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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] JFK reloaded. Is this sick or what?

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:11
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Well there has been a game recently released on the net, called JFK reloaded, it essentially puts you in the boots of Oswald, and allows you to shoot president John F kennedy, who was assasinated in 1969 (I believe) by Oswald. Is this sick or what? Now I have no problem with sniping people in games, because usually the people you are sniping are nameless, and fictional, but this was a reall person, who really died a horrible death, and to see a game capatalize on the death of this man, is just plain wrong to me. Being that most of the forum readers are british, I will say this, what would you think of a game in which you play as a Nazi sniper, taking pot shots at Winston Churchhill! (spelling?). I just want to see other peoples views on this.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:15
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Firstly, I dont know MUCH about the JFK incident, but I have heard that you cant actually see where the motocade thingy was when he was shot from the library/museum thing (which I have also heard has been called the snipers nest or something).. I got this from a comedian called Bill Hicks who died about 10 years ago. Like I say, I dont know this for fact as a comedian said it.. but he said it in a lot of shows and that kinda implies he was never told to stop due to it being untrue..

Anywho.. That does sound a sick game.. Made by a sick person no doubt.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:26
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Its by a british company... but like that matters.

It's not sick, its history. Nobody has a problem with Call of Duty, IT go's about killing Germans in WW2. But if we had a game which we played as the Nazi's, everyones all up in it. Deal with it you babies.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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ionstream
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:30
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Must... resist... flaming...



"Some who die deserve life, and some who live deserve death. Can you give it to them, Frodo?" - Gandalf the Grey
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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:31
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Please flame my opinion as you want, I just stated an opinion. It's not my fault people can't handle history.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:34 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 08:36
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Quote: "Nobody has a problem with Call of Duty"


Uh, but Call of Duty has you killing nameless fictional soldiers, because in any WW2 game, none of the things you did in that game were done in exactly the same way, the people are different, the situation is changed for the sake of entertainment, in many cases the only thing the game's battles share with their real life counterparts is the name. JFK reloaded has you killing a person on a personal level, that person actually lived, and that persons family is still alive to this day, and you have to have more simpathy for a person, than to make a game that capatalizes on his death to gain a quick buck, that is beyond the realm of good taste in my opinion.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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ionstream
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:37
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Dude, it's not that people can't HANDLE history. It's just that they don't want people to play a game about killing a president FOR FUN. You can't see the problem in that?

Imagine if you were a brother of John Kennedy, and you were there when you heard that he died. Would you really want people to play a game about your brother's murder?



"Some who die deserve life, and some who live deserve death. Can you give it to them, Frodo?" - Gandalf the Grey
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:38
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You know what sickens me about this whole game? Is that it is using JFK's assasination as a way to get money, that is wrong!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:39 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 08:40
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Quote: "capatalize"


There's the flaw in your argument: If it's free, it's not capitalizing is it

Quote: "I just want to see other peoples views on this."


My view is that it's disrespectful and probably stupid, but hardly a big deal. The guy's dead, and while I would never make something like that myself, there's no need to kick up a fuss about it.

Quote: "I have heard that you cant actually see where the motocade thingy was when he was shot from the library/museum thing"


True, we don't know for sure it was that guy, but no other really likely suspects ever appeared .

Quote: "It's not sick, its history."


The two can and often do go hand in hand... does the fact that something happened instantly make it okay to make a game out of? The argument looks a little weaker when applied to, say, a Jack the Ripper rape-and-murder simulator .

Quote: "Nobody has a problem with Call of Duty, IT go's about killing Germans in WW2. But if we had a game which we played as the Nazi's, everyones all up in it."


Urban legend IMO. The American/Western World/Whatever propaganda card is completely untrue, as evidenced by, offhand, Counter-Strike, where you can (and have to, to master it) play as terrorists attempting to kill people directly and indirectly in assorted ways. I really doubt there'd be much of a ruckus except in the strongly conservative camps if a game came out where you played as a nazi. In fact... y'know what? My bet is that a good deal of people would hail it as art... just because it breaks another little taboo in the same old way.

My two cents.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:39
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Quote: "but Call of Duty has you killing nameless fictional soldiers,"


Nameless fictional soldiers that are based on a real army that existed with real humans. They had families, friends, all of it. They symbolize the soldiers that we're actually there. But some people are to broad to realize that.

I don't agree with the Assasination of JFK, but it is part of history. I've always wanted to live out different parts of history, and this is one of them. But yet, everyone is gonna claim "If you play this game, your a terrorist in training". Sad, that the world is filled with people who can't handle the violence history is.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:40
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Once again... it's not about not being able to handle it. How is objecting to a game made of something being 'not able to handle it'? I rest my case made above .

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:40
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Mouse, @ the CS refrence.

You can never actually kill the hostages, money gets taken away for it . The only goal is to keep the hostages alive and the CT's away.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:42
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Quote: "There's the flaw in your argument: If it's free, it's not capitalizing is it "


but the game is like 10 dollars.

You could make a game where you get to play as the Iraqi insurgence, getting points to hack a real persons head off, and it would be the same thing.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:43 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 08:44
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Quote: "
You can never actually kill the hostages"


Didn't say that, see

Quote: "attempting to kill people directly and indirectly"


Hostages and innocent people are killed indirectly through achieving the objectives at the end of a mission, IE blowing up a building. The people directly killed are the counter-terrorists.

Quote: "You could make a game where you get to play as the Iraqi insurgence, getting points to hack a real persons head off, and it would be the same thing."


Yes, true. And it is sick, and it's also using real horrific events to bolster its 'novelty value'-- which is, again, disrespectful and sick, I think.

The fact that "it happened" doesn't change that .

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:43
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Quote: "
Nameless fictional soldiers that are based on a real army that existed with real humans. They had families, friends, all of it. They symbolize the soldiers that we're actually there. But some people are to broad to realize that."


Do you get my point? You must agree with me that in a WW2 game they never have you kill a nazi on a personal level. You have no naim of that person, and the fact is, that there was never a person in that same situation in that same war, because the whole thing is made up!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:44
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Sick sometimes means cool. I don't care that there are games that have you killing real people, because it doesn't matter, I don't have to play those games, and they don't mean anything(except that the creator hates the target). And there are games where you kill Saddam Husien for example and you don't mention those. Nameless fisctional soilders still represent real soilders. And usially I play Nazis on BF1942 because I prefer Nazis.

Quote: "and you have to have more simpathy for a person"

Why?

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:47
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I don't have problems with games killing Osama, or Saddam, becaus those are really bad individuals, but when you take a good person, who did nothing wrong, and make a game about their murder, you have gone a little far.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:48
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Quote: "And there are games where you kill Saddam Husien for example and you don't mention those."


Gee, I think there's a bit of difference between killing a generally decent world power icon who was ruthlessly assassinated in simulation, and killing a maniacal mass murderer in simulation who was not assassinated or even excecuted (yet).

Quote: "Nameless fisctional soilders still represent real soilders."


No, they are absolutely not meant to. Do you really think the fun factor of those games comes from thinking 'gee, I'm killing all these people, this is great!'?

Quote: "Why?"


Axiom of life and civilization.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:48
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Actually, I want to see a game from the "other side" of the war on terrorism. I want to see the other side of things, its part of the learning process.
Quote: "
Do you get my point? You must agree with me that in a WW2 game they never have you kill a nazi on a personal level. You have no naim of that person, and the fact is, that there was never a person in that same situation in that same war, because the whole thing is made up!"


Representation, thats what the group of Poly's is. It represent's a person who had a name, who lived, and who died on that battlefield. So what if we don't know who it represents, all i know, is that it represents someone whom existed in the past.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Tifu
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:51 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 08:53
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I thought it was $10, and the free version just lets you watch, so it is making money... [edit] nevermind, someone already mentiones that while I was typng [/edit]

Anyway, if you actually visit the site and read the motivation behind it... the aim of the game is apparently (I mean, the aim the creators had, not the objective in-game) to prove that there was no conspiracy. That oswald could have done the assasination as outlined in the... like, official police report thing... the games aim is to allow people to see firsthand that it was possible, thus disprove conspiracy theorists. So they say anyway...

The motivation for creating such a game is important to discussing if it is evil or not, surely I have no real opinion on the whole shebang, but thought I should point that out... er..


http://www.blackmoth.net
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:54 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 08:56
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Quote: "You can't see the problem in that?"

No. Do you really care what someone else does that doesn't affect you in any way? Probably even JFK doesn't care.

Quote: "Would you really want people to play a game about your brother's murder?"

I wouldn't care. Anyone who plays that game doesn't have an opinion about JFK or hates him anyway. Playing a game won't do anything for them.

Quote: "Is that it is using JFK's assasination as a way to get money, that is wrong!"

Apperantly the creators and anyone who buys the game think otherwize.

Quote: "You could make a game where you get to play as the Iraqi insurgence, getting points to hack a real persons head off,"

You don't have to buy it. You don't have to care about it. It won't get anyone anywere.

Quote: "You have no naim of that person"

And if you did, I doubt anyone would care.

Quote: "who did nothing wrong"

In your opinion.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:55
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Quote: "Representation, thats what the group of Poly's is. It represent's a person who had a name, who lived, and who died on that battlefield. So what if we don't know who it represents, all i know, is that it represents someone whom existed in the past."


Uh no, the devs just took a modeling program, created a humanoid, game him a nazi uniform, and stuck it in the game, it is just supposed to represent an obstactle on your path, not a reall person, if it was supposed to represent reall people on the battlefield, they would put them in the exact place that person was, have them do the exact same thing that person did, and have you kill them in the exact same way that person was killed, all of this is done in JFK reloaded, none of this is done in any WW2 game I have played.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:57
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If something represented something, it wouldn't have to nesesarly do what they did.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 08:59
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Well I was just getting the point across, that what you are fighting in a WW2 game, is just supposed to be an obstactle on your path, that is what any game enemy is, an obstacle, it's just that the devs make it a german to fit in with the games historical context.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:00
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Ilya, stop it with the "in your opinion" crap please. It can be pulled up as a response to anything and means nothing. I mean, no crap sherlock, who else's opinion would it be? You need a Maddox lesson

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:04
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I would hav had no problem with this game, if it were free, but sense It costs money, I feel it is charging money for a front row seet to a persons gruesome death. And come on, the devs excuse for making the game is so silly, hell I could make a game called " charles manson reloaded" that allows you to play as charles manson and gruesomly murder people and say "well I made it to show that charles manson could have actually pulled off the murders", same crap.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:12
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Quote: "no crap sherlock, who else's opinion would it be?"

So, since it's an opinion, it does not mean that you went "a little too far".

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:17
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What would your opinions be if we we're to say, Take the JFK model, change it to a ficitonal person, and change the city to something else but still similar, but other then that, everything was the same. Essentially, thats what I feel games like CoD do. They replace the real people with ficitonal creations. From there we go around and murder them. We get mad when they shoot us, we take revenge on they're computer form. We watch them die, bleed and scream on screen. But its alright, they are fictional, there is no problem with that.

How about this, I take a fictional group of terrorists, and a fictional plane filled with americans. I then have you play as a terrorist killing the pilots, and crashing you into a building that resembles the World Trade Center. By the definitions i am hearing from you people, ficitonal killing is alright, even if everything fictional is based on a real object or being.

But of course that would be wrong, cause you playing as a terrorist. "Your not the good guy, this is bad."

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:20
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Quote: "So, since it's an opinion, it does not mean that you went "a little too far"."


Bull . Everything's an opinion and pointing it out proves nothing about his argument.

Quote: ""Your not the good guy, this is bad.""


What's so bad about that? Seems cheesy but the fact is that, when it comes down to it, it's everyone's job to "play" the good guy in life.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:25
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Quote: "Is that it is using JFK's assasination as a way to get money, that is wrong!"


Tell that to Oliver Stone.

Quote: "But if we had a game which we played as the Nazi's, everyones all up in it."


As in that extremely popular game Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

Cheers,

Rich (who obviously can see the wood for the trees)

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:26
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If the game you mentioned above is free, I have no problem with it, I have a problem with a game when a guy is making a game that uses a persons death to make money.

But even still your point is faulty, the fact is that most have are far from historically accurate, the battlefields are so different from the reall ones that it is unrecognizable, and yes the enemies are supposed to represent nazis, but they are created and used in such a vague and on such a non personell level, that I have not problem with it. If a WW2 game came out, in which ever german soldier I killed, was based off of a reall soldier during that war, and is given the name of that person, and are told to kill that person in the same way they were killed, I will immediatly have a problem with it.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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andrew11
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:33
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I think its more of a simulation than a full game. Also, you're really paying to enter the contest to win $100,000. I dont know whether the author had something more evil in mind or not.


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:36 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 09:38
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Well.....first medal of honor or one of the other ones does have real people. it tells you to kill high ranking german generals in the game, but in the war that did not happen, so it is alright with me. I think it is wrong. I dont want a huge post, so I will just point some of that stuff out.



Bye

I am a person with the intelligence of a google bot.
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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:36
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Quote: "Tell that to Oliver Stone."


I'm sure many have tried... I hope him and Geraldo Rivera get caught together in the most unfortunate of Mortar accidents after geraldo draws they're location in a etch sketch dealy. (Oh no, i'm joking about death... throw a lawyer at me.)



As for the RtCW, you lost me there, as I have never played the game. Never really appealed to me.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:40
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Well you claimed that everbody would get all wound up if you played as a german in a game, but BF 1942 is quite popular nowdays, I had not problem playing the german missions in Soldiers:Heroes of WW2, and playing as a german in the multiplayer portion or RTCW sure didn't get people mad, it is not whether or not you play as a bad guy, it is whether or not you know who you are killing, if you believe you are killing a fictional person, it is no biggy, but when you start killing a person that really did die, well I would just feel so, dirty.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Eric T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:49
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BF1942- Don't get me started on how that... as much as I love it (mostly for the BFpirates mod ), I hate it.

Soldiers:Heroes of WW2- Never heard of this one (so damn many to keep track fo these days).

RTCW- Ahh so its the multiplayer that you play as a nazi. Cleared a few things up. But not sure what my ruling is on Satanic Occult Nazi's... not very accurate if ya ask me

In the end, my point is this. To people its ok if you kill people who are only "Based" genericlly off of people who actually existed. No problem till it becomes you killing someone who actually existed, but in video game form.

And sorry for any sloppy typing that I have done, kinda tired from that one chemical in turkey that makes you tired. Forgot its name.

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:53
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Is that why I have been tired all day? Darn turkey .

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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andrew11
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 09:53
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Thats tryptophan


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 10:11
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That must of been why I was so horrible at golf today

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 10:27
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Quote: "As in that extremely popular game Return to Castle Wolfenstein."

I thought you kill Nazis.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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andrew11
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 10:31 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 11:34
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[edit] oops


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 11:15
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http://www.jfk-reloaded.com

That's the website, but I'd like to know what happened to the grassy knoll?!!


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Ilya
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 11:24
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Quote: "But if we had a game which we played as the Nazi's, everyones all up in it."


Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 11:25
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it would have been a much more entersting game, if they put you in positions that people thought the bullet came from, and let you see if it was possible, and sense that would have very hypothetical, I would have been fine with it.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 11:44 Edited at: 26th Nov 2004 11:45
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I played the demo, which is exactly the same as the real game, except you can't actually fire the shot (pressing the fire key just shows a "Pay $10 for the full version" message). Just like the actual event, the game lasts about 30 seconds and all you do is look through the scope, aim with the mouse, and press fire when he's in view. No one in their right mind would pay $10 for that, the main appeal is that if you fire at the exact same time that Harvey Oswald 'apparently' did, you win $100,000. The game looks very poor and I think most of the people here could do a better job with DBP.

It's not at all 'sick', it's just stupid. I'd say an idea similar to Major Payn's would be a lot better, not to mention actually worth spending money on.


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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 11:58
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Quote: "You need a Maddox lesson "


Well that's your opinion.



Had to say that hehehe

I think this game is harmless. Politicians always find ways to break the game industry's balls, and this is no different. Sure, if I was JFK's relative, I would be offended. Doesn't mean it should be pulled. Free speech, man.

JFK's assasination is still recent. If there was a game where you could assasinate Lincoln, I doubt as many people would care (tons of people would, but a lot less).


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 13:21
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I think to most people the JFK assasination really isn't that big of a deal. I mean if you think about it, not many people have a problem playing a seriel killer in that controversal game I can't remember the name of but I'm sure someone here will..

Add to this, it isn't actually a historical recreation.
LHO was never *actually* proven to kill JFK. All the evidence against him was circumstancial, the american public just wanted to see someone hang for it.

Alot like the recent Iraqi conflict, nothing about that was set in stone.. people just needed someone to blame. Who better than someone with a shady history who could be given ties to the crime at hand.

At the end of the day, it's just a game.. If you find it offensive, don't buy it. Personally I don't even feel like playing it because it sounds boring, but if there was the whole build up where you had to live the 'suspected' few days before, like Beckett did in Quantum Leap. Make it into a Semi-Adventure game, I could see that being fun to play.

At the end of the day, no ammount of wishing could bring JFK back, further more he was lucky to go down in a blaze like that rather than an impeached whimper.. because it is well documented her was a ladies man just like Clinton.

Anyone remember that Red Dwarf episode where they pop-in on LHO when he's about to take the shot, realise what's happening, go back in time, get Lincon and then beat the ever living snot out of LHO. Heh, that was a weird episode.


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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 14:07
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Quote: "Add to this, it isn't actually a historical recreation."


Actually it is. History is generally guesswork, and like so many other things, with the JFK assassination we'll never know for certain sure.


I got the demo too. As I mentioned to Eric on MSN, it's a poor simulation: no people cheering JFK on, flags and banners getting in the way of your shot, cars before or after JFK's... I mean seriously, it's got no appeal for gameplay, all it's got left is the realism aspect which isn't that good. I'm with Exeat .

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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 14:52
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Quote: "I think to most people the JFK assasination really isn't that big of a deal. I mean if you think about it, not many people have a problem playing a seriel killer in that controversal game I can't remember the name of but I'm sure someone here will.."


You're probably thinking of RockStar's 'Manhunt', personally, I thought that was the shittest game I've ever played. After a few levels I had to stop because it was just pointless, repetitive, violence with absolutely no story at all. I believe it has since been banned from Australia because some guy confessed to murder after playing it.


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 15:34
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yeah that's the game.. i never actually played it, honestly didn't see the appeal of playing it; in Hitman your doing the same sort of thing, only your supposidly a good guy.

Quote: "Actually it is. History is generally guesswork, and like so many other things, with the JFK assassination we'll never know for certain sure."


It would be a historical recreation *if* they'd taken an event that was known to have happened, and added in what was suspected. After all LHO diaries of those events were made public.
But it's just a 5minute sniper game, in the end they could swap anything into it and it would be no different.. The only historical accuracy is the characters, but the actual event itself is 'suspicion' alone.


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