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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Conservatives should vote for Kerry

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The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:50
this means that a judge does not have to give a warrent, however they have to give authorization. A warrent in this situation takes way to much time, time enough for the suspect to flee.

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
HZence
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 12:34
Still the same know-it-alls...

Actually, conservatives should have voted for Bush. Afterall, it's they're "duty as Christians"...


Ausukusa :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 16:40
have you read the patriot act HZence?

I spent like 200 hours reading it and analysing it, and then I wrote a like 20 page paper about it.

This is my counting program
do: print "87" : loop
Neophyte
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:14
@The Real 87

Apparently you didn't read the Patriot Act very throughly.

Quote: " * Section 215 allows the FBI to order any person or entity to turn over "any tangible things," so long as the FBI "specif[ies]" that the order is "for an authorized investigation . . . to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."
* Section 215 vastly expands the FBI's power to spy on ordinary people living in the United States, including United States citizens and permanent residents.
o The FBI need not show probable cause, nor even reasonable grounds to believe, that the person whose records it seeks is engaged in criminal activity.
o The FBI need not have any suspicion that the subject of the investigation is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power.
o The FBI can investigate United States persons based in part on their exercise of First Amendment rights, and it can investigate non-United States persons based solely on their exercise of First Amendment rights.
+ For example, the FBI could spy on a person because they don't like the books she reads, or because they don't like the web sites she visits. They could spy on her because she wrote a letter to the editor that criticized government policy.
o Those served with Section 215 orders are prohibited from disclosing the fact to anyone else. Those who are the subjects of the surveillance are never notified that their privacy has been compromised.
+ If the government had been keeping track of what books a person had been reading, or what web sites she had been visiting, the person would never know."


Quote: "Is Section 215 Constitutional?

* Normally, the government cannot effect a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime. Section 215 violates the Fourth Amendment by allowing the government to effect Fourth Amendment searches without a warrant and without showing probable cause."


http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=11054&c=130

A warrent in this situation takes way to much time, time enough for the suspect to flee.

No, it doesn't. Besides the government can already...

Quote: "The government already has the authority to prosecute anyone whom it has probable cause to believe has committed or is planning to commit a crime. It also has the authority to engage in surveillance of anyone whom it has probable cause to believe is a foreign power or spy - whether or not the person is suspected of any crime. "


It is utterly unnecessary and dangerous to give the government the powers that the patriot act gave them.

@Everyone else

Looks like I was right about Bush being not very conservative. Here is an article from FOX news no less:

Quote: "His aides boldly spelled out Bush’s new big-government conservatism. Chief of Staff Andrew Card said that “this president sees America as we think about a 10-year-old child,” in need of Bush’s firm parental protection. Communications guru Karen Hughes told the “NewsHour with Jim Lehrer,” “This is not the grinchy old ‘Let’s abolish the Department of Education’ or ‘Shut down the government’ conservatism of the past.”"


Quote: "If Rove had read their book, he might have paid more attention to voters like the gun-owning woman lawyer in Reno who told me she usually donates substantial sums to Republican candidates but couldn’t even vote for this Republican president; or Republican investor Doug Andrews in Colorado who told the Financial Times that “the world is much more dangerous as a result” of the Iraq war; or Missouri nurse Terry Hammer who voted for Bush in 2000 but was appalled by the anti-gay marriage amendment; or financial consultant Kim Mecklenburg, featured in a Moveon.org ad, who says she has always voted Republican but feels “betrayed [by] reckless spending”; or Missouri farmer Faye Pavelka who likes tax cuts but only if you also reduce spending; or Internet millionaire Eric Greenberg who raised $100,000 for Republicans in 2000 but this year raised far more for Democrats because of what he sees as Republican restrictions on stem-cell research."


Quote: "You don’t have to look just at individual voters. Many libertarian, limited-government and traditional Republican opinion leaders either endorsed Kerry or refused to make an endorsement, including columnists Andrew Sullivan, Stephen Chapman and Robert George; The Economist magazine; and almost 60 newspaper editorial pages.

At least 36 newspapers switched from Bush in 2000 to Kerry in 2004, including the Orlando Sentinel, Chicago Sun-Times, Los Angeles Daily News and Memphis Commercial-Appeal. The Orlando Sentinel complained that “Mr. Bush has abandoned the core values we thought we shared with him — keeping the nation strong while ensuring that its government is limited, accountable and fiscally responsible.”"


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137512,00.html

He calls it Big Government Conservativism. I think I agree.
DrakeX
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 08:51
"Conservatives in reality just do not give a damn about their fellow citizen - they just live for money"

hey mr. "blanket statements are bad," think about what your typeing before you post it. that statement is very unfair and untrue. it's no different than a racist saying that someone is worthless because of the color of their skin.

neophyte - not arguing with you, but i noticed that although this topic is called "conservatives should vote for kerry," you don't actually give much evidence as to why kerry is any better. you talk about him a bit in the economy section of your post, but other than that, it's just explaining why bush is bad. just curious - what makes you think that kerry would be the better choice? and i mean what makes kerry better, and not bush worse.

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
Neophyte
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 11:03
@DrakeX

just curious - what makes you think that kerry would be the better choice? and i mean what makes kerry better, and not bush worse.

It is a bit late in the game for this since the election is over. I had originally intended to comment on Kerry more, but I had waited too long to finish up work on it so I was left with writing that post on election day with the results pouring in as I hit the "Post" button.

I suppose one of the main theme's I was trying to strike upon was that democracy without accountability is worthless. Bush has swung far and hard into neo-con territory and completely abandoned traditional conservative values.

As many of the links I've posted on the original have argued, voting against Bush and getting him defeated would force the Republican party to re-think its sudden dive into neo-con territory. This could allow the moderates to take control back of the Republican party and return to fiscal responsibility, prudence in foreign affairs, and limited government. A Kerry victory would entail no serious risks as he faces a Republican congress so any proposal he proposed that was too far left would be shot down.

Remember, I'm trying to argue this from the vantage point of a conservative. Conservatives aren't going to find a lot in Kerry's positions to get all excited about. I guess what I'm saying is that politics is chess not checkers. Sometimes you've got to make small sacrifices to make big wins.

For me, all of Bush's outrageous mistakes are enough to vote him out of the white house. Bush needs to be held accountable.

But if you want me to approach the issue from the point of view of a moderate, then I suppose I could work something up. However, I'm not a huge pro-Kerry guy. He was just the more logical choice between the two since I value fighting terror, perserving civil liberties, government living with-in its means, and possibly getting out of the Iraq war without the region completly imploding and becoming a cesspool of terrorism.
ionstream
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 12:29
Good crap, you made give a link to the ACLU, you are truly from hell.

This image is not visible to idiots.

Neophyte
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 14:33
@ion stream

Good crap, you made give a link to the ACLU, you are truly from hell.

What is wrong with the ACLU?
Chris K
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Neophyte
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 12:07
@Iraq War supporters

To any War supporters still out there, what do you make of this?

Quote: " Prosperity now looks like 70 percent unemployment. A recent study found that if the food ration programme set up by Saddam Hussein's regime during the U.S.-led sanctions was disbanded, more than 25 percent of Iraqis would starve to death."


Quote: " But Antonia Juhasz, project director at the International Forum on Globalisation based in San Francisco in the United States says that orders to this effect by the disbanded Coalition Provisional Authority have allowed the economy of Iraq to be sold from under Iraqis.

In a paper 'The Hand-Over That Wasn't: Illegal Orders give the U.S. a Lock on Iraq's Economy', she wrote that order no. 39 allows for "(1) privatisation of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) 'national treatment' -- which means no preferences for local over foreign businesses; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licences."

Iraqis are therefore not given preference in reconstruction efforts in their own country. Foreign corporations such as Halliburton and Bechtel have been allowed "to buy up Iraqi businesses, do all of the work and send all of their money home," Juhasz said. "They cannot be required to hire Iraqis or to reinvest their money in the Iraqi economy. They can take out their investments at any time and in any amount." "


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=655&e=8&u=/oneworld/20041109/wl_oneworld/6573975361100012947

The Iraqi economy is in shambles and it looks like their country has been sold out from under them. With 40 year ownership clauses I don't think that this situation is going to change anytime soon.

Do you still support the war in Iraq? If so why?

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone could support this war. Yeah, Saddam was a godawful SOB, but he isn't the worst thing that could happen to that region. With 18,000 new terrorists as a direct result of the war in Iraq and an Iraqi people who seem to be worse off now then they were under Saddam is the war really justifiable anymore? I don't think anyone could say that this is going to get better anytime soon. There is no indication of the violence abating or those 40 year ownership clauses expiring anytime soon.

Also, the whole we fight terrorist over there so we don't have to fight them over here excuse for the Iraq war just got blown apart offically.

Quote: " Experts agreed that transnational and stateless terrorist groups, with their cells of operatives across the world, are quite capable of multitasking. "Believe it or not, Al Qaeda can actually do two or more things at once," Venzke said."


Quote: " "The picture it conjures up is that somehow the terrorists have to make it through Iraq to get to here, it's a front line," Jenkins said.

"In fact, that is not true geographically. . It is also not supported by what we have seen since 9/11 and since the invasion of Iraq. What we have seen is not only a continuation of significant jihadist attacks worldwide but in fact at an accelerated pace." "


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&ncid=2027&e=3&u=/chitribts/20041110/ts_chicagotrib/iraqwarlittleproblemforalqaedaexpertssay

Of course, it was obvious to anyone with a little brains that attacking Iraq would not make Al Qaeda forget about America or stop them from attacking us. But at least now that an expert on the subject has weighed in on this assumption being outlandish we can at least dispense with it summarily.
Mx5 kris
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 12:23
I still support the war. These facts you have stated are true. But this is because they are a new Goverment. They have been revolutionized, and are still being in revolution. Look, the same happend in the us when we had the revolutionary war. Econo0my at a low, and starvation. There was not enough food and clothes, so starvation was the cause. Revolutions cause death. The french revolution. Starvation and death. This is a natural fact. Economy will perk when the new goverment is in, and Iraq is in order. This has always been. Afghanastan is the same.
Quote: "Of course, it was obvious to anyone with a little brains that attacking Iraq would not make Al Qaeda forget about America or stop them from attacking us. But at least now that an expert on the subject has weighed in on this assumption being outlandish we can at least dispense with it summarily. "


yes it would. It would go faster, as more nations will finally realise we have protected them, and in that they will finally help us. Without us germany would falter, infact the european economy will falter. Soon these countries will realise to help us, in economy and all, that is the only way to have economy and military. If our economy falls-your guys's are not going to get better. If our army falls-you guys are screwed. Fact is, we have our roots in you, so by the end you guys will end up fighting with us. This means the war on terror will go faster.


I only read part Neophyte, I will read entire post....

Mx5 kris
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 12:27
Ok, we will not have the control over the iraq. We will open trade, but by that time, bush not president. Hopefully we will have a more economically strong republican in office the next 4 after bush. Understand that logically, many people there are skeptic. Have they had democracy for years though? No. They do not know how it works, so they do not realise democracy yet.

Neophyte
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 16:46
@mx5 kris

These facts you have stated are true. But this is because they are a new Goverment.

No, it is because of mismanagement of this war and a burgeoning insurgency that the war in Iraq is failing.

Look, the same happend in the us when we had the revolutionary war. Econo0my at a low, and starvation

I can find no evidence of either of these conditions being true because of the American Revolution. Please cite your sources.

There was not enough food and clothes, so starvation was the cause.

This was true only for some in our fledgling militia, not the general populace.

The french revolution. Starvation and death.

I haven't found any evidence for this at all. Please cite your sources.

This is a natural fact. Economy will perk when the new goverment is in, and Iraq is in order.

There in lies the key. If Iraq gets order the economy could perk. But there is little sign of that occuring anytime soon. You also haven't really bothered to read any of my links. Thanks to a lack of any protectionist trade policies the Iraqis are being forced to compete with foreign investors who have way more economic clout then they do. The result is obsurdly low prices with the Iraqis just unable to compete. Couple this with foreign investors allowed to buy Iraqi industries with 40 year ownership leases and you have yourself a recipe for economic hardship that will last for many years to come.

This has always been. Afghanastan is the same.

Errr...you haven't actually looked at Afghanistan have you?

It would go faster, as more nations will finally realise we have protected them, and in that they will finally help us.

Tell that to the Spanish who had their own little 9/11 not too long ago.

Kid, you need to join reality here. We have not made the world safer. Terrorist attacks have increased. Anti-Americanism as at an all time high throughout the entire world.

Without us germany would falter, infact the european economy will falter.

Without germany/EU our economy would collapse.

Soon these countries will realise to help us, in economy and all, that is the only way to have economy and military. If our economy falls-your guys's are not going to get better. If our army falls-you guys are screwed.

You seem to be laboring under the impression that europe doesn't have an army. You are wrong. They do.

Fact is, we have our roots in you, so by the end you guys will end up fighting with us.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but that is hopelessly naive. They are not going to come running to our aid anytime soon.

We will open trade, but by that time, bush not president.

We already have opened trade. That is part of the problem. Read the links.

Hopefully we will have a more economically strong republican in office the next 4 after bush.

Or better yet. An economically strong democrat.

*sigh*

How I long for the good ole Clinton years.

Understand that logically, many people there are skeptic. Have they had democracy for years though? No. They do not know how it works, so they do not realise democracy yet.

And yet, this didn't stop you from proclaiming earlier "Economy will perk when the new goverment is in, and Iraq is in order." You seem to believe that the new government will bring prosperity, but you don't think the Iraqis can handle the new government. Why the contradiction in your views?

@Mouse

I knew you were as excited about Ashcroft leaving as I was, but it appears he will be replaced by someone just as bad.

Quote: " Gonzales drew criticism after the terrorist attacks in 2001 when he wrote a memo in which Bush claimed the right to waive anti-torture law and international treaties providing protections to prisoners of war. That position drew fire from human rights groups, who said it helped lead to the type of abuses uncovered in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.

Specifically, Gonzales' memo said the Geneva Convention that had long governed the treatment of prisoners did not apply to al-Qaida or the war in Afghanistan. The memo said some of the Geneva Convention's provisions were "quaint."

Gonzales also has defended the administration's policy — essentially repudiated by the Supreme Court and now being fought out in the lower courts — of detaining certain terrorism suspects for extended periods without access to lawyers or courts."


However, it appears that some people don't exactly think he is all that bad.

Quote: "Two Senate Democrats normally critical of Ashcroft — one of the most powerful and polarizing members of Bush's Cabinet — sent positive signals about Gonzales' future on Wednesday.

"It's encouraging that the president has chosen someone less polarizing," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "We will have to review his record very carefully but I can tell you already he's a better candidate than John Ashcroft.""


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/bush_cabinet

Of course, a blind chimp could be better than Ashcroft, but I don't share Schumer's optimism. This guy worked to get torture legalized in this country. I don't find him much better than Ashcroft at all.
Mx5 kris
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 17:14
ok starting. Conditions were the exact same in the american revolutionary war, if you have not learned this, you have not ever gone to simple history classes. 1. Death
2. Starvation and lack of water
3.lack of recources.

By afghanastan the same, I mean the same conditions, not to smart there are you?

Yah, but the world really still sucks in economy and military. We leave, they go down cause they hate us, not my problem, they should have listened..

European armies are still nothing. If we felt the threat we could bomb their butts to france...wait its gone to.

Not rushing to our aids-I mean more of a "sorry, we will try to support you with our worthless crap"

@ clinton: Dude, he started taxing social security, raised taxes, and did some bad crap that got him impeached, almost.

No it deos not contridict. When they have the goverment (I said they do not understand it now) they will have an economic perk.

Van B
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 17:36
I just love this political stuff - really, all I want to do is listen to more politics for pre-schoolers. I'm sure all our non-American soldiers dying out there find your sentiments heart warming.

Locking this.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.

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