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Geek Culture / Should you be making games?

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MicroMan
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 05:05 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 05:06
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That’s a harsh question at this time of day, but at least in my case I´ve come to the sad conclusion that I´m probably not cut out for making games.

No, it has nothing to do with coding skills, really. I think I could code a game – even though it would never be a Half Life 2.

Then again, game coding is the hardest kind of programming there is and you have to reinvent the wheel all the time. Application programmers can use Windows all the time, and rely on Windows. Or Linux, as the tastes may be. Game coders generally have to write everything – GUI, logic, input, output from scratch – to create a unique look to the game. A game coder has to balance a game, tune it, tweak it – which will always make game coding much more of a seat-of-the-pants kind of coding. But still, codingwize I think I could knock out a game. OTHO with DBP the coding part is fairly simple too.

But then should I, because coding is only a part of game making these days. These days you have to tell a story too, and you have to tell it well, and the story must be excellently produced. That’s where I fail, I think.

I’m too linear, too tight, too fuzzy, and the resulting orchestration and visualization becomes flat and boring. Or something. I think I’m content to be on the fringe, making apps that game coders can use to make games. Yeah.

I’ve asked the question whether I should be making games. The answer is sadly what I’ve said above. Now I could ask you all the same thing…

Should you be making games?

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Neofish
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 05:19
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I think yes. I love it, although I may not be a brilliant coder, I believe I can further myself to success

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Osiris
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 05:22
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its just supposed to be fun

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 05:58
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Very few games need a good story. Most games are all about coordination. If you can't think of good ideas for a game then you are not going to get far. Try mame Roms, and you will be able to test thousands of games, and then you may get an idea for a new game.

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MicroMan
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 06:05
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@Pincho Paxotn

Fortunately ideas are a dime a dozen. There's no shortage of ideas. As in any field the things is to turn the idea into a product, a game. I disagree that games don't need a good story. They do, though I'm not talking about a story like one in a book.

In gaming, as in any entertainment, you have to reach a suspension of disbelief to appreciate the game. The more your disbelief is suspended, the more enjoyable the game is. That's my opinion.

That's why games where the GUI is perceived to get in the way of the game fails. That's why no one would be bothered to run around in a naked room shooting at non-coloured blods that land on your head. You have to believe in the game to enjoy it, and that's where story comes in.

The story suspends disbelief. And I would say that in comparison to coding, that suspension of disbelief is magnitudes more difficult to achieve than mere lines of code.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 06:23 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 06:24
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Well, when I start a game, I get it done so I guess the answer is yes for me. I enjoy looking back on the stuff I've made (Duncan's Adventure, The Old Remedy, Dumbo, Spiderman 2D, Timeship) - and I enjoy learning new stuff and making bigger projects all the time.

Dumbo and Cool is really going to be my BIG project; I have so many ideas, and I haven't even begun to add them in yet

I haven't put anything to paper yet, but I'm hoping to give it a good storyline with some sad scenes for Dumbo's friends dying, a love interest perhaps and quite a bit of violence (not excessive).

Drew Camerons free games - http://www.drewsgames.com/
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Dave J
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 08:21
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If I shouldn't be, then it'd probably be a wise idea to transfer out of the Uni course I'm currently doing...


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 09:42 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 09:43
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I also disagree that a story is important. The best example I have for that is Painkiller. Arguably one of the best FPSs ever and it's just random levels and constant non-stop carnage.

I agree with the 'suspension of disbelief' though, but people will generally overlook weaker elements if you have a good underlying game. I think the emmersive nature of a game comes from the whole package -gameplay and media. You can lack a few elements and still have a good game, but there are certain elements that really need to work.

If you're making an FPS, you need good character animation. I think the models can be ropey, but they need to move right. If you're making a car sim along realistic lines (e.g. rally, F1, touring car, Nascar) you need realistic physics, but the tracks and models can be ropey. If you're making an RPG you need that storyline and you need emmersive characters etc. levels and models don't have to look great.

Sometimes I question if I can make a decent game, but that's purely because of the magnitude of a good game. I can code, I can model, I can animate, I can texture, I can make levels, I can write stories, I can compose music and generate sound effects. I can't realistically expect myself to do them all though - at least, not to a high standard, and generally I get bored because of the monotiny involved in some of the processes.

I'd say you can make a game. You are cut out for it. You just need to choose a game that suits your skills or find other people to fill in the gaps that you dont think you fill yourself.

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MicroMan
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 20:50
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@Fallout

Quote: "find other people to fill in the gaps that you dont think you fill yourself."


Haha, but that's another problem, I guess. I'm too much of a dictator when it comes to working with other people. I want the people I work with to follow my lead, to work well, to deliver on time, and I want people to work on the game exclusively, and so on and so on.

I think one of the "newbie faults" is to entangle oneself in groups that tend to fall apart with the first exam that comes along. The exam tears the group dynamics apart, and the members drift off into lala-land.

Or perhaps I should chain people to their computers, feed them gruel and coca cola...

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 21:51
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I've found the best approach is to do everything yourself. But you have to aim low. At the moment I'm making a BF1942 style flight sim and I'm taking it one step at a time. At the moment I'm making the first map, then I'll work on the plane physics and collision flying around the map and then the weapons, then the AI etc. At the end, I'll try and work on the emmersive aspects you mentioned and throw in a story and some multiplayer.

I dont expect to finish it as I always get bored, but the challenge is to get as far as possible before I pack it in. My new approach is to make the media first, as I find the main thing that dents my enthusiasm is chopping from coding to media, backwards and forwards. If I model and texture until I have enough to put together a completely working first level, I should be able to jump into the code and stick at it long enough to get the game playable.

It's all hit and miss though sometimes.

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MikeS
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:20
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I always find most of my game projects fail because I'm too harsh on myself while working on them. The funny thing being that the only games I've ever completed are the ones I've made for competitions, for I've forced myself to complete them despite crappy media or small issues.

Being a student though, I find it hard to find time to even program a few lines a day. Best thing you can do is stick with it if you really love games. GameDev isn't for everyone to go into a career, but I do encourage anyone to try to make a game. The more good games being made, the better I say.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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flibX0r
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:27
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Quote: " I think yes. I love it, although I may not be a brilliant coder, I believe I can further myself to success"


ditto


A baby seal walks into a club...
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Van B
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 00:01
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I think a lot of game projects fail because they just aren't started right, a game can very quickly become unweildy and just gets too cumbersome to work on. When it gets to that stage you really have to force yourself to work on it, and that's not a good thing. My approach is to try and make an engine for it, rather than hard coding everything I prefer to free up aspects of it to allow easier development. For example, I usually make the level editor first, and concentrate on getting the engine running after the file format it solid and I can make a decent test map. With a solid level engine you can build your game around it but more importantly your game idea can change quite a lot without you having wasted any time.

Game coding is by no means simple, it's an entirely different approach than application coding, but both skills are needed because level editors don't write themselves. I'm probably more fortunate than most because I program databases for a living, so I can apply that knowledge to my DB code - that's helped a great deal with VanMesh, for example indexing data so it's much faster to access. A good example might be a C&C style RTS, there's tons of data to manage in a game like that and the performance will reflect how well the data is managed. Unit handling for instance, because in an RTS your never really sure what models you'll need - so a clever unit creation and re-using system is vital, ideally you'd want a function that could simply create a unit of your choice without fail, and that sort of system is not easy to invent without some prior knowledge.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 06:53
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Anything can be accomplished through planning.

You need the right idea at the right time with the right people with the right work ethic.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 07:56
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Unlike many other branches of software development, game programming is more of an art than a science.

That is what makes it both interesting and more difficulty.

From a hobbyist developer's perspective, I think it would be a good idea to adopt the 'Monkey Ball Principle'. ie. Design a game which is in essence fairly simple but has enough little tweaks and twists to make it enduring.


BlueGUI Windows Plugin
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Three Score
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 10:17
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i am probably one of the few people who would be good for makign games but dont like games or makign them and is idealess when it comes to gamnes
i should probably go out of dbpro and start learnign c++ but it just takes so long
the closest thign to a game i have made was a 120 line snowboarding game where u dodge big green blobs called trees and it was trully neevr finished


i like for low stuff to be doen for me such as file commands simplified to a few commands and images able to be loaded with 1 command and nothign complicated but i like to make higher stuff such as guis by myself and have even got a custom messagebox made in dbpro(it just creates an old dos looking msgbox in the dbpro window but still) and i am very good at creating my own formats i am extremely good at file io but dont know how to apply it


and btw
u shouldnt think of a program as a lto of little details think of it as a few big chunks like an example
instead of thinking of a paitn program as
how will i mkae the canvas, how will i make the brush,what about plugins,hwo will i save it

simplify it to sections
how will i "paint"
how will it save and open and convert(ie gif to jpg)
the gui

and everythign will fill itself in therefor decreasing the amount of bugs

my avatar is working for the first time since free-space went down
http://hck83.tophernet.net (things are startign to look up)
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TravisP
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 11:07
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If you put your mind to it, you can do it... unless your mentally handicapped

Note: The above I didn't say, your just crazy.

Not a ripoff of The Twilight Zone
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Phaelax
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 12:21
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I too often abandon projects, and rarely follow through to the end of development. I get bored easily.

"eureka" - Archimedes
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Three Score
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 12:45
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take a break from programming for a week or 2 and then see if u are still bored

my avatar is working for the first time since free-space went down
http://hck83.tophernet.net (things are startign to look up)
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 23:06
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@Shadows of Emptiness: You should first learn to spell correctly before even thinking of tackling game development...

-Progress chart
3d engine: 46% physics: 67% AI: 89% Sanity: -51%
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Peter H
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 23:36 Edited at: 31st Jan 2005 23:36
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yeah the only games i've completed were for competitions....

but that's because the computer crashed before i finished my first game

and after that i've been working on one comp after another (untill now, finally a break!)

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 02:35
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No. I shouldn't be making games. I keep getting into too much detail and start making things too complicated in the interest of making a fun game After a *long* time, I think maybe I'm ready... Though I have to keep beating myself on the head with a trout to convince myself not to make multiple levels etc. :`(

Basicly, I can't force myself to make a game like, say, NobWorld (search the showcase forum) It's a awesome game, but I can't make myself write somthing like it, tho' I've tried. I keep getting ahead of myself.

I daresay I'm over that, now--my current project is a on-rails non-stop gothic horror game with NO STORYLINE!!! (actual quote from my design document follows):
Quote: "A bunch of hellspawn decided to get together to kill you. You have to stop them. The end"


Die die die storyline monsters!

"
"Timesoft: Your wife is death. HOW?!! No idea. But it is murder! REVENGE!"
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Peter H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 02:36 Edited at: 1st Feb 2005 02:37
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Quote: "actual quote from my design document follows"

i'm too lazy to make a design document on small games without story lines

but yeah, i have that problem to...i want to put in so many details and levels when i'm only ready for 1 simple level

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Sol462
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 05:38
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literally anyone can write/make a game. getting it to work is the real trick.

coffee + monkeys + creativity = games
Operation Pineapple - Multiplayer FPS WIP
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DeHonCha
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 06:53
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i disagree that storylines are not so important - take Outcast (an old
rpg game) that lacked excellent graphics (though decent graphics were
available) or a great variety of levels/npcs but instead it made up
for all of that and scored 90% on PC Gamer.
Even halflife being an fps required a story to get the juices flowing
off the player onto his wallet and into the games stores

storylines though not very significant affect a fraction of the gaming
populus - although this is only a small fraction it is mainly this
fraction that end up being game gods (pro game creators). it's in their
blood and in their head.

i'm a perfect example of a storyline addict. if anyone remembers gk3
(gabriel Knight 3) they'll remember a well told - slightly elaborate
but generally well weaved storyline placed at a perfect setting and everything.
when i play that game and when i reminisence about it even now (after
having played it over 50 times) i can't help the 'happy goopy feeling'
i get - the ability to go from real town to real town in france - the
ability to unravel a unique mystery - oooooooouuuuuuuu!!!!!!

in my opinion a true gamer (that is, one that wants to make more games)
needs to take games more seriously that the average gamer. *looks at tv
- notices porky pig is on*. for example, deus ex (the first one) can
get a true gamer so engrossed with the storyline and the game as a whole
that he even dreams about it in his sleep. when playing this brilliant
game (which i think superseeds even halflife2), it's no longer just a
monitor and keyboard - the monitor's contents become your world.
turning left, right moving forward actually feels like your doing yourself.
bullets lurging out to embed themselves in your torso make the player
dodge to the left or right. and no - it's not the graphics i'm talking
about in this game (though it may seem so) - it's the storyline and, in
deus ex's case, how the storyline turns you from a law officer to a
criminal on the run and back to a law officer and makes every bit of
it along the way feel real.

a true gamer can also be a gaming nerd who usually refers to a particular game's aspect by it's in-game technical name or something close ("the nuclear reactor only detonates when in contact with t67 hydronium carbonate gas")

so - if gaming is in your blood - it isn't just a form of a career but your destiny to make games ... but that's just what i think

yours truly,
gameracious

For when they said I couldn't, I did...
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Osiris
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 12:27
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Coding Fodder
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 14:06
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Yes I should be coding Games. Why because it is fun. Sure I have only completed one or two trashy games but it is the doing that I like. Every time I give up on a project I come a little closer to actualy completing it the graphics are a little more the awesome, and I a bit the better coder.

I will heartily admit to being helpless as a modeler and a musician. Most of my ideas are nothing but coding fodder but that is the fun part anyway.

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 01:26
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You only need 3 people to make a decent game. A programmer, a modeller, and a level designer (depends). Alot of succesful indie games are made this way. Just a couple of close (and trusted) friends working together. Not the crap you see now where people are requesting 10 team members, 1 for every little thing (2d artist, 3d modeller, level designer, programmers, score composer, sound effects...urh..) while at the same time doing as little work as posible.

-Progress chart
3d engine: 46% physics: 67% AI: 89% Sanity: -51%
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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 06:52
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This thread reminds me of the time Radical Entertainment came to our artschool back in '99 and told us what kinds of programmers they hire. Basically they said you don't have to have any game-related programming experience. What is a game? It's an application. If you have experience coding any sort of application, then that's all they needed. That opened my eyes a bit more to the mystery of the game industry :p


--[GameBasic - Coming Soon]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou
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Opus
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 21:48
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Were I interested in coding for a living, or even as an income supplement, then the answer would be no; as in no, I should not be making games--or attempting to. I have an overabundance of creativity and am so many types of artist that sometimes I lose count. I am also, however, frequently stumped and puzzled by the simplest aspects of coding, and so I have to repeatedly ram my head into the wall of comprehension before I vaguely grasp a concept that others seem to absorb and comprehend on the fly.

That's just the way the codeing crumbles, however, and as I am doing this for a hobby rather than for money, my talents as a programmer are really a non-issue. I'll get where I want to be eventually, even if I have to take about eight times longer to get there than most programmers. I am having fun and that's good enough for me.

Opus

Eternal student in search of knowledge. But will settle for the occasional epiphany.
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