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Geek Culture / NASA: Project Constellation

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Philip
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 08:54 Edited at: 11th Nov 2004 08:58
Project Constellation is in my opinion the single most important human project presently in existence. It was announced earlier this year by President Bush. The objective is for mankind to return to and begin colonisation of the Moon after 30 years of absence and, from there, ultimately to travel to Mars. If you wish to read more about this historic mission, please examine:
[href]www.nasa.gov[/href]

For many reasons President Bush is controversial. I do not intend to commence any debate on this. However, I will say that I regard his speech earlier this year which began Project Constellation as both historic and breathtakingly courageous. Its obvious parallel is with President Kennedy's equally controversial "we shall go to the moon" speech in the 1960s, which launched the Apollo programme.

Now that preliminary CEV designs are being published (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4000649.stm I felt this was an appropriate time in which to write to him (or, at least, his staff) and express my own personal support:

Quote: "

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Young [mailto:d3fxyh@btinternet.com]
Sent: 11 November 2004 00:46
To: 'president@whitehouse.gov'
Subject: NASA: Project Constellation


Dear Mr. Bush

I am writing to express my wholehearted support for the bold new vision for human space exploration you unveiled earlier this year.

I am British and so you may not consider my views of much consequence. However, I firmly believe that we all have a common stake in advancing manned exploration of our solar system and of proceeding forthwith with the colonisation of the Moon and, ultimately, Mars.

After 30 years of limited and comparatively modest space development, I am delighted with your new initiative. It takes a leader of great courage and conviction to propose and support an epochal project such as this. I believe you are such a man. For my part, I was not dismayed to read the naysaying and carping by opponents after your original speech. Throughout history every great project has been opposed and we only stand where we are today because hope has triumphed over pessimism and belief has banished despair. Indeed, your nation would not exist if, centuries ago, farsighted individuals had not risked all in crossing the boundless oceans and, later, other individuals had not challenged tyranny and stood firm by their core beliefs. Even the significant cost must not daunt us. What price a dream? Humanity is not merely a species of accountants.

Obviously the pre-eminent position in modern society enjoyed by the United States means it is uniquely qualified to lead, to set out ambitious goals and to inspire humanity in this noble quest. Yet, speaking both as a British taxpayer and as a fortunate citizen of the world's fourth wealthiest country, it is my sincere hope that Her Majesty's Government will share your wisdom and will offer to aid the United States and to contribute materially and substantially to our odyssey to Mars.

My very best wishes on your historic second term in office.

Kind regards

Philip J. Young

A Solicitor Advocate of Her Majesty's Supreme Court of Judicature
Greenwich, London
10 November 2004
"


If you agree that the future of mankind is out in space, and wish to see manned human exploration and colonisation of the solar system in our lifetime, please could I urge you to post an appropriate message below.

If you do not agree, please do not post below. Start a new thread instead. I do not wish to start a debate in this thread. I only wish to see who agrees.

Cheers

Philip

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The Darthster
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 09:04
Sounds good to me

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Thoth Onegan
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 09:10 Edited at: 11th Nov 2004 09:15
Project Constellation is definitly very important. Hopefully humanity can go out into space once again.

EDIT : http://www.projectconstellation.us/news/
CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 09:17
I read your entire post waiting for the punch-line, which oddly, never materialized. It must be coming later in this thread so for now I will humor this and give my true opinion of agreeance with your position that man should explore space.

(sits and waits for other shoe to drop)


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Jimmy
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 09:28
Boooooooooooyah!


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Ilya
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 09:47
I think we should build our own planet that is a plain. Going to the moon is a good start, though.


Actually, humans should build an infinate plain on the XZ axis and at a high Y axis, but that would cut off a lot of space.

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 10:03
Ambitious... practically impossible... but so was the moon back then . I'm all for the new project... we need to take some initiative and expand the world past the Earth .

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 10:20
and from there-the usa conquers the universe. Actually, Im for that......
Um....well actually that would be awseome. That would rock to goto the moon and mars and live to see it. Go "Dubya"!

DarkSin
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 11:58
I am very anxious to see much more development in our space program and this is nothing but a good sign to me.


Jess T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 18:34
I whole-heartedly agree with the program.

It's like you said, after the original Apollo mission that landed us on the Moon, Space exploration by man has been some-what lacking. But with the new program, We're back in the driver's seat to collonising Mar's before my grandchildren pass on

Jess.


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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 18:37
Its time the UK got more involved - whilst we cant launch are own crafts, we can certainly provide the expertise.

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 19:56
Politics aside, I think it's time a lot of people got involved. We could develop better technology if we worked together on this I think. We'll see how it goes !

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flibX0r
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 20:11
We do need to set up the moon similar to antartica though, although stricter. no country should own the moon, but they could have a section of the moon. Otherwise you americans would have a monopoly of the moon, and thats not cool


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Damokles
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 20:22
Quote: "Otherwise you americans would have a monopoly of the moon"


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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 22:29
Actually I believe the moon is partitioned out between property owners across the world... remember all those ads to buy moon property? I find that somewhat annoying as we haven't worked out who the pucky owns it in the first place to sell it. There's no easy solution to that problem-- except to give it all to me!

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David T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 00:24
Quote: "Actually I believe the moon is partitioned out between property owners across the world... remember all those ads to buy moon property? I find that somewhat annoying as we haven't worked out who the pucky owns it in the first place to sell it. There's no easy solution to that problem-- except to give it all to me!"


I have a feeling those sales won't stand up for long in any court

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Neofish
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 02:36
I believe that the future of mankind lie in space but I also have a strong anti-science-fiction view on it all. Sure that it's physically possible (scientifically that is) but the technology required is extremely expensive. I can't remember the exact figures, or what I'm talking about, but the trip to the moon (or something similar) cost $15 billion/million (I can't remember ). The best methods for a successful space program is to: 1. All the companies should join together in one big program; 2. Make no mistakes, everything must be quadruple checked and more (remember the space shuttle blew up in flight...and the space shuttle that was hit by paint or dust which destroyed it in re-entry); 3. Make all the parts cost-effective: Use more efficient fuel; use smaller, cheaper (to make that is), good quality technology (take a leaf out of Japan's book). Finally do not let the public think that things like "sling-shotting" around the Sun are currently possible with todays technology (it is scientifically though), I found the new BBC program extremely annoying because it gave the impression that this is possible in the new future, while we know how to do it we cannot do it cost-effictively.

There's my coupla pennies.

Thanks,
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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 02:43
Quote: "1. All the companies should join together in one big program"


Turn a virgin market into a monopoly? Yikes

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Neofish
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 02:45
Did I put companies!? I meant countries (for example the US, Russia, UK and Japan (they have a space program don't they?).

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 02:54
That makes more sense, then

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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 02:59
I'm surprised any of that makes sense

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Rye
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 03:21
Im believ it is a great idea.

but they gotta put a HUGE red light there pointing at earth so we can see it at all times and bask in the light of our own amazingness.
David T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 03:23 Edited at: 12th Nov 2004 03:24
Quote: "Turn a virgin market into a monopoly? Yikes "


Talking of Virgin

http://www.virgingalactic.com

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 05:31
What is going to end up happening is wars. Wars to control the moons resources. That is the sad truth. Earth will:
a) if we don't unite (aka Earth Federation or such) we will fight nfor the moon, because earth can not provide what we need for long.
b)Unite. Earth will most probably unite, which I will talk about in the bottom.
c) Moon wil form its own goverment.

Those are the most likely things to happen.


If we unite, some countries will appose it. What would happen is a "Earth Unity"and an evil "Alliance/Collition/Terrorists" starting an all out war. There would be war no matter what happens. If you study hard enough, you would realise that humanity is one of great potintol for all of universe, but war has ruined this. We are to imperial for this to occur in peace. The first alien life we meet, if advanced and peaceful we would be nice to, if advanced and warring, we would fight and die (instead of trying to make peace), if unadvanced and peaceful, kill, if unadvanced and wrring, kill, you see only one way would result in peace.

Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 05:49
Thanks to everyone who has posted saying that they agree that manned human exploration of the solar system should be progressed.

I am, however, a bit dischuffed that my thread has been hijacked. With respect, I did say above: "If you agree that the future of mankind is out in space, and wish to see manned human exploration and colonisation of the solar system in our lifetime, please could I urge you to post an appropriate message below. If you do not agree, please do not post below. Start a new thread instead. I do not wish to start a debate in this thread. I only wish to see who agrees."

However, that has not stopped a mini-discussion about who owns the Moon and various other asides. Please please return to the topic. If you want to know who owns the Moon or debate issues relating to it, I've answered this in a separate thread of the same name. Please post to that thread.

Thank you.

Philip

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 06:00
I was saying the future beholds that man will own all, or die trying, that is all. I stayed on respectful topic. I said that this is going to not be the era that all hoped for of peace, but will still be a great age.

Rob K
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 07:56 Edited at: 12th Nov 2004 07:57
Your analysis surprises me somewhat Philip, as it seems to ignore the economic difficulties that such a mission would pose.

In simple terms, I do not think America can afford Project Constellation.
I'm not aware of any figures around at the moment, but estimates of > $100 billion sound realistic. I am not convinced either that the benefits will outweigh the costs.
America has, in my opinion, far more urgent domestic problems which it needs to at least begin to deal with before it can continue to colonise other areas.

In the long term, say perhaps another century down the line, I think it would be a good idea to explore the further reaches of space, just not yet.


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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:01
Quote: "$100 billion"


Last I checked even its detractors don't cite over $40 billion.

Quote: "In the long term, say perhaps another century down the line, I think it would be a good idea to explore the further reaches of space, just not yet."


Things will continue to degrade here on Earth. The constantly decreasing level of natural resources will cause far more chaos in our modern, energy-oriented international economy than an expensive government project would. Any short-term damages are easily outweighed by the vast importance of getting to space and doing it now. This has been waiting for far too long!

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:13
mouse is intelligent. Infact he could easily be a senator. well.....maybe not. But the fact is the us will afford it. Maybe you guys wont support it, and in the end you guys left behind in this major advancement, but that is your fault. The us is behind in important energy resources. So is the world. Once we goto mars and the moon, we might have a chance of finding new resources to fuel vehicles.

Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:23
Quote: "Infact he could easily be a senator."


One day. TAX FREE BABY

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:29
I am making a sign for you. Mouse for president 2020.

Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:45
@RobK

I tend to think "real prices" in this area are always misleading. Whatever the price will be, its bound to be very significantly more than the estimate.

But lets take your figure of US$100bn rather than Mouse's US$40bn. Frankly, US$100bn is in real terms today less than the Apollo space programme cost the United States in the 1960s and 1970s.

Lets put that figure into perspective. Last time I checked the US government's annual budget for 2005-2006 was about US$2.4 trillion. Thats trillion. Even the UK government's annual budget for 2005-2006 is about GBP 520 billion (US$959.894 billion).

So, amazing though it sounds, US$100 billion would actually be easily bearable by the United States. Remember that this total cost would not all come at once and up front. It would be incurred over many years. President Bush's plan anticipates the total cost being borne over 20 years. So that would be less than US$5 billion a year.
Peanuts to a nation whose government spends US$2.4 trillion a year.

Philip

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Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:47 Edited at: 12th Nov 2004 08:47
Heres another way of looking at it. On these figures, the total cost of establishing a permanent manned presence on the Moon and the first man on Mars is only about the cost of 2.5 millennium domes a year.

Philip

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:50
I like that way of looking at it-- very inventive !

Out of curiosity, how much did the Apollo space program cost (accounting for modern inflation)? I googled around a bit but couldn't find any info on it...

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Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:51
Keep googling. I read some articles on comparative costing immediately after President Bush first gave his speech earlier this year.

Philip

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Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:53 Edited at: 12th Nov 2004 08:53
Here is a link to NASA's own cost estimate. They set the figure as US$100 billion.

[href]http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5772&sequence=0&from=0#anchor [/href]

Philip

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Philip
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 08:56
According to this page of NASA's cost estimate, the total cost of the Apollo programme in 2005 US$ is US$170 billion.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5772&sequence=4

See under the heading "The Apollo Programme"

Philip

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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 12:17
Quote: "I read your entire post waiting for the punch-line, which oddly, never materialized. It must be coming later in this thread so for now I will humor this and give my true opinion of agreeance with your position that man should explore space.

(sits and waits for other shoe to drop)"


Yeah, me too lol. I actually re-read that post twice just in case I had missed the joke.


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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 12:34
Not to generalize, but try to think outside what you're supposed to as a decided anti-Bush, pro-social-liberal or whatever. This has little to do with politics and a lot do with space travel... don't condemn it just because Bush is involved.


Philip-> Thanks, I appreciate that. The figures are certainly a lot higher than I had previously read... of course, I had no idea we made that much money, either (ditto the UK). It'll be interesting to see how this progresses. I wouldn't mind visiting the moon, or Mars one day ...

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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 14:19
Quote: "Not to generalize, but try to think outside what you're supposed to as a decided anti-Bush, pro-social-liberal or whatever. This has little to do with politics and a lot do with space travel... don't condemn it just because Bush is involved."


If that was directed at me, my comment was reguarding the fact that this is the first post Philip has made without making a joke somewhere in his message. It had nothing to do with Bush at all.


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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 14:21
Hmmm... I guess I see what you mean. It seemed as if the whole punch line thing was revolving around the political aspect-- but I guess I'm just hypersensitive.

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Posted: 12th Nov 2004 19:48
Hi Philip,

You're right, the figures do look far more reasonable when put in perspective.

I still have my doubts though, I'm just not sure that this mission will really benefit countries outside of America. From their perspective, that's fair enough as they are providing all (or nearly all) of the funds. However, I do not think it is correct to say that it is of vital importance to humanity.


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