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Geek Culture / what program do the profesinals use?

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michael young
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 03:44
what program do the profesinals use to make games for such consoles like the p2s and x-box? i thought it was c++ but then like people that had it said it was crap for makeing games and to hard because u have to write a lot more complex codes into it. are they just not very gd with c++ so they dont know many codes and think it would be to hard to make prper ps2/x-box games in? or isnt it the program that people make ps2/x-box games in?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 03:53
You will find that the majority of Console developers currently use Visual C++, and CodeWarrior for thier programming needs.

A large number of X-Box / Xenon (exclusive) developers are currently moving over to Visual C# because it is a much easier pipeline.

Unfortunately these are all overly complex way to program for your consoles, namely because you need to understand the libraries behind them as well as the APIs.

Thus professional games development usually remains the domain of those who have put in years of work trying to learn and understand the libraries and the language of thier choice.

Currently to my knowlage there is no ConsoleBASIC out there for people who want to program for consoles but have no real knowlage of how to go about it. This is not to say there isn't one, or not going to be one, however due to the fact you have to be licenses in order to produce viable Discs which work on these machines; it generally means that you cannot develop for them without spending out alot of cash.

As I said, they might be one in the future. Try not to hold you breath on it though.

In the mean time you could try developing an Internet Browser with a build-in spell checker.


Mentor
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:21 Edited at: 15th Nov 2004 04:24
PS2 is developed on PC`s with a development kit and a connection to a real PS2 to actualy test the code, they use C++, C or Assembler normaly to write the code for the playstation.
xbox is basicaly a PC in a black box with a custom windows OS, programs written for the PC can be modified to compile for the X-Box as well, languages are C++ and Assembler afaik.

the problem with C++ and the other languages is that it IS hard, the code to make a sphere in Db is one line, in C++ it would be several hundred lines, and you need to absorb a truckload of information on directx before you can even think about loading and animating objects so they walk around a level etc, and that will take thousands of lines of code, commercial games have linecounts in the millions, and thats before you start programing shaders and writing engine scripts etc (or in other words...your mates aren`t that good at C++)

developer kits for PlayStation and X-Box are not available to the public though, you have to be a recognised developer to be allowed to code commercialy for either platform (and Sony/Microsoft will vet what you write and even stop you publishing it if they don`t like the look of the program)

Mentor.

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
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Mini ATX cases suck.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:27
Quote: "(and Sony/Microsoft will vet what you write and even stop you publishing it if they don`t like the look of the program)"


If only they scrutinised the Franchise companies as much; games like Spyro:Enter the Dragon could've been kept of the shelf!!

Normally in games to spot bugs you need an astute eye, on the consles anyways. With Spyro though they were PAINFULLY obvious. Add to this the graphics engine could've run happily on the Playstation. I would say it's a shame when good franchises go bad but Spyro had never been my favorite game heh


David T
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:48
Quote: " people that had it said it was crap for makeing games and to hard because u have to write a lot more complex codes into it"


Because its hard doesn't mean its inferior.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
michael young
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:53
lol ty for all the quick responses lol i hope to be a games maker ehiter codeing or the modeling. lol its gonna be hard to get this job that i want
Chris K
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 06:17
There's something called YBASIC on PS2. Don't know much about it though.
Jeku
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 07:45
Many companies uses middleware, like Renderware by Criterion, which handles a lot of the cross-platform work for you. A developer can focus on their main meat and potatoes (PS2) and can cross-develop for the NGC, Xbox, and even PC at the same time.

Raven - I'm surprised major bugs can make it into a shipped product. Each company has their first-party QA guys, who after the game is finished, submit it to the console company's QA guys. If there are bugs, the game will be sent back to the developer to be fixed.

Each console company has an 80-100 page guidelines manual with how the console specific look-n-feel must behave. If one thing is off, for example Rumble Pak is spelled using all lowercase letters, the game will be rejected and sent back to the developer.

For games to be released with such hindering bugs, ala Enter the Matrix, it really raises questions with whether the console companies would rather get the game out faster to make more $$$ than to release a "good" solid, stable game.


--[GameBasic - Coming Soon]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 08:42 Edited at: 15th Nov 2004 08:43
Yeah, Renderware is a very common engine now.
You know, it might be interesting to use Renderware to create a BASIC language around.

I mean it gives all of the features that DarkBASIC Professional does, and more. Hmm wonder why that never struct me before.


Well anyways, I am also quite surprised at the 'Franchise' products getting through without seemingly appropriot testing.
While I've experienced bugs in alot of games, up until a year ago I firmly believed that the rushed Tomb Raider : Angel of Darkness was one of the buggiest games around. Spyro:ETD though makes it look perfectly stable though!

You know that if a budget developer tried to do that, they'd be turned down instantly.
It is a very sad truth, but there seem to be a number of titles that get through the gold status simply because they have a name that sells.

Thank god some companies fully test in-house before letting publishers near it.

[post.edit]
I would suggest getting ahold of YaBASIC just to try it for your PS2. There is no point in me explaining why this wasn't a suggestion in the first place


CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 09:13
@Raven

I am only mentioning this because you have the nerve to critique others:

Quote: "In the mean time you could try developing an Internet Browser with a build-in spell checker"


The term is "built-in"

Quote: "...'Franchise' products getting through without seemingly appropriot testing"


er, that would be spelled Appropriate

Guess you had better get coding that spell checker

Classic Raven, gotta love it.


DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
JoelJ
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 09:24 Edited at: 15th Nov 2004 09:28
last time i checked, alot isn't a word either.

hey raven, why dont you ever come on IRC anymore? we all miss you there, you should visit more often.



and you didnt
Ian T
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 09:51
CattleRustler beat me to it. Nobody's about to jump on some innocent spelling mistakes usually, but if you take to critisizing other people about it, you have to expect an eye for an eye (I know from experience)

[center]
The majority of voters agree that 49% != wrong.
JoelJ
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 09:54
i think that the Xbox, PS2, NGC all suck, and that you should focus on making games for the PC lol.

the current gerneration of consoles suck, i mean, they are good MACHINES, but they need better games, all the good games on them, would be better on the pc (IE, Halo(2))


Don't you wish you were that hot?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 10:26
Quote: "er, that would be spelled Appropriate"


yup much better spelt .. heh, my mistakes with spelling and such are few. especially considering the size of my posts.


FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 10:49
Yeah, I don't get why some amateurs want to develop games for consoles. I mean, developing for the PC is good enough for me and most people around here. Besides, translating a game from the PC to a gaming console doesn't sound easy.

HP Pavilion | Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.40 GHz
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JoelJ
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 11:43
Quote: "especially considering the size of my posts."

yeah, honestly, you should try cutting down on the sizes of em


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flibX0r
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 17:44
Quote: "are they just not very gd with c++"


Sorry, can't resist, but yes, these people must not be very good at all, becuase c++ is great for making games. Yes its a litle technical, but its better because of it because you have more control

Quote: "a game from the PC to a gaming console doesn't sound easy"


PC -> Playstation 2, Game Cube, yes it is hard. The architecture of them is very different

PC -> XBOX, no not as hard, they are very similar


Join the Expert Discussion forums dag nammit!
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empty
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 18:02
Quote: "my mistakes with spelling and such are few."

*cough*

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Version 1.02 available now!
Van B
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 18:18
People often forget the whole structure behind most game companies.

I mean, the eggheads dealing with the C++ are mostly the engine programmers, designers would be more likely to use editors and scripting languages. A designer might go on to develop more advanced game logic using C++, but it would'nt be anything like what the engine team would deal with, probably more like condition and variable handling.

Engine programmers tend to stick to just that - it's probably quite a dull job, more for the geniuses out there.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
michael young
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 23:37
right if its so easy to change a PC game to an X-BOX how come they brought games like the sims out for the pc and only made them for the ps2 or did i just not notice that they didnt come out for the X-BOX? and y dont they just make like final fantasy games for the x-box because some came out for the pc and ps2 and if its easy to change them then y didnt bring it out for the xbox? beacuse the xbox dosnt have many good games (rpg games) and the only game i like for it is halo and halo2, they could of made loads of money bring such good games like ff out on the xbox?
Chris K
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 23:55
PS2 probably payed a lot of money to stop FF games coming out on other platforms.

Just like Microsoft payed a lot of money to stop Halo coming out on PC.
Mx5 kris
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 00:26
It is on pc. They actually paid for it to go onto pc.

Van B
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 00:31
The actual conversion process can be quick, but the game still has to go through the QA ragime - so it's never straightforward. Licensing is the main issue, it would be nice if any game could come out on any system that would run it - but console prices are so low that licensing is about the best way to make money in the console world. Put this way, if there's a game I really want for the gamecube, I'll go out and buy a gamecube for like £45 or something rediculous like that, then I'd probably pay the same again for the game.

You see, when they first released the XBox, Mr.Gates decided that there must have a good strong foundation of games for it. So M$ pretty much went through a copy of PS2 Magazine (or whatever) and ticked about 60 titles to be converted, and converted they were. Unfortunately they were identical to their PS2 counterparts - leaving a lot of people wondering why they'd been so excited about the box. That's largely why Halo was so huge, because the alternatives were pretty lame (Oddworld was good, but not what most people go for). Nowadays though, we get to put that sorry start behind us because we have to wait months on XBox versions; San Andreas for example - but if the XBox version of San Andreas has had the extra time well spent on it, then I don't mind waiting at all.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Pricey
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 02:00
The Dreamcast is not unlike the XBox at all. If you look on the front you will see the Microsoft Windows CE logo. Most of the games have Windows CE on the disk, when you put the game in, it loads up the OS and compiles the game. So basically, if you can program CE then you can program the Dreamcast, of course there would have to be some changes to the Input/Output, such as the TV output instead of the monitor. Once I'm a little older, I might try to program a Dreamcast as a hobby like I program DBPRO now. It would be very rewarding I think

I actually have an Assembly programming tool for the Gameboy, which looks way too hard to use! You need a special writer to write them to cartriges, but you can just save them as a *.rom file and run them on an emulator though.

Dodo
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 02:24
Quote: "YBASIC"


its actually YABASIC. It used to come on the disc that comes with the PS2, but I don't think it does anymore. I have a copy and it really sucks. It is a PS2 version of this.

Also, you can get linux for the PS2.

Part of solving the problem is actually noticing that the problem is there in the first place

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 02:27
Quote: "right if its so easy to change a PC game to an X-BOX how come they brought games like the sims out for the pc and only made them for the ps2 or did i just not notice that they didnt come out for the X-BOX?"


TheSims Busting Out (Console version) is on all formats, don't know about what TheSims2 is out on though.

Quote: "and y dont they just make like final fantasy games for the x-box because some came out for the pc and ps2 and if its easy to change them then y didnt bring it out for the xbox? "


Well there is actually a long an explicit explaination on why this is.. Short version though; Square-Enix don't believe in the X-Box's potencial.

Quote: "beacuse the xbox dosnt have many good games (rpg games) and the only game i like for it is halo and halo2, they could of made loads of money bring such good games like ff out on the xbox? "


The X-Box's games fit it's market. It's clearly aimed at the english young adult male population; FPS, Racing, Beat'em up, etc...
It's literally a collection of testosterone fueled games; Microsoft have thier market and they make quite a bit from it.

Thing you have to remember ahout companies like Square-Enix, and Capcom. The way they tend to keep franchises on a single machine at a time; it is because they do it to limit pipelines.
While it is very simple for a development team working on PC Games to alter thier pipeline (it is almost literally a case of changing headers and control systems) to the X-Box, doing it from the specilised consoles is a pain in the rear end!

GameCube and Playstation2 title development methods are quite far removed, meaning you tend to either want to use Middleware like Renderware OR several teams porting at the same time. Sometimes altering pipelines is more problems than worth.


Chris K
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 04:59
Quote: " It is on pc. They actually paid for it to go onto pc."


Halo was originally for PC. I remember reading a preview in PC Gamer in about 1999.

Microsoft saw how awesome it was and bought it as their flagship xbox game.

I remember the headline for the review of Halo when it finally did come out on PC (in PC Gamer) was-

"After a brief trip to save the xbox Halo finally returns to the PC"
AlecM
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 15:21
Quote: "You know, it might be interesting to use Renderware to create a BASIC language around.

I mean it gives all of the features that DarkBASIC Professional does, and more. Hmm wonder why that never struct me before."


Maybe because Renderware is one of the most expensive pieces of middleware to license.


Buy it
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 17:48
Quote: "Maybe because Renderware is one of the most expensive pieces of middleware to license."


Renderware is not even CLOSE to the most expensive middleware.
Single License (Per Platform) will set you back $50,000.

When you consider this against Havok Physics Engine, which will put you back $120,000 Single License (Per Platform); not to mention that Renderware is a complete system not just Physics. You might start to understand how much brunt the publisers take for initial start up just for engine licensing.


BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 14:17
Then there's the actual development licenses for consoles.....

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 14:20
yeah, but you'd need that no matter what you were using


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