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Geek Culture / Ragdoll effect in games

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PiratSS
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 01:46
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I think too many games started using ragdoll effects. They just look so unnatural, its funny ;D What I want to see is limbs torn away that way if you shoot someone with a bazooka they will not just fly away, but lose half of their body.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 01:58
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Yeah I'd agree with this - but ragdoll is better than nothing! (or some lame slumping animation that doesn't make sense). At least the bodies are influenced by the surrounding areas. I was playing Counter Strike Source last night and someone snuck up behind me and blasted me off a bridge with a shotgun even though it was ragdolled it looked superb as I flew forwards and crumpled over some oil drums below.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 03:03
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Depends what you do with the rag-doll physics really.
They look ridiculously fake in Counter-Strike Source, and FarCry;

In Doom3 it adds atmosphere, and in Unreal 2 it give a nice dimension to the gameplay.
Or Resident Evil where it adds realism.

Alot of games it really isn't a case of the tools you use, to say 'well we have such-n-such' in the game; but how they are used.
An effective use of a system can truely add depth. Uneffective use is just a gimmic that cheapens it for everyone.

While CS:Source' physics are nice and all, everything just still screams at any respectable developer. I think it was said best in one of the games I was playing of it when it first came out,

'The only good thing about the physics engine, is now you have more than 2 death animations.'

And it is sad when something SO sought after for almost a decade of games development is reduced to something which is never particularly noticed in the first place.

It's a gimmic with most games, which they can put on the box 'Rag-Doll Physics' and the adverage person is like 'Oooh' just like the 'Intel Inside' made people feel good about thier PCs in the early 90s.

It'll pass and we'll see good games using the technology effectively. Like Rag-Doll Kung Fu


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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 03:28 Edited at: 11th Nov 2004 03:28
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It'll start looking a lot better when it's fully integrated with the animation in game, through handling animations as physics impulses instead of locked movements. Won't be long now !

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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 04:26
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I just want to see limbs lock properly, like how in 3DSMax you can set the dimensions of where, say, you can bend your knee one way but not the other.

Nowadays in most ragdoll games, if someone gets killed, their limbs twist and turn into everywhich way, making the victim look like, well, a ragdoll. But they shouldn't!

I'm confusing myself right now, but you all know what I mean.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 05:17
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no i know exactly what you mean. Thus why my examples were Unreal2 and Doom3... they have limiters on the range of motion.

Infact KAT (used for UT2Kx models) is possibly one of the best physics range editors i've used which includes the awesome IK of Animanium


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 05:32
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The rag-doll demo that I made with Tokamak had joint rotation limitations in it. There is no excuse for pro games not to have it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 05:57
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ragdoll's essential in hitman.. har har, I love draggin' em around

*recently rented contracts*

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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 07:49
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Quote: " they have limiters on the range of motion."


Limiters! Yes, that's the word I was looking for. I haven't worked with 3DSMax since '99, so I've long forgotten the terms


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indi
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 14:44
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the ragdoll physics in postal2 are funny. especially when u kick the bodies around or through doors.

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The Real 87
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 15:01
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I love the rag doll physics in HL2. I love it when a person is thrown in the air by a stinger. (I think it's called a stinger)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 19:56
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Quote: "I love the rag doll physics in HL2. I love it when a person is thrown in the air by a stinger. (I think it's called a stinger)"


Considering it isn't released until Friday, wonder if your going by the videos; in which case.. Doom3 looks like it has awesome physics from the trailer, most of it though is scripted.
Just a warning.


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The Real 87
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 12:45
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I watched the videos.

Doom3 is almost completely scripted.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 22:23
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you'd think so, but it isn't.
given events are scripted, but the rag-doll and physics effects aren't.

next time your playing doom3, watch what happens when your shooting away at one of the zombies. if you notice they'll recoil from the shot (sometimes fall over), each time it is exactly related to how you've shot them not prefab animations.

that is where HL2 and Doom3 really do split up. if you notice (even in the videos) that when you shoot someone in HL2 even though they recoil; the animation is exactly the same each time depending on where you hit.
in Doom3 if you use the chaingun on one site of someone enough, they'll spin and fall to the fall; in HL2 they'll recoil the exact same amount each time.

So while events in Doom3 like NPCs throwing barrels down stairs are Scripted events an only happen from certain characters; the overall atmospheric physics are not scripted events.
While I don't doubt that Doom3's physics are going to be overlooked like Unreal2s were; sad fact is, that D3 & U2 are using physics much more effectively.

For example, Swinging bodies..
Half-Life2, they swing in a static path when hit.
Doom3, although they appear to be restricted to how far one why they can swing you can shoot them from any direction and they'll try to swing that way.
Unreal2, pin point shots and you can make bodies gain momentum enough to keep themselves swinging for ages.


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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 05:28
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But the last videos we've seen from HL2 were from E3 2003. I'm *SURE* that a lot has been done to it since then.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 05:30
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O_o .. what are you on about..

I've been playing halo the better half of this week

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The Real 87
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 05:57
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when did Halo get involved?

And YES the physics in HL2 are better then those in the videos. Shortly after the video was put out the physics engine was completely rebuilt (to the better part of my knowlage).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 05:58
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heh, yeah maybe. I'm more focusing the attention on CS: Source which uses the Source Engine (and Physics). Who needs a Video when you can try the real thing, eh?

Have a feeling this past year has been used specifically to try and get Half-Life2 upto everything they've claimed it'll do. A reason for the CS:Source pre-release, is a widescale Beta without people realising. You also notice they've been trickling things out for that, each new levels has some improved physics and usually comes with a specific program build update.

But then again that is just guess work heh
this said, i actually liked the E3 2004 video they released; was better than the 2003 one. certainly as hell more impressive, not to mention a good few 'ati plugs' heh


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The Real 87
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 05:59
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maybe the fact thet the original release of CS cource back a few mothns ago was call CS Source Beta gives away that it was a beta test.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 06:07
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arg.. i'm constantly getting the two confused my apologies..

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 06:08
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Quote: "maybe the fact thet the original release of CS cource back a few mothns ago was call CS Source Beta gives away that it was a beta test."


The CS:Source Beta, was understood to be the Beta Test of Counter-Strike Source... NOT the Source Engine. Also do you honestly thing that anyone would've payed $45 for Counter-Strike with a single level? heh


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 10:25
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Have you guys ever been playing Halo 2, and you mow down an elite, and you look at his head and it's jiggling....like a bobble head, while he's laying on his back on the ground? A glitch, but an amusing one. If you shoot it with the battle rifle it jiggles more!

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The Real 87
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 13:49
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Don't buy Halo 2 it is the original with a new function so you can have 2 guns. Yes I have played it, yes a friend of mine already beat it.

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The Real 87
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 13:50
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Well since we are raging on ragdoll physics I thought I would ask what physics engine (sytle) you guys like.

I enjoy Emotion Physics the most, they are some what realistic however once something builds to much momentum it begins to fly out of control.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 04:07
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Quote: "Don't buy Halo 2 it is the original with a new function so you can have 2 guns. Yes I have played it, yes a friend of mine already beat it."


<sarcasm>
Really? The sequel of a game is just like the original? Stop the press!
</sarcasm>


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The Real 87
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 04:40
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no it's not like the original it IS the original with a single new function and slower vehcles.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 04:58 Edited at: 14th Nov 2004 04:59
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No it isn't the original with this "single new function" you're referring to. I've just spent last night playing it for 6 hours, and I know what I'm playing.

There's even different enemies :p

Maybe you accidentally put Halo in the machine and didn't notice?


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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 17:32
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I find it amusing that you lot seem to think Rag Doll physics look fake, but I kind of doubt that you've ever seen someone get shot dead with a shotgun then smash into a wall.

I personally think ragdoll physics is exactly how it would look in real life. It's a model of a limp human body. When you've had your head blown off by a pump action, I would imagen you'd be pretty limp.

The only thing that doesn't look realistic to me is the friction modelling, where people slide along the ground. Their clothes are more likely to grip it and make them tumble over, but this would seriously decrease the amount of time the dead guy was moving for, so I suppose game developers reduce gravity and friction to maximize the effect.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 17:42
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It's not the "limpness" that looks fake, but rather the limits with which the joints move. For example, the knees might bend backward, which is impossible unless the knees were broken!


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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 01:23
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I've never seen that before in a game. I think the ones I've played with Rag Doll physics are Unreal 2, May Payne 1 & 2, Pain Killer, Doom 3 .. can't think of any more. Do any of those look bad to you? I don't recall seeing weird joint limits on those games.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 01:40
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This is sort of a follow up to my last post, but it all looks well and good, but sometimes in games that use ragdoll the enemies keep rolling over or jiggling several seconds after they've been killed and/or landed from a high fall. That's the one thing that bothers me about it. Otherwise, even though the flailing limbs can look pretty fake sometimes it is amusing and adds more fun to the game.

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Chris K
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 02:44
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Max Payne 1 didn't have rag doll physics.
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The Real 87
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 03:34
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@Jeku You missed the point again. The ENGINE is the exact same one from Halo with a single new function and a few glitches fixed. The Camapin and enemies were changed cuz everyone would realize that it was the exact same if they didn't change them.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:01
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Quote: "I've never seen that before in a game. I think the ones I've played with Rag Doll physics are Unreal 2, May Payne 1 & 2, Pain Killer, Doom 3 .. can't think of any more. Do any of those look bad to you? I don't recall seeing weird joint limits on those games."


Heh, you've just listed all the games (cept MP1) which I listed above to actually having implimented Rag-Doll correctly.

Quote: "I find it amusing that you lot seem to think Rag Doll physics look fake, but I kind of doubt that you've ever seen someone get shot dead with a shotgun then smash into a wall."


I've seen someone shot in the gut with a shotgun before, it was an accidental shooting; but wasn't pretty. Shotguns make things explode backwards, like you've put a small explosive under the skin. Not pretty!

I've also had the misfortune to see someone being shot dead and thrown out of a 2 story building. Again not an experience that I would like to repeat.

But as said above, the limpness wasn't the issue; more the lack of limiters on motion. After all your limbs don't bend 360° in every direction, unless you've dislocated or broken it. That however is something else to think about rather than an annoyance.

Quote: "@Jeku You missed the point again. The ENGINE is the exact same one from Halo with a single new function and a few glitches fixed. The Camapin and enemies were changed cuz everyone would realize that it was the exact same if they didn't change them."


That would be very hard.
Halo - Visual C++ 6.0 using DirectX 8.1
Halo2 - Visual C# 1.0 using DirectX 9.0

Even if they were using simply a rewritten version of the same engine, it would still be slightly different and use difference Shaders.


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Ilya
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 06:42
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*realizes something*
What if the levels in Halo2 are from the internet?
Wouldn't be hard to get some Halo fans to allow thier maps to be in Halo2.

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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 07:35
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Quote: "Jeku You missed the point again. "


Uh, I'm sorry I missed your 'point' from this sentence:

Quote: "Don't buy Halo 2 it is the original with a new function so you can have 2 guns. Yes I have played it, yes a friend of mine already beat it."


--------------

Quote: "The ENGINE is the exact same one from Halo with a single new function and a few glitches fixed."


That one made me laugh especially. That would be like saying Max Payne 2 had the same engine as Max Payne 1 The engine in Halo 2 is FAR superior. Let's see, the graphics engine, physics, multiplayer, and AI among other aspects were rewritten. That's a bit more than "a single new function and a few glitches fixed".

To tell you the truth, Halo 2 seems to have more glitches. One example: I was playing cooperative mode through the game with a friend when we were flying banshees over some buildings. We both crashed onto the same ledge and lost our banshees at the same time. All of a sudden the game saved our checkpoint, and there was no way off this ledge. We tried killing ourselves to go back to the save point but we just appeared back on the ledge again


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The Real 87
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 13:54
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are you sure thats not the programmers just f#&king with you?

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BearCDPOLD
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If they are just f#&king with us it was the best f#&king of my life and I'm ready for more.

The simple fact is this:
The game is damn fun. That's all that matters. It's fun.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 04:05
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I rather disliked their physics..

Note that when you jump you can still stear yourself to where you're falling somewhat..

When you jump in that moving train toward the beginning, you're having no momentum applying to you from the current movement, and so when you jump at the front of the train, the train moves out from under you and you end up toward the middle/back

I'm afraid their physics are pretty standard from most other games

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 05:21
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Yeah, and did anyone else notice the damaged Ghosts do weird things? Like if you destroy a Ghost with the tank, the Ghost sometimes flips around for ages before settling down. Sometimes even after settling down, it will just spontaneously flip around again. I'm not sure if this was done on purpose


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It was, it's the secondary explosion.

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walaber
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For those who have looked around at various developments in ragdolls/physics libraries, there are some cool developments that are being developed right now. the easiest example is the Meqon physics demos, which show ragdolls that are blended with existing animation techniques... so it's no longer "all or nothing"... you can have a traditionally animated character with a ragdoll limb (broken arm), etc. or you can let the physics control some of the limbs, so the character tries to break it's own fall by putting it's arms toward the ground, etc.

Personally I'm happy even with basic ragdolls, because it means you don't have to worry about death animations, and you character will never fall backwards and die halfway into the wall/background

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AlecM
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 12:57
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CS source has limits on how far a limb can bend. What I think would be cool is if it could determine how much force was being put on a given joint and then possibly break the limiter. When I as a kid I used to skate and I saw some pretty nasty accidents involving elbows going the wrong way..
I think the ragdolls in flatout are really awesome, its a lot of fun to watch the driver flung out at 150mph only to smack into a sign and shatter it.


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