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Geek Culture / Who owns the Moon?

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Jeku
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 21st Nov 2004 17:01
Quote: " Similarly if we find aliens it would blow religion apart."


Riiight. Well some of us "religious" folk believe there is room for satanic demons impersonating alien beings in order to "blow religion apart".

My head is spinning!


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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 17:07 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 17:09
heh

who says they didnt have prophets and cursifictions on another planet too? you're just being self centered to believe we're the only race in the universe with religeon.

Sparda
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Location: Pacifica
Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:45
Quote: "What if the moon lost so much weight, that it fell to Earth, then Earth fell to the sun?"


There are not enough emoticons to share what I am feeling right now


Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:54
Quote: "There are not enough emoticons to share what I am feeling right now "


Perfecetly summarizing my take on that quote

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Neofish
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Location: A swimming pool of coke
Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:55
Quote: "enables people to own real estate on celestial bodies but not countries."

that is true BUT
Quote: "celestial bodies"

this does include the moon and everything out there BUT it only really counts for comets, which you cant own, but can be named after...

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Chris K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 03:43
OK, I don't know about most religions but The Bible says nothing about other creations.

The whole point of it is that we are special, above other creatures, the only ones gifted with a soul.

My RS teacher (who is a Reverent) said that id we discovered life on another planet The Bible would have to be reinterpreted.
DrakeX
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 04:11
"you're just being self centered to believe we're the only race in the universe with religeon"

duh, everyone knows that the covenant are religious extremists



"id we discovered life on another planet The Bible would have to be reinterpreted"

or if that happened, it might mean that the bible is *gasp* wrong!

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
Philip
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 04:36
@Scraggle

Quote: "
I have no intention of arguing with you because you may be right, however, I will point out one thing it says on my certificate. That is, that there is a loophole in the very article that you have linked to which enables people to own real estate on celestial bodies but not countries.

Here is the article it refers to:

Quote: "Outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means"

As you can see, it only outlaws countries not individuals
"


I really hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but I'm afraid that is not probably not correct either.

You can't have any ownership interest in land without a country having an internationally recognised sovereignty over that land. This is because most advanced jurisdiction's conflicts of law rules provide that ownership of land is determined by the lex fori, i.e. the law of the sovereignty in which the land is located.

The fundamental problem of the Moon is that it is terra nullius, in that nobody yet lives there, there is no recognised government and hence there is no recognised governing sovereignty.

Of course, this problem sometimes occurs on Earth. A good current example is Sealand. This is a small fort on a rock off the coast of England. It is outside British territorial waters and so a few decades ago a fruitcake landed there, proclaimed himself "Prince Roy", and purported to set up an independent state.

See: http://www.sealandgov.com/history.html

As "Prince Roy" claims sovereignty he therefore claims title to the fort and all the rights and privileges that attach to sovereignty. However, his state is not recognised by any government (and you can discount his comments about the 1968 case - they are hopelessly misconceived) so the rights and privileges of the sovereignty have no weight or value.

The Moon falls into a different category as no person or government has yet even tried to claim sovereignty over it. If they did, regardless of whether they are an individual or a country, that would theoretically be a breach of the Treaty and the Agreement. It is unlikely that the claiming country's sovereignty would be recognised. Alternatively, given that many countries have enacted both into domestic law, an attempt by an individual to claim sovereignty would probably constitute a criminal offence in the nation state of which the individual is a citizen.

For example, broadly speaking, in England the Outer Space Act 1986 prohibits various activities relating to outer space without a licence from HMG. If you were a British subject and flew to the Moon and tried to claim sovereignty, you would have committed a criminal offence and would be liable to arrest, trial and possible imprisonment. Your claim to sovereignty and any succeeding claim to an ownership interest in the moon would not be recognised.

Philip

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 06:39
*Throws a big net around the moon.

Now I own it and I shall start harvesting the cheese immediately.

Funny thing about these people who are selling deeds to part of the moon or whatever they are. Is this practice illegal. I always wondered how they could transfer ownership when they had no way to suggest that they are indeed the owners.

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Philip
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 07:06
As far as England and Wales are concerned, I think it constitutes any number of criminal offences.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
IanM
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 07:22
Quote: "If you were a British subject and flew to the Moon and tried to claim sovereignty, you would have committed a criminal offence and would be liable to arrest, trial and possible imprisonment"


The extradition would be damned expensive ... although being sovereign, you could deny it ... but then again, not being recognised as sovereign means that as a citizen you would be obliged to hand yourself over

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 07:47
Quote: " OK, I don't know about most religions"


Exactly-- so your comment was completely and totally baseless. Religion != Christianity ffs.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 14:13
Quote: "My RS teacher (who is a Reverent) "


Reverands are Catholics, which in itself does not speak for the majority of Christians

My comment on satanic demons posing as aliens was not a joke, by the way I seriously think that's what will happen, but you never know.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 23:03
well, perhaps you setup a corporation in an area not covered by the treaty, and use that corporation to claim ownership of the moon after you used that corporation to get there

You'd be one rich man.. and it'd be legal, and you could sue whoever's currently selling deeds^_^

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 23:14
about the flag thing.. yes, we put one on the moon, but i think so did russia.... not sure though....

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Scraggle
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 02:05
Not so.

To date the USA is the only country to have landed men on the moon.

@Philip
Thanks for the info and you have also proved the major point of what I was saying ... my certificate is a great talking point

Philip
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 07:44
@Scraggle

Thats absolutely right! This has been a very interesting thread!

@Jerico

Companies are creatures of the sovereign jurisdictions in which they are incorporated. If, for example, a company incorporated in England went to the Moon and did what you said, it would still be liable for criminal prosecution. Probably the directors too, in that eventuality.

Parliamentary draftsmen are highly paid and clever lawyers. They make mistakes - who doesn't? But they rarely miss obvious wheezes such as that one.

Philip

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Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 07:55
Damn you and your legal mumbo jumbo!


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 08:02
You do not get into an argument with this bear!.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 22:16
There goes my crazy corporate scheme

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