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DarkBASIC Discussion / ok how bout Blitz3d vs Darkbasic

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Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 15th Nov 2004 01:06
Quote: "Actually my above post wasn't written by me, but my brother who visisted me yesterday. Believe me, he knows his stuff, he's (professionally) in TV and Video electronics since 25 years."


Good for your brother. Then perhaps he can sit down and explain to you about Screen Formats.

4:3 Format = PAL 720x512@50Hz, NTSC 720x480x60Hz ... they ALWAYS = that for a digital output, as it is considered the standard.
While the resolutions *could* be done differently, they would have to adhear to the old PAL/NTSC rules, rather than the Generic format.
This means console/dvd/vhs/cable electronic companies would have to release thier boxes with regional RF Modules.

Also on your point about RF = Radio Frequencies, well give the boy a medal he knows what it means. It is still the signal type, which is different from RGB (Scart) and DVI (Digital Video Interface).
RF is the old Run-Length Scanline format in YrCrB Colour Space; Modualation depth will = the depth of colours within the analog signal... a bit like the difference between 16bit and 32bit colour spaces.

Not that, any of that has anything to do with the actual fact here that 4:3 Format = Ratio & Resolution, when talking about DVD/TV/Consoles.

Quote: "Oh, yes. This is bs."

Really, well then; that is upto you to believe or not really isn't it. I'm not stopping you doing a google for the standards.

Quote: "RF means Radio Frequency (sometimes also refered to as HF, High Frequency) and has itself little to do with scan lines of TV devices or the difference between interlaced scan or progressive scan. Even TV sets with a composite input don't necessarily understand progressive scan signals."


Composite input doesn't have anything to do with Progressive and Scanline modes. All that does is get an entire at once, Progressive Scan requires the TV to have an entire frame of data at once though; which means it is currently unknown how to achieve this via a standard run-length RF Signal.

If you know how though, then i'm sure you can go off and make yourself a very rich man.

Quote: "Polygon performance (the rendering of polygons) is a direct relationship of the texel performance (the cost to draw/transform one pixel). You can't equate a meaningful polygons per second rating without knowing number of texels per polygon, thus the expense per texel. "


Alright, well i'm going to stop this right here.
Really, I don't think you honestly know what Texels are for.

While Texels are used for the Rendering, there is alot more information that goes into Polygon Rendering Pipelines than just the on-screen information.
You appear to be trying to convince me here that performance is purely based on how quickly you can solve the last peice of the puzzle rather than how long all the peices have taken.


empty
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 15th Nov 2004 01:50
Quote: "4:3 Format = PAL 720x512@50Hz, NTSC 720x480x60Hz ... they ALWAYS = that for a digital output, as it is considered the standard."

Aha, and by your logic, what resolution has PAL with an aspect ratio 16:9 then? Huh?



Quote: "It is still the signal type, which is different from RGB (Scart) and DVI (Digital Video Interface). RF is the old Run-Length Scanline format in YrCrB Colour Space; Modualation depth will = the depth of colours within the analog signal... a bit like the difference between 16bit and 32bit colour spaces."

An interesting explanation. Unfortuantely wrong. What is a "YrCrB colour space" by the way?


Quote: "Composite input doesn't have anything to do with Progressive and Scanline modes. All that does is get an entire at once, Progressive Scan requires the TV to have an entire frame of data at once though; which means it is currently unknown how to achieve this via a standard run-length RF Signal.

If you know how though, then i'm sure you can go off and make yourself a very rich man."

Oh well... first of all, why in the world would anyone want to have a TV set that does progressive scan with an RF signal? The signal quality is the worst you can get. Also you're obviously confusing RF signals with how ntsc or pal encodes information.

Play Nice! Play Basic!
Version 1.02 available now!
Kevin Picone
22
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 15th Nov 2004 02:04
Quote: "Alright, well i'm going to stop this right here.
Really, I don't think you honestly know what Texels are for.
"


You obviously don't. A texel in this context (as previously defined), is a pixel transformed from texture space to screen space. This is the core process of Texture Mapping, affine or perspective.


Quote: "
While Texels are used for the Rendering, there is alot more information that goes into Polygon Rendering Pipelines than just the on-screen information.
You appear to be trying to convince me here that performance is purely based on how quickly you can solve the last peice of the puzzle rather than how long all the peices have taken.
"


I'm not trying to convince you of anything, it's simply an undeniable fact.. If rendering one texel to the screen costs XYZ number of cycles, you can calculate the polygon cost to render ABC number of texels, and thus the raw polygon rendering performance at any polygon size. Which is what manufactures generally do. Nice in theory, useless in practice...

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next generation 2D Basic (Release V1.00 Out Now)
Element Designs
20
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Joined: 5th Nov 2004
Location: Upstate, New York
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 07:48
Lol everyone please feel free to look at Ravens past posts my thoughts are that he thinks he knows everything but he doesnt. Westwood and EA teamed up when Ra2 was being built Raven so please stop the ( you know everything act ) kinda getting on my nerves , besides that you started out cool .


P.s. Dont need anymore info about polys and ftps lol i think i know how i am going to do it .

Element designs team
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
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Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 08:38 Edited at: 16th Nov 2004 08:41
Quote: "my thoughts are that he thinks he knows everything but he doesnt."


Welcome to the Apollo Forums Element - "Raven" is actually a PHP script written by Rich which looks for controversial topics and then assembles replies to them based on MSN searches for an unrelated subject. It will also randomly quote previous posts and add appropriate disagreements.

It is a productivity enhancement feature of the forum, by posting longer and longer replies until the original poster can no longer be bothered, it forces competent programmers to leave the forums and return to the comfort of the DarkBASIC Editor. Without this feature BlueGUI & BlueIDE would never have been finished.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Mx5 kris
20
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Joined: 9th Oct 2004
Location:
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 13:05
Quote: "Quote: "my thoughts are that he thinks he knows everything but he doesnt."

Welcome to the Apollo Forums Element - "Raven" is actually a PHP script written by Rich which looks for controversial topics and then assembles replies to them based on MSN searches for an unrelated subject. It will also randomly quote previous posts and add appropriate disagreements.

It is a productivity enhancement feature of the forum, by posting longer and longer replies until the original poster can no longer be bothered, it forces competent programmers to leave the forums and return to the comfort of the DarkBASIC Editor. Without this feature BlueGUI & BlueIDE would never have been finished.
"

LOL!!!HAHAHAHAH! Raven "might actually be more of a vc++.net programmed thing. Then it just randomly connects to the internet, and searches through google and yahoo, and random news sites. It then inserts "know-it-all" carp like what I am saying. ERROR LINE 4 loop exists.400F34

BatVink
Moderator
22
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Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 17:00
Quote: "what resolution has PAL with an aspect ratio 16:9 then? Huh?"


Just to answer, and **not** troll, I think the resolution is the same. Each "pixel", or whatever it's called in the world of Televisuals, is stretched horizontally. So you don't get any better quality from a wide screen telly.

@Rob: Thanks for confirming my suspicions in such a humorous way. I must admit, I've never actually seen any code from Raven. Is that an add-on module?

BatVink
http://biglaugh.co.uk/catalog AMD 3000+ Barton, 512Mb Ram, 120 Gig Drive space, GeForce 5200 FX 128 Mb, Asus A7N8X Mobo.
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Element Designs
20
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Joined: 5th Nov 2004
Location: Upstate, New York
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 22:06
Wow lol thats a pretty good bot.... and thats all i got to say

Element designs team
Element Designs
20
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Location: Upstate, New York
Posted: 16th Nov 2004 22:18
What a community im probley the only human around here lol

Element designs team
BearCDPOLD
21
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Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 18th Nov 2004 10:08
Yes the only living things here are:

Newbie Brogo, a cat.
Mouse, a mouse.
Philip, a bear.
And me, half bear half donut.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
Van B
Moderator
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Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 19th Nov 2004 22:34
I'm not gonna pretend to know very much about any of this - but Raven, dude - It's common sense that a lot of the processing is in calculating the textures for the polygon - so a bigger on-screen poly will take more time to render than one half it's size. Why are you even arguing this?. Even darkbasic has noticable shifts in performance when you try different resolution textures, I doubt it's any different for PS2. BTW, the PS2 has 4mb of texture memory, compressed - so it even has to uncompress that texture memory most of the time, making texture and render size an even bigger concearn on the PS2.

That initial workload might not matter in the final screen render, but the time it takes to gather all the render information can't simply be discounted to aid your argument!. Practically any computer can calculate 3D graphics, but the performance jump between wireframe and textured is massive. How do you explain that?.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
BearCDPOLD
21
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Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 03:51
Back to the topic:

Eh....I just checked out Blitz3d again for the heck of it.
It worked just about as fast as DBPro, the best part was the Pivots, but it did not feature bump mapping and several other things I can't remember right now which DBPro does.

My conclusion:
DBClassic<Blitz3d<DBPro

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
MikeS
Retired Moderator
22
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Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 03:59
My conclusion:

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=39353

Blitz3D can do Bumpmapping if you write a wrapper for it, which many developers are doing. At this point, it's not really a matter of which language is better, it's which developer is better.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
BearCDPOLD
21
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Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 08:17
Wow! I might have to go and get Blitz just to play with your amazing discovery. It ran smooth as silk on my compooper, which is simply incredible.

*stares at copy of DarkBasic Classic*



Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
Oneka
21
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Joined: 24th Apr 2004
Location: Hampton,VA
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 17:22
*wonders why you have not upgraded*


Making better games everday!
Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
Arkheii
21
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Joined: 15th Jun 2003
Location: QC, Philippines
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 18:44 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 19:13
I have no idea where this discussion went. Tell you what: if you can't code a better engine, make better models, design a better programming language, create a better console/cpu/gfx card/monitor/tv/forum/mod/forum member/human being/etc., don't bitch about them.


I spelled "disappointment" wrong. Pahintulutan ang di-inaasahang nakakahiyang pagkakamaling dulot ng kamangmangan. Have at you.
BearCDPOLD
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Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:07
$$$broke$$$

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
Arkheii
21
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Location: QC, Philippines
Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 18:54
You're broke, eh? If I were a gazillionaire, I'd be beatboxing to pass the time. Haha.


I spelled "disappointment" wrong. Pahintulutan ang di-inaasahang nakakahiyang pagkakamaling dulot ng kamangmangan. Have at you.
blanky
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Location: ./
Posted: 25th Nov 2004 05:30
(side-note: soz Element Designs, I thought u were just another Blitz3D newbie that'd got bored and wondered over to the DarkBasic forums demanding Knowledge and everything that goes with it. Even the free coffee.)

I speak for DBC here when I say how many poly/sec you can do depends on ur graphics card, CPU, and resolution.

Also, stuff rendered up close is slightly slower than stuff rendered from far away, mip-mapping or no mip-mapping.

I recommend you ask your modeller to give you on a disk a load of his stuff for benchmarking purposes. Write a little code that keeps rendering an object & rotating it, and displays the Frames Per Second on the screen to give you a rough idea. Get a rough idea of the poly count for the models, and feed 'em in to the program. Watch the FPS go down with the higher poly models, decide on what you consider to be an acceptable Frames-Per-Second rate (For me, 50 is decent and 35 is good), and see which models run close to that. Then count the poly's.

(I've attached a tiny bit of benchmarking code that should do OK. Really basic.)

(Oh yeah, and DBC 1.08 is faster than 1.13)

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