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Geek Culture / views on DarkBasic...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:17
Alright, this isn't in DBPro simply because this is nothing to do with getting things fixxed in DBPro. This is unlikely to be seen or cared about by the staff, so leave the rants & personal vendettas at the door.

I want to know what you would like to see from the DarkBASIC Language, further more what you believe was good and what was bad.
What features you wished would work, and what features you thing work just right.

Please READ other peoples posts as not to repeat them, and please DO NOT start a debate on things. I would like to see Bugs, Features, and such shown and expanded upon here.

This isn't an open chance to discuss other languages, or pit Vs battles... this is PURELY DarkBasic as a Language.

Are you happy with the executable size?
Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library?
Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how?
Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional?
Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine?
Is Real-World Physics important to your games?
Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?

Those are the sorts of things I'm looking for...


PowerSoft
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:22
Exe size is a bit too big in my opinion and more control over the creation of the exe as in whats included what isnt would be nice.





(is the thread reBC or reBP?)


Create? Play? YOU Decide
David T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:33
I'd like to have more control over final screen output, without using dot() (I suppose it is possible using get pixels pointer()?) because I'd love to do some hand made pixel shaders, if you get what I mean

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PiratSS
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:43
I'd like to see:

- a shader lib, where we can EASILY download & apply shaders on objects
- MDL,MD2&MD3 Support LIKE PROMISSED!
- Faster Loading & Smaller exe size(12 KB)
- The collision was fine MOST of the time until I started scaling .X objects by 100000. You will see in my Penguin Run that I made a hidden collision box around cars and penguins because the DBPro collision didn't work properly

That's all I think.
TKF15H
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:47
All the things I'd like changed can only be done by modifying the core:
-Function Pointers
-more freedom with arrays
-Function Pointers
-type constructors/destructors
-initialization of DX ONLY when necessary
-the ability to bake pie
-new/delete

Cian Rice
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 01:51
Real World Physics would be nice...

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Neofish
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:02
This has already been said but I'll make more points:

The compiler should work out which DLLs are used and which are not according to the code in the file being compiled. This would increase compile time BUT more importantly shrink the files.

Hmmm what else...I'll post again if I think of anything


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:15
Me.. A better IDE.. I'll think of more later

Apart from that I think the language is GREAT!! If you want more power, then i'd recomend using C++ and OpenGL OR DirectX.. That way you have complete control over what gets done.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:18
I'll make this quick...

Are you happy with the executable size? - No

Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library? - Runtime

Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how? -Not really, never been a fan of OOP, but still have to use it anyway

Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional? - DBC1

Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine? - Yes

Is Real-World Physics important to your games? - Depends what I'm doing

Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline? - Yes

Bleh, I've just given up on trying to think up signatures.
Manticore Night
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:19
New commands: -Make FF7
-Make Halo
-Make MMORPG

Ok, I'll be serious. Maybe some better DeBuggers.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:19 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 02:22
Quote: "I'd like to have more control over final screen output, without using dot() (I suppose it is possible using get pixels pointer()?) because I'd love to do some hand made pixel shaders, if you get what I mean "

You might wanna check out the thread I'm gonna start over in program anouncements tonight/tomorrow about something ..

EDIT:

Quote: "Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine? - Yes"
Thats an idea.....

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Chris K
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:22
@ David T

Check out "Wold 3D with shaders" in the WIP board. You could certainly code some simple pixel shaders like negatives in DBPro.
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 02:45
Quote: "Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?"


Why do you want that? If you want to go that deep into 3D Game making, would it not be worth learning a more appropriate language like C++ or C# or something? That'd probably also shrink your EXE size too

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 03:39
Quote: "This isn't an open chance to discuss other languages, or pit Vs battles... this is PURELY DarkBasic as a Language."


erm, guess who's collecting info for Direct-Basic, or is it called Luma now.

Quote: "Are you happy with the executable size?"


They could be smaller. The memory footprint is more important than the binary footprint though.

Quote: "Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library?"


either, no preference.

Quote: "Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how?"


By building a better infrastructure through out the core language. More flexibly data types, Classes...

Quote: "Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional?"


Neither

Quote: "Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine?"


If you mean via masking, then no, there's far better (faster) alternatives.

Quote: "Is Real-World Physics important to your games?"


no..

Quote: "Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?"


yes.

Kevin Picone
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Play Nice! Play Basic - Next Generation Basic (Release V1.03 Out Now)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 03:53
Quote: "erm, guess who's collecting info for Direct-Basic, or is it called Luma now. "


Luma is an Engine, not a Language. As for collecting information about DirectBasic, not exactly no. Even if I were, what's the harm considering my track record.

.. For the rest of the comments, alot of them are good; but the questions were just samples; if you could try to expand out


Chris K
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 04:01 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 04:02
So you're making a language now? What happened to Deliverence?

Built in physics would be cool.
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 04:29
The one thing DBP did well was it was left open for expansion, via a plug-in system. Definitly a plus, and almost a standard for all commercial game engines/programming languages.

Are you happy with the executable size?
No, they need to be at least half the size.

Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library?
N/A

Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how?
Yes. Just do it like C# or Java and I'm happy. Either go full OO, or none ,in my opinion, is the best option.

Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional?
Only used DBP, and they work fine enough for me.

Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine?
Definitly.

Is Real-World Physics important to your games?
As of now, no. Something for me to consider in future projects though. I like the direction Newton is going right now, so I'll probebly look into that for DBP. Built in commands for a physics engine isn't necessary for me, but definitly leaving an option for a plug-in is a good idea.

Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?
Of course.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:07
@DavidT: This might interest you: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=43257&b=1

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:14
The "Error at line ..." message is flawed if you have multiple include files in your project. It shows the line number AFTER everything is parsed into one file, so you might get a "Error at line 646", when your include file only has 200 lines.

It should say "Error at line 182 in "UNTITLED.DBA".



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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:23 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 07:24
I think they should let you have more control over the shadow "shader". First, they should rename the command Set Shadow Shading to Set Stencil Shadow. It is misleading to call it a "shader" since it just needs stencil buffer support in the hardware to show up. Second, there needs to be more options. Rather than just:

Set Shadow Shading On, ObjectID

They should have:

Set Stencil Shadow On, ObjectID, Opacity, Shadow Mode, LOD Detail

Where Opacity is a number from 0 to 255, Shadow mode lets you turn on or off self-shadowing, and LOD Detail allows a lower poly shadow (Like in games such as Super Smash Bros. Melee) for better performance.

As of now, it's dumb how the shadow isn't dark enough (In my opinion), self-shadowing is not an option (You are stuck with it), and you can only make a low-poly shadow to get a good framerate by using invisible models.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:39
Is there a reason for asking for any of this?

Ask 20,000 coders what they'd like to see in a language and you'll get 20,000 different answers.

Doesn't mean any of them are right / wrong.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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empty
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:49
Quote: "Luma is an Engine, not a Language."

And what "was" Luma Basic then? I mean it was "finished" and everything.



Quote: "Ask 20,000 coders what they'd like to see in a language and you'll get 20,000 different answers.

Doesn't mean any of them are right / wrong."

It depends on how close they are to _my_ POV.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 08:05 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 08:09
There is no real reason for asking this, right now i'm simply 'interested' in responses to what people like or dislike about DarkBASIC. What they feel works and what they feel doesn't.

While your right this'll lead to a number of different views and opinions, as well as numerous work-around reports. I hope that will be the outcome will be a pattern.

Like, do people feel a bugged Official IDE has deminished thier experience with DBP?
Do they like the way they have control over Data Types, or do they feel that the Types don't go far enough?

Is the support they receive make them feel like something is being done when they report a bug?
What key areas of the language make it appealing to use, and which make it a nightmare?

yes thier responses will be different, which is good.. it will provide a nice broad sense of what everyone likes. the extended benifit though is that eventually a pattern will emerge.

while i acknowlaged above that this is somewhat about DirectBasic, this is more about trying to provide something for each of the language developers around here to benifit from, probably TGC more so than anyone.

also, i'm really really really interested in, behind all that bitching what people ACTUALLY like about DBPro. i mean, i know what i like about the languages.. but it is very rare to see someone on the forum sitting down and saying something like,

'god I love how DarkBASIC Professionals Collision works!'

because while the commands are slow, they are incredibly simple to impliment. it is things like that which might breath some life into what people feel about the product.

Quote: "And what "was" Luma Basic then? "

a Codename.. if you knew it was completed, then you'd also know what it is currently called.


David T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 18:45
Quote: "Check out "Wold 3D with shaders" in the WIP board. You could certainly code some simple pixel shaders like negatives in DBPro"


Saw that a while ago, didn't know there was any code though Thanks.

Quote: "@DavidT: This might interest you: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=43257&b=1"


Thanks also.

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DrakeX
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 22:04 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 22:06
"Are you happy with the executable size?
Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library?"

i think these two kind of go hand in hand. properly implemented, a runtime can be small enough to pack with the EXE, but DBP's runtime is very, very large. having a statically linked library would probably reduce the EXE size drastically. think about it - how many hundreds of functions are there in each DLL? if you use one, do you need the whole thing?

"Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how?"

more than what there is now, definitely. type pointers with new/delete and passing byref would up the usefulness of types a hundredfold. come on TGC, you're C++ programmers - when's the last time you created all your classes on the stack and passed them byval? that's just bad programming practice.

"Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional?"

i've never really had a preference for either, as i've never run into a problem with either. they work fine for me.

"Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine?"

no. i WOULD, however, like to see a 2d vector collision engine. you can't exactly do sliding slope collision and proper physics if all you know is that 2 objects are overlapping. if that never appears, it's easy enough to make one with NGC, too.

"Is Real-World Physics important to your games?"

sometimes. but that's why we have newton, ODE, and tokamak they're already fully functional, no need for TGC to reinvent the wheel. an official wrapper would be nice, however.

"Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?"

that'd be nice, but i'm not real sure how they'd implement it. besides, there's not much that you can't do now that making access to the pipeline would allow for.

some more.

- What other language features would you like to see?

along with the statically linked runtime, i'd like to see COFF support. that is, all DBP code is compiled to an actual standard COFF. this would make it possible to make TPCs that don't need DLLs, and would also enable users to use some libs that are designed for C/C++. but i don't want to be bothered with making sure i have all the libs for the runtime i.e. winmm.lib, d3dx9.lib etc. just libs that i want to add.

function pointers have already been mentioned, and they would help immensely with things like callbacks and general-purpose scripting engines (LUA). there are workarounds right now, but it would be so hot to write "SomeCFunctionThatWantsACallback &func".

byref, not just for TYPEs, but for all data types.

arrays in types. is it that hard to store a pointer to an array in a type?

more / better pointer support. typed pointers would be ideal, but that would probably make things a bit complex, especially if there's a byref system already in place. at the very least, we need an address-of operator.



i think the language itself really has been overlooked in the design of DBP. the engine has been written, rewritten, and updated constantly, but if you look at the list of language features / changes from DB1, it's pretty embarassing.

- TYPEs, rudimentary at best. darkedit had better types IMO.
- #constant. pretty useful, but messes up the line numbers in debug.
- more data types and "as." some data types are buggy, and there is not consistent support for all of them (no bitops on double ints?).
- strings longer than 255 characters. thank god.
- no variables with the same name as functions. broke a lot of my code, but for the better.
- very limited pointer syntax. it hasn't even been touched since DBP was released.
- very buggy debugger, to the the point of uselessness. CLI never works correctly, watch crashes, and step line numbers are screwed up by includes, #constants, etc.

and that's about it. compared to the list of changes the engine has undergone.. it's pretty ridiculous, don't you agree?

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 22:27
It's BASIC. I personally don't expect the world from basic, and am happy with DBP in its current state.

Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 23:01
Quote: "arrays in types. is it that hard to store a pointer to an array in a type?"

I second that . We need arrays in types. Yesterday I tried to do that then realised I couldn't.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 23:11
that's what I meant when I said, "-more freedom with arrays". Being able to put them in a type and using them as parameters.

Ilya
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 00:13
Quote: "I second that . We need arrays in types. Yesterday I tried to do that then realised I couldn't."

There goes my GUI system....

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 03:49 Edited at: 28th Nov 2004 03:51
Opption Explicit
ElseIf command
more parameters for CASE eg:

case 1,3,5,7,9
..
..
endcase

case 10...20,50...70
..
..
endcase


The word "Gullible" cannot be found in any English Dictionary.
Ilya
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 04:01
Quote: "ElseIf command"

DBP has that: Else If

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 04:07
no elseif is different

using else if:

if a=1
...
else
if a=2
...
else
if a=3
...
else
if a=3
...
endif
endif
endif
endif


using elseif command:

if a=1
...
elseif a=2
...
elseif a=3
...
elseif a=4
....
endif

its used in VB and PureBasic and probably others.


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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 04:09
Quote: "Are you happy with the executable size?
Do you like having the Runtime Library or prefer a Linker Style Library?
Do you want to see Object Orientation, and if so.. how?
Do you prefer the Rotation Commands in DarkBasic v1.0 or Professional?
Would you like to see a Pixel Perfect Collision Engine?
Is Real-World Physics important to your games?
Would you like to have direct access to the Rendering pipeline?"


1. No. It's larger than it should be.
2. I don't really want the program to depend on any external .dlls (Except for stuff like Newton and NGC).
3. If you're talking about OOP, then yes, I think it would be a good alternative to the system we have now, especially if deleting objects takes as long as it does to load them...
4. I haven't tried DBC yet, so I can't really comment on this.
5. Having one integrated in DBPro would be nice, but I could always just get Nuclear Glory Collision.
6. It depends on the game type. For racing games it is a must, but for FPS games they aren't necessary, they just make it more fancy.
7. That would be nice, but that sounds a bit advanced.

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DrakeX
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 10:49
"It's BASIC. I personally don't expect the world from basic"

DBP's being a BASIC language does not preclude it from being advanced. unlike C/C++, there is no set of ANSI standards for BASIC-style languages. because of this, there is nothing that says BASIC languages must be simple, slow, and for beginners. by now, it pretty much means that the syntax is Construct..EndConstruct as opposed to the C-style construct{..}. there are some other conventions that are followed in virtually every BASIC (simple string support that rapes C++, For loops are a bit simpler, etc), but BASIC just means a slightly different syntactical style.

sadly many people haven't got over this yet. the second someone hears "basic," they think "C64 basic" or "IBM basic." neither of which come even close to representing the BASIC languages of today. look at purebasic, powerbasic, ibasic, realbasic, and visual basic - none of which are slow, interpreted beginner's languages. purebasic rivals and sometimes beats C's speed. VB is probably the second most popular windows programming language after C++.

so please, don't let your preconceptions of what BASIC should be affect your wishes for the language.

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 14:23
Quote: "so please, don't let your preconceptions of what BASIC should be affect your wishes for the language."


well said

.FlashingBang, on-top of Multiple Constants, would you also like to see an Expressive for the Cases?

like:


(yeah i know silly example but i couldn't think of anything better lol)

thank you everyone else for your suggestions so far keep 'em comming


OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 17:55
Flashing Blade - use SELECT/CASE

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 18:06
Drake,

Agreed.

However, there are ANSI Basic definitions. ANSI Minimal Basic was defined way back in a 70's, and from memory, it really only covers the core Basic syntax (which probably even DB still use), plus some core command set (string commands for example). I do remember reading about a more up to date set of definitions, from the 80's .. Either way, obviously virtually nobody uses it.. It'd be different situation, if basic didn't come with a build in command sets.


Raven,

Expression in selects.. gezz too easy..

PB selects



Nestable of course..

Kevin Picone
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Play Nice! Play Basic - Next Generation Basic (Release V1.03 Out Now)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 19:19
Quote: "Expression in selects.. gezz too easy.. "


Yeah, but still something that DBP does not provide.
And that's what this is about, finding out what users like, don't like, find helps them or find is missing.

Just trying to understand how far peoples development needs extend.
Nice to see your plugging PlayBasic again though


Flashing Blade
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 20:00 Edited at: 28th Nov 2004 20:04
@ TCA , when you say use select/case - do you mean instead of else if?
what about someting like this



@ raven - yep stuff like your example - basicaly anything that will return boolean result like IF command.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 20:15
I that case you would use IF/ELSE/ENDIF

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 20:25 Edited at: 28th Nov 2004 20:29
My example above uses if/else/endif, its just elseif is neater and better for lazy people like me
CASE being able to take any argument that returns a boolean result would be best IMHO.

*Edit*
Actualy I wrong there - if case could act like I suggested then SEELECT would be pointless. Okay not handle any argument, just be able to check multiple parrameters e.g: CASE 1,2,5,7,9...12 etc


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Peter H
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 21:39
i'd like a way to know where an object is on the 2D screen


or an option to define a 2D box on the screen and test to see if an object is rendering to that area...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 21:43 Edited at: 28th Nov 2004 23:44
It may require the object in screen function, then...

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Benjamin
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 22:37
Quote: "i'd like a way to know where an object is on the 2D screen "


Aren't 'object screen x()' and 'object screen y() good enough for you then?

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Neofish
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 22:51
I think that is called Sarcasm


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Chris K
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Posted: 28th Nov 2004 23:09
No, I think he actually didn't know about those commands.
MikeS
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Posted: 29th Nov 2004 00:09
So he really meant DBP needs better docs, so he can find those commands, and perhaps a usage example.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Nov 2004 00:19
Quote: "So he really meant DBP needs better docs, so he can find those commands, and perhaps a usage example."

Did you ask him or are you just assuming that?

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MikeS
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Posted: 29th Nov 2004 00:45
No, I'm just assuming that, in trying to keep in topic with the thread. Even though docs don't have any effect on how well the engine performs, they can definitly help us find better ways to utilize commands and save us time. At this point, the DBP docs have done pretty well, but it'd be great for more usage examples.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Nov 2004 03:09
Quote: "At this point, the DBP docs have done pretty well, but it'd be great for more usage examples."

Agreed

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