. Spend alot, and let the next person clean up the mess. Clinton got stuck with a Deficit caused by that nice spender Bush Se. People seem to look aroud that when they accuse Him of selling Technology and materials. We needed to. We we're in a very bad deficit, and unless people like taxes, it has to be that way.

Quote: "The Bush Administration knew about these risks and yet they choose to ignore them in favor of invading. Their recklessness has costed us dearly in Iraq and shown that reasoned consideration of the facts is the last thing on their mind."


I'll be fair, I think they knew some of it. Don't think they knew all of it.

When we think about the war though we have to remember Powells "Break it you buy it" statement. WE have broken it, and are paying for it now. We are paying a large cost in Iraq, and anyone whom does not belive that, must not know what Fallujah is. Now that we're in, we have to finish this though. So i'm just hoping if Kerry gets voted in tonight, that he presses down and finished this campaign in Iraq.

Quote: "nteresting thread, but why post it after 99% of America has voted ?"


Dosen't matter, cause it seems from most (there are a few good ones, although a few that act like asses [i'm looking at you jimmeh, i still like ya though]) of the people that post here are < 18 and are to stupid to poke a hole anyway.

Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 07:55 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 07:57
Well i don't think for the future. I'm sure most people will forget this in 4 years.

BTW, I would like everyone to know, after being annoyed for an entire day, I did vote. As futile as it is in Utah. (Down with the EC).

The Real 87
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 07:58
I just gave this thread the respect that it deserves.

Bush is a conservative, if he had the choice he would practise conservative economics

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:01
Lemme teach you something

conservative economics = not in a deficit

The Real 87
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:02
let me teach you something

war + 9/11 = deficit

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
empty
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:05
It's not (only) the wars + 9/11 that converted a $120bn surplus to a $450bn deficit (within 4 years).

Play Nice! Play Basic!
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Version 1.00 available now!
The Real 87
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:08
give me another thing that Bush caused that caused the deficit and maybe I will change my views on Bush being a conservative.

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:08
And to retort

9/11 = Attack on terrorism

Attack on terrorism should not = Unprecidented move to Iraq

Iraqi war = False pretences

Attack on Terrorism = almost non existent

To some it up:

We started after 9/11 the war on terrorism. We then get this "Info" that says Iraq has these Bad ass WMD's. We pretty much leave OBL on his own in the mountains (which from the looks of the latest video, he is living nicely in a city). We go full on in Iraq and search for these "WMD's". In this process we get half the world pissed at us because they look at the same evidence and don't se a reason to go in. So then we boycott them.

And now, where are the WMD's? Where is this "Cheers from the Iraqis for the troops in Iraq" that Cheney said? And Why is it still going on if it was supposed to be a "in out mission". Break it, you buy it, and we really broke it.

The Real 87
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:10
good, you understand Kerry's teams spin...



I wash my hands of this liberaly owned thread.

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
Eric T
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Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:11
I am not a liberal, I hate kerry equally for everything that I hate bush for.

If you want to know, I voted Libertarian.

Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:16
@Mouse

Interesting thread, but why post it after 99% of America has voted

That's partly due to my own lazyness. I started this last Saturday but didn't really get around to it till today. I considered not even posting it but I promissed I'd post a political thread and I figuared I might as well not let all of the work I'd put into it before go to waste.

@The Real 87

give me another thing that Bush caused that caused the deficit and maybe I will change my views on Bush being a conservative.

Did you read my post?

Here I'll post it again in cased you missed it:

Quote: "Although some members of your administration have suggested that the mountain of new debt accumulated on your watch is mainly the consequence of 9-11 and the war on terror, budget experts know that this is simply false. Your economic policies have played a significant role in driving this fiscal collapse. "


http://www.openlettertothepresident.org/

That letter is from over 200 of this countries leading economists. What more do you need?
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:18
@The Real 87

good, you understand Kerry's teams spin...

Err...what spin? Did he post something that was incorrect? Or are you just trying to cry "liberal" and duck out of any serious debate?
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 08:19
I am the real "No Spin Zone", o'rielly's got sh*t on me.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:17
I wouldn't vote for any of them. If 90% of america stopped voting maybe they would think and pick someone worth voting for next time. We always get stuck with a lose/lose situation

Raver
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:26
yeh,well said Lost in Thought,it isnt the presidents that make decisions anyhow,they are merely muppets,with sum1's hand stuck up their a$$, and are pretty much expendable, as a certain jf.kennedy soon found out....I say kill all presidents,prime ministers,and man,would I so like to see the royal family mass murdered.In fact, lets have a nice clean start and blow up the planet!!

djwheeler
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:27
Quote: "I am not a liberal"
I am! But only when the leader's french. I'd probably vote pot party.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:31
@Lost in Thought

If 90% of america stopped voting maybe they would think and pick someone worth voting for next time.

No. They'd just do whatever the hell they wanted. Do you think politicians are really gonna care if you don't vote? Hell, they'd probably shake your hand and thank you for handing them control of the government...after they removed your wallet from you via taxes.

I've never gotten the don't-vote-to-protest-the-system idea. Voting is the only method to keep politicians from trampling all over you. The threat of losing their next election is what keeps them in fear and the major reason why they try to appease you. If you don't vote, they don't have to worry about what you think and then can do whatever they feel like.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:41 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 10:43
I have never once counted the votes anyway. I am not so sure the votes are "counted" correctly. They seem to do what they want to anyway All they do is do whatever it takes to get in there and then they can do what they want. I'll bet most americans don't even know about 90% of the stuff you posted at the first of this thread. If everyone did know and didn't like what they were doing ... what would we do about it? Wait 4 years and then don't elect him again? Well the damage would already be done. Our whole system is screwed up. Americans should be able to revote at any time to have a national revote to have a president (or any other elected official) removed. Then I would vote every time. This is just my opinion.

[edit] And I think the 90% of people not voting would help. Because we could take off work on that day and all storm the white house. If 90% of americans stormed the white house they would listen.

Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:47
@Lost in Thought

I'll bet most americans don't even know about 90% of the stuff you posted at the first of this thread.

Depressingly, I think you are right. Most people seem to be ill-informed.
Ilya
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:48
Quote: "I am not so sure the votes are "counted" correctly."


They aren't. People count them and put them into a computer. Votes should be digital.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:50
'They would listen'? Listen to what? Even if uprising an anarchy proved better than a corrupt but still functional republic (which it certainly would not be), "we"'d accomplish nothing.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Jimmy
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 12:14
Hey how about whoever deleted my posts shoves it up the tail pipe.

Seriously.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 12:29
Quote: "'They would listen'? Listen to what? Even if uprising an anarchy proved better than a corrupt but still functional republic (which it certainly would not be), "we"'d accomplish nothing."


Yeah but a man can dream can't he

JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 13:03
Quote: "8.Largest spending bill in American History. The first to exceed 2 trillion dollars.
"


it's called a WAR. not only did we have the war in iraq, but we had the war in Afgahnistan (or however you spell)

PLUS we had the terrorist attack on 9/11, COMPLETELY beyond Bush's control, and that KILLS our loans

lets add this together, 2 Wars within four years. PLUS a MASSIVE terrorist attack = LOADS of money (you know, about 2 trillion dollars)


<EricT> Raven, Ravey, Richard Davey
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 13:15
That's good stuff, I didn't have to time to read it all, but I liked what I read.

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ionstream
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 13:22
Quote: "Traditional Conservatism, at least in the U.S., can be defined as consisting of 3 principles.
1. Small, non-intrusive Government.
2. Fiscal Responsibility. Government should live with-in it's means.
3. Caution. An Avoidance of massive change. "


Yes, it could be defined like that, but it would be incomplete/incorrect. There's NO REASON that a Conservatism would be defined that way.

Also, your statement about Bush not fitting any of the traits of being a Conservative is based purely on opinion, which we are prone to disagree with.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 13:33
Doesn't everybody disagree with each other in one way or another?
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/opinion1.gif

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 13:56
Quote: "PLUS we had the terrorist attack on 9/11, COMPLETELY beyond Bush's control"


The problem with plane hi-jacking is that not enough people have guns. If everyone was made to carry a gun then how could you hi-jack a plane? You'd need a bomb on the plane. And keeping a bomb off a plane is not out of their control.

So you say some people don't need to have guns? I can see that. So we have a second and possibly better option. You make it so there is no possible way to get from the back of the plane to the cockpit once the plane takes off. You can talk to each other but not actually get to the pilots (or even shoot through to the pilots). They can still be notified in case of emergency and land the plane.

Option #3 (goes along with option 2) is to have the planes built so that the tower can take control of the plane in case of an emergency. We have the servo technology. We use it everyday in our plant and it is very reliable and accurate.

There are so many ways to prevent plane hi-jacking.

They need to take all that money protecting our borders (from canada?) and put it into placing a couple of people on each plane in the air if they don't do anything else. I wouldn't mind paying extra tax dollars for stuff like that. But they get almost $10000 from me each year all together and pretty much blow it from what I can see.

SeaScape
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 17:41 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 18:32
Quote: "I love that one, for the shear irony. You come into our country, we give you free food."


@ Eric T

I came into the United States as an immigrant from Canada after marrying my American wife, and I am now a Permanent Resident (citizen in about 1.5 years). Before you make such blanket statements regarding all immigrants, take your head out of the sand. No government official ever gave me any food.

Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 18:18
@Darwin

lets add this together, 2 Wars within four years. PLUS a MASSIVE terrorist attack = LOADS of money (you know, about 2 trillion dollars)

If you bothered to read anything I wrote you'd have noticed this:

Quote: "Although some members of your administration have suggested that the mountain of new debt accumulated on your watch is mainly the consequence of 9-11 and the war on terror, budget experts know that this is simply false. Your economic policies have played a significant role in driving this fiscal collapse."


http://www.openlettertothepresident.org/

That is a letter from about 200+ of the nation's leading economists. I'd pay heed to their words of caution if I were you.

@ion stream

There's NO REASON that a Conservatism would be defined that way.

Traditionally, that's how it has always been in the U.S. though I'll freely admit that some brands of conservativism don't fit into that paradigm.

Quote: " * Social conservatism is generally dominated by defense of existing social norms and values, of local customs and of societal evolution, rather than social upheavel, though the distinction is not absolute. Applied to foreign policy, a mild social conservatism manifests itself in Rudyard Kipling's defense of the Indian natives against British imperialism and in American opposition to the "forced democratization" of post-war Iraq, but conversely, betraying the complexity of ideology, the vast majority of American conservatives in keeping with their accepted values fully support the current effort at democratization or, rather, liberation (in the sense that liberty increases dramatically). In its more extreme foreign-policy manifestations, social conservatism breeds nationalism, tending towards isolationism, on the order of Pat Buchanan's anti-immigration, anti-internationalist stance.

* Fiscal conservatism is the stance that the government must "live within its means". Above all, fiscal conservatives oppose excessive government debt; this belief in balanced budgets tends to be coupled with a belief that government welfare programs should be narrowly tailored and that tax rates should be low, which implies relatively small government institutions.
"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative
Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 18:26
It's part of the deal. And I do believe it's a very, very important part. But that 'open letter to the president' seems more constructed to get people to vote for Kerry than to actually analyze the situation-- why doesn't it take into account the job gains near the end of his first term, for example? A bit slanted...


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 18:35
@Mouse

why doesn't it take into account the job gains near the end of his first term, for example?

What makes you think they didn't? I don't understand where you are getting that impression.
SeaScape
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 19:24
This is just a general observation from a Canadian living in the United States...

Some Americans really need to wake up and see what is happening in their own backyard. You have more starving children in this country than ever before, you have an educational system that is a complete joke (more like a laughing stock), you have many Americans going without proper medical coverage, you have many mentally-ill people not receiving proper treatment, the attitude of some Americans makes me want to puke, and you have a leader, President George Bush, that deceives the world in volumes.

I have always wanted to move to the United States, and my wife will attest to this, ever since I was a little boy. Now I am here by the grace of God with my lovely wife. I love it here, but I see many problems around me.

I used to be a conservative-thinking person when I was in Canada, but that has changed dramatically when I see all of the social problems in the US, supposedly the best country on the planet. For a country so rich in resources, you sure treat your own disadvantaged citizens like garbage. The market cannot help people in society that really need it, now can it? Conservatives in reality just do not give a damn about their fellow citizen - they just live for money. Not true? Look around you and really open your eyes.

I work in the educational world and I tutor Math students while working on my degree to become a Mathematics teacher. I am astonished at the lack of basic Mathematical skills with many middle school students. It really makes you wonder what the hell is going on in this country, where you care more to send soldiers to die in Iraq for nothing, wasting billions of dollars, when there are children who cannot even add or subtract simple fractions. Nor can they do long division. This is sad people... Your whole future generation of adults are going to be lacking in skills that are needed in the work place. Very sad...

Republicans here will say - We must make Iraq free. Bah! Iraq being free does not have anything to do with your life in being a decent human being that cares about his fellow American citizen. People in this country are really going to regret what looks like another four years of George Stupid Bush and Dick Heart-Attack Cheney.

I am going to work for a better vision in this country, one that does not revolve around money. I am going to contribute to society by helping your children learn Mathematics more easily. I am gifted in Mathematics and Computer Science, and many people have told me that I would make an excellent teacher. It took me 20 years to realise what my gift to this world will be. I am 41 right now, so I can still have a nice career as a teacher. It is going to be fun...

Before some of you go criticise immigrants who come here, why not take a look at some of their motives? Not all immigrants are stupid and useless like some of you seem to think. I also work as an Instructional Assistant (Distance Learning), helping teach adults English and US Citizenship. Yes, a Canadian teaching US Citizenship to an immigrant. I have met some hard-working immigrants who have degrees, but because of the way the American educational system is structured, their degrees are worthless here. Sad... I met a doctor that had to wash bloody dishes while working on the same degree here. That is not right...

Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 19:25
Quote: "Conservatives in reality just do not give a damn about their fellow citizen - they just live for money."


Typical socialist generalizations and propaganda, and furthermore, complete nonsense.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 21:41
Quote: "@ Eric T

I came into the United States as an immigrant from Canada after marrying my American wife, and I am now a Permanent Resident (citizen in about 1.5 years). Before you make such blanket statements regarding all immigrants, take your head out of the sand. No government official ever gave me any food."


Well, i am sorry for that one. I am mostly referring to the immigrants we have here. You see, almost the total workforce in my county are illegal immigrants from Mexico. They get all these "Advantages" even though they work half assed for a 8 hour a day job. They are not citizens of the US, and it angers me sometimes.

Quote: "Republicans here will say - We must make Iraq free. Bah! Iraq being free does not have anything to do with your life in being a decent human being that cares about his fellow American citizen. People in this country are really going to regret what looks like another four years of George Stupid Bush and Dick Heart-Attack Cheney."


Well, we can solve this. We grab a microwave and a calculus book...

Eric

Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 21:58 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 21:59
Quote: "Traditional Conservatism, at least in the U.S., can be defined as consisting of 3 principles.
1. Small, non-intrusive Government.
2. Fiscal Responsibility. Government should live with-in it's means.
3. Caution. An Avoidance of massive change.
"

well...after reading that i skipped the rest of this thread because that's not my definition of conservatism...it may be the political one, but my definition is more of a moral one...

so still no way i'd vote for kerry

"We make the worst games in the universe."

bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 23:17
Quote: "Well, i am sorry for that one. I am mostly referring to the immigrants we have here. You see, almost the total workforce in my county are illegal immigrants from Mexico. They get all these "Advantages" even though they work half assed for a 8 hour a day job. They are not citizens of the US, and it angers me sometimes."



what makes you think they work half assed for only 8 hours a day? :s

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ionstream
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 02:53
Quote: " Doesn't everybody disagree with each other in one way or another?"


What I meant was that Neophyte wasn't providing statistics or data, just his opinion on how Bush was doing.

Either way, the REAL conservatives win, as Bush was reelected.

This image is not visible to idiots.

Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 03:08
He's certainly a damn sight more conservative than Kerry with his global test crap


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
SeaScape
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 04:24
@ Mouse

Quote: "Typical socialist generalizations and propaganda, and furthermore, complete nonsense."


Really? Sorry, but I am no socialist. I am a realist - look what is going on around you in America. Don't look at the surface only, because this country has many problems that the Republicans and Democrats never seem to address properly. This country needs a viable third political option, because as it stands, the system here does not work for the working man.

That is all I am going to say...

Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 04:45
Oh yes, it does. What worked in the first place. The libertarian agenda. Not a socialist agenda, which has never worked at all, any only caused pain and grief in the countries where it was and is attempted.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
SeaScape
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 09:30 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 13:19
Quote: "Well, i am sorry for that one. I am mostly referring to the immigrants we have here. You see, almost the total workforce in my county are illegal immigrants from Mexico. They get all these "Advantages" even though they work half assed for a 8 hour a day job. They are not citizens of the US, and it angers me sometimes.
"


@ Eric T

Referring to the immigrants here? What the hell am I? A space alien? I am an immigrant here, that just happens to come from Canada.

The total workforce in the country are illegal immigrants from Mexico? Are you serious? That is the biggest laugh I have had today. I hate to burst your soap bubble, but immigrants that come here from all over the world are not just from Mexico. That is such a bloody stereotype you made. Also, Canadians like me come here, and Americans move abroad. So what is your point?

You know, I have met so many people like you here. I don't even think American-born citizens that think like you, deserve citizenship here in the USA. I am Caucasian and my wife is Hispanic (Mexican descent). Got a problem with women with olive to brownish skin? I have more of a right to citizenship here than you do, with those racist views.

Eric T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 15:15
When i refer to here, i am talking about my area. I work construction supplys, and in my buisness, it sickens me that people who don't have legal citizenship.

Please note the word "county"... not country, county!

Research a bit on Tooele County and you'll learn my point.

Quote: " I don't even think American-born citizens that think like you, deserve citizenship here in the USA"


FYI, I'm not american born. I obtained my citizenship at a young age though.

Quote: ". Got a problem with women with olive to brownish skin? I have more of a right to citizenship here than you do, with those racist views."


Considering i'm olive skinned italian (part irish to, figure that ) I only have a problem with people whom assume. Cause when you assume, you make a ass outta you and me.

Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 15:22 Edited at: 4th Nov 2004 15:27
Olive-skinned and freakin man-frictionly sexy.

Yes mucho mexicans in Utah. Mostly illegal. I worked with a few legals for a while. Great guys.

Athlon, what I don't think you understand is just how GREAT AND AWESOMEly dumb ERIC IS. He can eat 2 lions with one stoner.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Eric T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 15:31
I decided to say this a second way:

If thinking that when I work 8 hours a day, in my own country, and i pay taxes every year, then a Illegal Alien (which is the politiclly correct term) comes along, and makes the same amount of money, dosen't understand english (the main language spoken in this country) and dosen't pay taxes every year for doing the same exact job as me, it really gets on my nerves. Then when 4 more come along... it really sickens me.

I do not mind Legal Immigrants, but when it comes to Illegal ones, they can go back to where they came from.

SeaScape
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 03:29 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 03:31
@ Eric T

My apologies for assuming you were American-born... I agree that all illegals should be kicked out of the US, but on the other hand, some Americans actually help to create this environment by paying such pathetic wages to pick fruit, etc.

Yeah, I can see your point regarding illegal immigrants. I don't know why Bush doesn't do more to stop the problem. I remember seeing something on the news a while ago, actually showing illegals running over the Arizona border, and it was live too. Isn't that nice?

I heard on the news recently that the biggest group of immigrants (legal) to this country is now Asians. Everyone will eventually be a minority...

The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:48
Quote: "14.The Orwellian "Patriot Act" that gives Federal authorities carte blanche to rifle through all of your digital communications and essentially, rob your house without notice."


Don;t make blanket acusations about the Patriot Act, I had to read and analys EVERY sinlge word of it. Here is the only section that says anything even to the general idea of warentless searches...

Quote: "SEC. 206. ROVING SURVEILLANCE AUTHORITY UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT OF 1978.

Section 105(c)(2)(B) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(c)(2)(B)) is amended by inserting `, or in circumstances where the Court finds that the actions of the target of the application may have the effect of thwarting the identification of a specified person, such other persons,' after `specified person'."


Let me make this part bigger...

Quote: "where the Court finds"


This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop

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