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Geek Culture / Can someone please explain the American Voting System to me?

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 03:45
They get us either way though, I mean pity help anyone who likes to smoke or drink, or drive a car, or buy a house, or have a life. The thing is, people often assume that Scotland is much like parts of England, like Newcastle especially - but really Scotland is a scaled down country. If you don't live in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, or Dundee - you can basically forget about ever earning over £40,000 per year. The salary differences 50 miles from where I am now are about double, same goes for house prices too. With that much variation in lifestyle, segregation is damn quick. Scots like to think of themselves as welcoming friendly people, we're actually world renowned for our hospitality. That's fine, but when you can't walk through an unfamiliar town without encountering some sort of 'hassle' there's something severely lopsided about our hospitality.


Van-B


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Philip
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 07:53 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 07:55
Quote: "
conservative were in when the winter struck as it was caused by the Miners Strike. as the national grid was in it's infancy reliant very heavily on coal mines, these strikes ment that there was only a limited amount of power. as such in an effort to conserve the power the 3day weeks were implimented; this span from business' to schools. any form of education/entertainment which required electricity became banned with the exception of television and radio, which were cut down to 10am-10pm days.
this didn't matter as much because your electricity would be cut off from 10pm until 7am anyways, and in random areas this was cut even further back. You would be told via radio/tv hense why they were still active.

while the labour government didn't exactly rectify the situation correctly, they were neither the initial cause; nor the government which compounded the problem.
"


Thanks Raven but I now feel like I was wasting my time, words and effort in my previous post. In that post I quite categorically said that it was CRITICALLY important to check your facts before posting. Perhaps I should have added: "and don't rely on anything "John" says either". I'm sorry to say that if he told you what you've just quoted above, you have been very seriously misled.

The Conservative Party was NOT in power during the Winter of Discontent. The Winter of Discontent was 1978. Callaghan's Labour government ruled from 1976 to 1979. If you don't believe me, feel free to read the same information straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/page127.asp

Quote: "
During the 'Winter of Discontent' in 1978, industrial action over pay policy severely damaged the governments authority. The government lost a confidence motion on 28 March 1979 by just one vote a classic piece of high-tension political theatre.
"


This is a really fundamental historical fact which still echoes today. Saying the Conservative Party was in power during the Winter of Discontent is as bad as saying the French won the Battle of Waterloo, that Julius Caesar was Swedish or that Gutenberg's printing press was invented by the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs.

You really, really need to check your facts before posting. Also, reflect on this: as each and every single one of us bases our judgments on our grasp of the facts, if our grasp of the facts is poor, so too become our judgments.

I'm not trying to be rude to you. I appreciate you weren't alive during 1978 (unlike me who had to live though it). Frankly, I blame our country's increasingly poor education system. It really alarms me that we are failing our kids by allowing them to leave school without a satisfactory education. Whoever it was who was supposed to cover contemporary history in your school has let you down badly, and did not deserve to be a teacher.

Philip

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 08:12
Quote: "Then again, if it were for the Tories, Scotland wouldn't even have its own parliament. "


That may have been a good thing, what have we gained from it? With a total cost running around 450 million squid and another layer of blubbler added to an already bloated government. Lets not kid ourselves we dont exactly have 'our own' parliament. We have a very expensive mouthpiece for English beurocracy. Hell there not even allowed to fly the Saltire on certain days!
Chris K
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 16:13 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 16:14
I think our education is acutally rather good. If you don't choose to do history then it's not really reasonable to base your education on know a small historical fact.

Education it is definately better than it was under the Conservatives.

Come on, Philip, to say "increasingly poor" is unfounded. Both my parents are teachers so I think I probably have a fairly good idea.

On my French exchange I couldn't believe how crap their English and Maths was.

Under Labour most people now have the chance to go to University. If you don't want to, you can leave at 16 or 18 as well.

Specifically what do you think is wrong with the education system?

You want the Bacaloriat? Fat chance under the tories.
empty
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 20:44
Quote: "That may have been a good thing, what have we gained from it? With a total cost running around 450 million squid and another layer of blubbler added to an already bloated government. Lets not kid ourselves we dont exactly have 'our own' parliament. We have a very expensive mouthpiece for English beurocracy. Hell there not even allowed to fly the Saltire on certain days!"

I can't comment the efficiency as I'm not in the UK anymore, however, what would have been the alternative? Even more centralism. Since as long as I can remember the Scots wanted to have their own parliament (and you were right to do so). 1997 the first small step to devolution was done. It's highly unlikely that the UK will ever see something close to a federation but I don't think, or at least hope, the current situation marks the end of all decentralization efforts.

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:10
Yes but there still remains next to no say on what happens

this is all out of our control:
Quote: "
* almost the whole of the taxation system
That means Westminster still decides what you pay in income tax and VAT, and still receives the taxes paid by businesses in Scotland, including revenues from North Sea oil. Even using all the tax powers available to it, the Scottish Parliament only controls 5% of the taxes raised in Scotland.
* the Scottish Parliament’s income
It’s Westminster, not Scotland, which decides the overall budget that the Scottish Parliament gets to spend on services like health, education, and law and order.
* social security and pensions
The Scottish Parliament has no power to alter benefits or improve the state pension.
* broadcasting
Scottish broadcasting – including even Gaelic broadcasting – is still regulated in Whitehall, not Edinburgh.
* Scotland’s relations with the EU and the rest of the world
Scotland’s government has no voice in the world, and no place at Europe’s top table.
* defence
Scotland and her Parliament have no say on defence issues, including the future or deployment of Scottish regiments, or over the fact that we are used as a base for nuclear weapons.

The Scottish Parliament is restricted by the Scotland Act 1998 from legislating on all these subjects, and many more besides. For instance, the Scottish Parliament can regulate the teaching profession, but not vets, and it can legislate on roads, but not on most aspects of the railways. Most bizarrely of all, it is allowed to legislate on vitamins B and C, but not vitamins A, D or E!
"

granted this was lifted from a pro independence web site but you can see how for the money spent, it is a very small step forward.

Dont get me wrong I am pleased we have taken a step in this direction but feel the funds spent for what is essentially an extension of the English government are ridiculous. We just need to get our oil back and then well be in business
empty
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:14
Quote: "We just need to get our oil back and then well be in business"

That would certainly help.

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Philip
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 00:31
@Chris K

I judge the declining standards in the British education system by what I see of youngsters who have recently emerged from university. Although this is impressionistic, my experience is that an increasing number of youngsters who I encounter do not have an adequate grasp of literacy, have little or no knowledge of key historical facts and are not comfortable with basic mathematics.

At work I certainly find myself increasingly correcting frequent spelling errors through to basic grammatical errors and misuse of the language. Recently I've even discovered that two of our new people at work don't even know that a letter beginning "dear sirs" cannot be ended "yours sincerely". Thats pretty appalling.

I suppose if I wanted to find proof of this decline in standards I'd just have to point at the erosion of A-Levels.

All in all, its pretty alarming.

Philip

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Rob K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 01:07
Quote: "I suppose if I wanted to find proof of this decline in standards I'd just have to point at the erosion of A-Levels."


The government has an interesting little conundrum there. A-Level pass rates cannot increase, because it implies that the exams are becomming easier, neither can they decrease, because that implies a failure of the government's education policy.


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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 01:33 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 01:34
I'm sorry, Philip, that just isn't what young people are like.

Firstly, History is a very unpopular GCSE so most people don't have a clue about it. I don't, and I don't care.

To say that most people emerging from university "are not comfortable with basic mathematics." is just plain wrong.

To get a C at GCSE Maths you need to be adaquate in Trigonometry, rearraging equations, Geometry etc.
The result is - the younger generation is better at maths than the older generation.

I don't know what you are talking about. All school children have 1 hour of literacy and 1 hour of numeracy per day.
All secondary school children must take Maths & English GCSE. What more do you want?!
Rob K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 03:10 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 03:15
Quote: "To get a C at GCSE Maths you need to be adaquate in Trigonometry, rearraging equations, Geometry etc."


To get a good grade at the old O level (GCSE equivilent) standard, you had to be able to manipulate matrices, and do basic calculus (differentiation, integration etc.). Matrices are now in Core 5 (A2 level), calculus is now in Core 2 (A2 level). Logarithms used to be in O level as well apparently, its now in Core 1 or Core 2 (I cannot remember off hand).
One of the common vector questions from O level papers, tugboats being pulled by two smaller ships, now doesn't appear until Mechanics I at AS level.

I'm not quite sure what Philip means by basic maths, but taking a fairly simple probability question, such as "If I pick the six numbers at random on my National Lottery Ticket, what is the probability that I win the jackpot?" - you are not given the tools to calculate that at GCSE level.


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IanM
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 03:36
I remember learning about probabilities when I was doing my O-level maths. Were they dropped from GCSE?

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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 03:39 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 03:40
Matrices are in FP1
All the other things you mentioned are C2

They're both AS levels.

Anyway, none of those things could be descibed as basic maths.

Those things were taught in a failed experiment to prepare people for computers and left people with no real maths skills (equation forming and manipulating).

My Mum did it and she can't use Maths in her life at all. She hates the fact that she did that stupid O Level course. I'll try and found out the name of it.

There is no point in teaching a 14 year old matrices and differentiation. GCSE only give people skills they need of they were to leave school after them.

If you are going to use Matrices in your life then you will go to college and study them at A level.

EDIT ____________________

You still have probabilities.

I don't know what Rob K is talking about.
Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 03:45
Just spoke to my mum.

She said it was called "The School's Mathmatics Project"
It was a new idea to prepare the next generation for the onset of computers.

She learnt about Matrices and didn't understand any of it. She didn't learn about Differentiation or even Simulataneous or Quadratic Equations
Philip
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 06:33
No differentiation, probability theory or quadratic equations at GCSE maths level?

This is precisely what I am talking about. I had to study all of those things when I did my GCSE maths! Next you'll be telling me that even vector maths isn't covered!

Philip

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 07:10 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 07:12
first on the Taxation issue:
look up:

Working Tax Brackets, Council Tax (Living Tax), Value Added Tax, as well as Tax on high-demand goods (Beer,Petrol,Ciggies)

on the schools: a decade ago when i took gcse, recent history was not covered. Covered (Neolithic Britian, Roman-upto-Victoria, Suffrejet movement (1921), WW2 and thats it.)

also on the point of credibility; John was working through that time as a bus driver for the police, and has a working class background. While if it were my mom who was in her teens at the time, telling me about it; then alright i'd edge with schepatism.
But both mom and john told me the same damn thing!

which is interesting considering at the time John was around manchester and mom was in south wales; which gives them very broad area definitions of the time, yet both were saying the same thing.
HMM... one KEY thing they told me, was that the Winter of Disconents *WAS NOT* just *a* Winter. It is the title given to the period of the miner strikes; now, i can believe your little quote, or two people who've lived through it.
both from different backgrounds, both at different ages doing different things, both telling the exact same story.

I noticed some argument broke out about something of who did the most wrong; but they still broth agreed on the details which i forwarded.

personally, i think that either you were too young or too sheltered. because your information seems internet spoon fed to me.
like someone reckoning they can get a more accurate picture of what happened in the gulf from a newspaper than from a vetran of the desert storm campaign.

[post.edit] on the point of the car factories, Rover closed (180,000), Ford closed (280,000) and Aston Martin closed (240,000)

they were not small companies and they were not small plants. the news was plastered with it each time one closed because they were basically 'the' employeer for that area.


Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 17:13
Can you find some articles metioning those plants? I can't.

All I could find is this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3621162.stm

It's about them considering closing down a Rover plant where they would lose 8000 workers. That is a lot of workers. The numbers you are talking about, are however, ridiculous. Find me an article mentioning each of those plants being closed down and I will belive you. Until then, I will laugh at you.

@ Philip

I don't think you really understand the education system.
GCSEs give people all the skills they need if they were to stop school at that point and go and work. They completely succeed at this. You do not need to know Differentiation as a 15 year old. If you want to though, you can an AS module early. This is what I did.

If, in life, you are going to need to know differentiation then you will take Maths AS level and you will learn it in the first week.

I don't know what you mean by Probability "Theory" (there's no such thing AFAIK) but you do probability at GCSE. This includes a coursework project on it. You also do quadratic equations (where did you get the idea you don't do them?).

All the Maths you do is useful for someone leaving school at 16. That is why you do Statistics and not Matrices.
_______________________

I'm sorry, you clearly have little to no contact with education. If you want a final proof, I am the product of GCSE Maths and half a term of AS Maths.

I am as good as, if not better at maths than the adults on this board. And this is a programming board.

And of course they do vectors.
David T
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 17:16
Quote: "No differentiation, probability theory or quadratic equations at GCSE maths level?"


Differentiation yes (although only on higher level for coursework), probability yes, quadratic equations don't remind me!

GCSE higher tier maths is quite hard, the only problem is hardly anybody sits it

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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 17:25 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 17:25
Taking GCSEs this year, David?

I did Differentiation in my coursework. We had to do something on the most effificient shape at S.A vs Volume. You differentiate to find the optimum size of a cube

I did my statistics coursework on "Good films are longer than bad films". I got all the data from IMDb top & bottom 100 and it was totally right!. Probably because of films like LOTR, the Godfather, Apocalypse Now. I think Laurence of Arabia was an out-lier. It's like 5 hours long.
Rob K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 18:13
Quote: "Next you'll be telling me that even vector maths isn't covered!"


Yes vectors are covered at GCSE level.

Chris does have a point though, GCSE does cover maths as far as most people need. I understand that entirely, my issue with it is that the gap between AS level maths and GCSE level maths was greater than it should have been. I think the higher tier GCSE should at least involve some bridging between the two.

Quote: "You differentiate to find the optimum size of a cube"


I remember doing something similar. As far as I can remember, we were told that there *was* a GCSE-level method for solving it, but using calculus was more elegant.


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Oraculaca
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 18:38
Raven: where did you get the info about Aston Martin closing or Rover and Ford for that matter??
Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 18:55 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 18:58
Don't worry about Raven. He lies the whole time.

I guess he remembered the news article I was talking about (possible loss of 8000 jobs) and then just added two 0's either because he rembered it wrong or to make his argument look better.

Then he realised it was stupid but he just can't say he was wrong. It's quite amazing. He also thinks he's amazing at arguing when in fact he just lies then ignores you. Swish.

Rover is the same company as Ford anyway.
_________________________________

EDIT -

The car plant in this is also 8000 jobs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3684856.stm
Oraculaca
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 19:11 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 19:30
Quote: " Don't worry about Raven. He lies the whole time."


I know I was just interested to see if he had a few links this time



Quote: "
The company also said it was creating 300 new jobs at its Aston Martin factory at Gaydon in Warwickshire, while confirming it was going ahead with the production of a new sports car to go on sale in 2006."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3664850.stm

Quote: "Ford and its subsidiary brands within the UK currently employ over 30,000 people"

http://www.eiro.eurofound.eu.int/2004/03/feature/uk0403106f.html


BTW Aston MArtin is owned by Ford
Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 19:18 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 19:20
Link to prove that a car plant could employ an entire town? I doubt it.

The numbers Raven is talking about is more than the entire populations of Poole & Bournemouth (my local towns).

Just imagine it. You could go up to any person in the shopping centres (child or OAP) and say "See you at work tomorrow".

It's a joke. How can he just produce numbers like that?

180,000 + 280,00 + 240,000 = 700,000 aswell.

He's still an entire town short!
jrowe
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 19:43
Quote: " Rover is the same company as Ford anyway. "


Nope, most people seem to get this confused since BMW's ownership of Rover, in which they sold Land Rover to Ford, and they sold Rover and Morris Group (MG) to the Pheonix consortium.

Probablitiy is not extensively covered on the GCSE syllabus (e.g No use of factorials, nCr, nPr etc.) nor is calculus (You may have used it but it's not on the syllabus) and neither is logarithms.


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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 19:45


Got it confused with Land Rover.
Philip
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 20:54
@Raven

Ok, so your position is that both "John" and your Mum are right in saying that the Winter of Discontent was not 1978 and that a Conservative Government was in power when it occurred.

By contrast the rest of the country is wrong and, for good measure, I am then accused of being (quote): "... too young or too sheltered. because your information seems internet spoon fed to me."

I'm sorry to say that if you genuinely believe this, you'll believe anything.

For everyone else other than Raven, feel free to peruse another 5 websites chosen at random from a google search (below). It does seem odd that everyone from the Government to the Socialist Worker to the BBC to the Accrington Observer (no less!) to every single contemporary history book I've ever read to everyone I've ever spoken to about this all agree that the Winter of Discontent was 1978 and that it was during the Callaghan Labour Government's reign.

But maybe its all a gigantic conspiracy between the entire country aimed at "John" and Raven's Mum? Yes, thats certainly plausible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/england/pwar_strikes_winter_discontent.shtml
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Winter+of+discontent
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/w/wi/winter_of_discontent.html
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1784/sw178413.htm
http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/features/feature24/articles/article_id=36

Philip

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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 21:25
How old were you during the Winter of Discontent?
Rob K
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 21:48 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 22:14
Philip, this is the same person who argued that the GameBoy Advance had a 300Mhz processor and was nearly as powerful as the PlayStation 2 (which, for those that don't know is like saying that the Wolfenstein 3D engine is as good as the Doom 3 one). The phrase "pinch of salt" comes to mind.


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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 21:59 Edited at: 7th Nov 2004 22:43
I spent ages trying to convince him that an invisisble car like in Die Another Day was impossilbe.

And that HL2 had better graphics than FFXI (or whatever - the online one)

EDIT________

Let's dig up some classic Raven threads. It's fun-tastic.

Here's the ones I was talking about:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=33442&b=2
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=2&t=20541&p=0

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