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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Has anyone ever completed an online multiplayer game in DB/P? i can't find one.

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IBOL
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Posted: 10th Feb 2005 13:48
Has anyone completed an online multiplayer in DB/P? i can't find one.

i would really like to see what people have done with this functionality,
but i can't find any real evidence of it.
plenty of people ask questions about multiplayer,
and some people even offer advice.
but where are the games?

i NEED multi-player for my next project, so i'm going to begin
studying it. now looking for working examples.

and for anyone who's interested, i need to work out
(conceptually) how to play a turn-based strategy game
with multiplayer.
i would like to be able to offer PBEM and simultaneous-turn games,
but don't really know how to approach it.

thanks,
bob

The admiral
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Posted: 10th Feb 2005 13:57
Well there are some bugs but they are being fixed in the next dbpro patch. Besides that there are some games out there and more importantly a whole bunch in development mine included I know it can be made to work.

[href]www.vapourhost.com/~flyer[/href]
Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 00:49
If its just a case of a few bugs, DirectPlay sucks. Its slow, takes ages to connect(takes me 10 seconds roughly), and is hated by most firewalls. An alternative would be Exeat's winsock plugin, or my easy to use multiplayer plugin, located here: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5

Multiplayer DLL on its way! Easy to use DLL for client/server multiplayer games.

CR: Because your mad
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 01:35
DirectPlay 8 is slow anyway...

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IBOL
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 02:19
benjamin,
i just read over your thread there, and it looks promising.
when i try to get this together, i will try yours.

still waiting for someone to come on here and brag about their
finished multiplayer game...

thanks,
bob

heartbone
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 07:40
OK IBOL, I waited for someone else to mention my program.

Go here and download the guest version. I'm blacking at y a h o o dotcom so we can coordinate the connection over the Y!messenger or ICQ. I'm on dialup and the program works fine.

There is nothing wrong with DBP multiplayer or DX8/DirectPlay, it's just that one must be more than a competent programmer to succeed in multiplayer. This sim is only two players, and it took me eight months to perfect it.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 08:51 Edited at: 11th Feb 2005 08:53
Ok, so prove that more than 2 players can connect to a game, and be able to see eachother. Creating a 2 player game using DBPro's net commands isn't exactly much of a challenge, its when you want more than a 2 player game that it gets impossible. With the current state of DBPro it is known that it is completely impossible for a game containing 3 more or players. Hopefully a patch will fix this, though I don't think anything can fix the 10 second time it takes to even HOST using them. Using DirectPlay IMO just isn't very practical.

Multiplayer DLL on its way! Easy to use DLL for client/server multiplayer games.

CR: Because your mad
The admiral
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 11:37
He is on dial up so the router issues wont affect him and really thats the only thing from preventing multiplayer over the net.

[href]www.vapourhost.com/~flyer[/href]
Suicidal Sledder
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 14:08
Try ripping the code from Crazy CARnage

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 14:32
Quote: "Creating a 2 player game using DBPro's net commands isn't exactly much of a challenge,"

Such wisdom. So where is your work, Benjamin?

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 21:57
Quote: "him and really thats the only thing from preventing multiplayer over the net."

Unfortunatly not.

Quote: "Such wisdom. So where is your work, Benjamin?"

You really make me laugh you do . I'll upload a demo later.

Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
heartbone
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 00:43
Sure Benjamin, sure. But the topic is: Has anyone ever completed an online multiplayer game in DB/P?

Demos are a dime a dozen. I assume you are going to be using your Multisync. I'm very interested in your application and results. I just hope that your demo is an actual game. Good luck.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
heartbone
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 00:57
I believe Star Wraith was the first released DarkBASIC (Classic) multiplayer game. Quoting from the game documentation: "Each player in the game can target every other player making a game of 4 or more players a very intense combat situation."

My single player TWO FLAGS is a natural platform for a 2-5 MultiJoy and multiplayer adaptation.

Patience is a virtue.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 01:14 Edited at: 12th Feb 2005 01:18
Quote: "My single player TWO FLAGS is a natural platform for a 2-5 MultiJoy and multiplayer adaptation."

And have you managed to get more than two people connected on that game of yours?

Quote: "Demos are a dime a dozen. "

Indeed, but the demo had most of the functionality netwise that the full version would have had, so that sort of rules out a difference between a demo and full game in terms of net stuff.

Ah well, seeing as what I was going to show you was a demo I did months ago, I won't bother uploading it seeing as this is about full games, not demos.

Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
IBOL
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 04:54
guys,
calm down.

benjamin,
i am interested in what you've done.
though it's probably most important
if i could see your multiplayer code,
and besides, i need to come to understand
the nature of multiplayer before i
try to tackle it.

perhaps what we (DB community) need is a
" multi-player testers society "
a small group of people who agree to test
online multiplayer games for people,
and arrange on-line times together,
so we can all learn what works.

but i am just doing research on this
right now, and not ready to dive into it.

thanks all,
bob


i can't even find many demos...

Jimmy
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 04:58
Quote: "i can't even find many demos..."


That's because people think they've got multiplayer down, it's working with them and their buddy. Then 2 more people join and their computer explodes. Then they hang themselves.

That's why there are no demos.


I am Snappy, the little crocodile
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 06:23 Edited at: 12th Feb 2005 06:26
Quote: "though it's probably most important
if i could see your multiplayer code,"

Well, the thing is, even in the smallest project there is a fair amount of code to look through to see the multiplayer stuff . I'll try and explain how its done..



First you need to start the connection, as either
the host or the client. Seeing as without the host no one can play,
we choose to host. We set the net connection to the first
setting (TCP/IP) and enter our local IP. Remember that using
a loopback address most likely won't work.



Now we need to create the game (we are hosting, so we
create the game). The game name isnt particularly important.



The first parameter is the game name, the second is the player
name, and the third is the maximum amount of players you want
in the game.

Afterwards we must check to see if connecting worked, so we
use a function built into dbpro to see if the net game exists:



After we have successfully started the game, others can connect
to the game.

During the game we'll want to see if someone has connected, so we
can either use PERFORM CHECKLIST FOR NET PLAYERS OR we can
call a different function, NET PLAYER CREATED():



If there is a new player added, the function will return its local
ID, else it returns 0. We could do this a different way, by storing
the amount of players in a global variable and comparing it with
the checklist quantity each loop, like so:



Now, sending messages is quite an easy process depending on what
kind of data you want to send. If you want to send object positions,
then you'll need to use a memblock, like so:



The first parameter of SEND NET MESSAGE MEMBLOCK is the player
number, but if 0 will send to all players but the sender.
You can optionaly specify a guarentee packet flag, which ensures
the message will get to the player(s). Remember that when sending
messages, only send the amount per second that you can, otherwise
somewhere a buffer will overflow, causing unimaginable lag. Because
I am on dialup I send 2 messages per second, which works fine for
me. Also, rather than sending a message based on how many frames
have passed, its best to use TIMER() to make sure you send messages
at precise time so that in-game lag won't affect message sending.

Receiving messages is more or less easy if you know what your
doing. Now, you can use NET MESSAGE EXIST() to see if there
is a new message in the queue, but I don't. I'm not sure if
checking or not affects program speed or error oppitunities(sp?)
however. First I use GET NET MESSAGE which brings the oldest
message and puts it as the current message, then we check
the type of the message. If it is a type we can do something with,
then we do as we wish with the message then carry on with the
rest of the program. If the message doesn't exist then the type
will be returned as 0, so as far as I know, if you're carefull
you shouldn't run into any problems. Here is an example:



So thats a basic outline for creating a multiplayer enabled game.
Doing the client code is very similar, but you use JOIN NET GAME
rather than HOST NET GAME, and depending on how you handle data
you make other changes accordingly.

There are more complex things that you encounter in a 3+ way p2p
game, such as making sure data gets sent to the right players,
but it isn't very difficult to figure out. Tell me if I missed
anything or made a mistake.


Now thats a long post isn't it

Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
heartbone
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 15:52
Quote: "And have you managed to get more than two people connected on that game of yours?"
Nope. Haven't tried, but I'm confident that once I do, DarkBASIC will work as promised.

Understanding the mechanics of data transmission, versus designing and completing a non-trivial multiplayer game are vastly different.

With statements like "
Quote: "With the current state of DBPro it is known that it is completely impossible for a game containing 3 more or players."
", you are pushing your project and that's understandable. However your assertion that DarkBASIC can not handle more than 2 players in multiplayer seems to be REFUTED by the existance of Star Wraith. Is this not correct?

I maintain that DarkBASIC can handle multiplayer fine. The dearth of multiplayer games is a testament to other factors.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 22:33 Edited at: 12th Feb 2005 22:44
Er, you contradicted yourself there. You mentioned DBC. This discussion is about DBPro.

Quote: "Haven't tried, but I'm confident that once I do, DarkBASIC will work as promised."

So you have no clue at all what your doing, and you are questioning someone who has tried a lot to get multiplayer working properly on the latest patch?

Quote: "you are pushing your project and that's understandable. However your assertion that DarkBASIC can not handle more than 2 players in multiplayer seems to be REFUTED by the existance of Star Wraith. Is this not correct?"

So the fact that even the developers know they have broken the commands in the latest patch(or one of the latest patches), you still beleive you can make it work? Oh right well okay, thats realistic. You should look around the forums and you'll see what I mean.

If the multiplayer commands worked before, then thats all very dandy and all, but we are talking about DBPro and its latest patch, not DBC with enhancements. I never said the multiplayer functions in DBCe didn't work, stop twisting my words.

EDIT: Found this: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=42627&b=15. Notice its a confirmed bug thread. Yes, confirmed.



Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Feb 2005 22:58
Yes, but only because DirectPlay is slow.

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
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Benjamin
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Posted: 13th Feb 2005 00:05
What?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 13th Feb 2005 01:56
?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 13th Feb 2005 03:03
Oh, do you mean it was only confirmed because DirectPlay is slow? O.o because that would be kinda wierd..

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Posted: 13th Feb 2005 07:04
Indeed it would, but thats life...

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IBOL
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Posted: 14th Feb 2005 11:52
benjamin,

thanks for your long and fairly detailed explanation.
it seemed to me that most of those commands were
native to dbp...is that so? if not which are yours?
the more i learn, the more i need to learn...

i wish that someone would make a game that just used
ultra-simple models (cubes) that was a four-player
online shoot'em'up.
it would be a great accomplishment.

perhaps it will be me,
but i have too many active projects right now.

thanks all,
bob

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Feb 2005 21:41
Quote: "it seemed to me that most of those commands were
native to dbp...is that so? if not which are yours?"

They all are.

Quote: "i wish that someone would make a game that just used
ultra-simple models (cubes) that was a four-player
online shoot'em'up."

I have tried, and failed

Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
heartbone
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Posted: 15th Feb 2005 00:52
Quote: "If the multiplayer commands worked before, then thats all very dandy and all, but we are talking about DBPro and its latest patch, not DBC with enhancements. I never said the multiplayer functions in DBCe didn't work, stop twisting my words."

1) I never twisted your words.
2) We were discussing comlpleted multiplayer games in DBP, which EasyTankCOMMBAT is one. Also I think that StarWraith has been converted to pro.
3) Multiplayer worked in DBC and it works better in DBP. Despite your statements and wishes to the contary.
4) I stopped "upgrading" my DBP after patch 4.1 since I bought and paid for a DX8 development system. I can't speak to the current state of the compiler except to say that I don't tolerate incomplete work very well. If you are convinced that the multiplayer in patch 5 is broken, try patch 4.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Feb 2005 01:07 Edited at: 15th Feb 2005 01:10
Quote: "2) We were discussing comlpleted multiplayer games in DBP, which EasyTankCOMMBAT is one. Also I think that StarWraith has been converted to pro."

You think? Thats great that you think that, also when you find out if it HAS been converted, please try and get a 4 way multiplayer session going with it .

Quote: "3) Multiplayer worked in DBC and it works better in DBP. Despite your statements and wishes to the contary."

And that is why everyone posts complaining about DBP's net commands not working..I finally understand. You have never TRIED to get a 3+ way multiplayer game going, on top of the fact you think no one else can get a 2 way multiplayer game working.. hmmm yeah. Its always annoying when someone tries to argue about something they know nothing about.

..wait a minute, who told you they work better in DBP? No one? Oh well I sort of gathered that. You have no proof that they work better in DBP, and you argue that they work and are amazing and all this, when you haven't given them proper testing to find the flaws in them.

Sorry if this post offends you, its just that you are making blind assumptions.

EDIT: I think you have a serious problem with me. You seem to think I want the DBP net commands to not work or something? Please explain 'why' you think this.

Multisync v0.1 ready! - Easy to use muliplayer plugin for DarkBASIC Professional - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47654&b=5
heartbone
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 21:40
I am not offended. But it does seem like you are trying to make this personal. You should have written thanks heartbone for the information, instead you write a bunch of assumptions about me.

Your last question about me having a "serious problem" with you does indicate a bit of insecurity, n'est pas?

Anyhow to correct but one of your confused points, when developing Easy Tank (See it halfway down this page http://www.nonags.com/nonags/gmact.html ) a DarkBASIC classic program, I discovered that the DX7 implementation of Direct Play was way short of adequate performance. So I had to convert the project to Pro to implement multiplayer.

I hope that arrogantly horrible quote of yours Benjamin: "
Quote: "..wait a minute, who told you they work better in DBP? No one? Oh well I sort of gathered that. You have no proof that they work better in DBP, and you argue that they work and are amazing and all this, when you haven't given them proper testing to find the flaws in them."
" is not any indidcator of your logic.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
waffle
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 23:22
I have done several online games with DBPro ....
check my website.

DuelPro is LeeBamber's "Monster Hunt" modified to support
9 players online.

I also have a chess game (you can't play against the computer)
but it shows how to do a turn based game.


just don't try to resell them Been through that once already.
They are there to learn from. Oh, press the web link.
The other games are in Purebasic.
Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 23:30 Edited at: 17th Feb 2005 23:31
Quote: " instead you write a bunch of assumptions about me."

Yeah, when you said you had never tried a 3+ player online game, I actually beleived you and assumed you haden't tried a 3+ player online game. Sorry .

Quote: "Your last question about me having a "serious problem" with you does indicate a bit of insecurity, n'est pas?"


Maybe I'm forgetting how to read plain english then ->

Quote: " Despite your statements and wishes to the contary."


I'm not sure exactly what that comment meant, maybe I misunderstood it. Anyway, we finally have some proper input to IBOL's question, we can stop 'chatting' now. . Though don't think that makes me like you..


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
heartbone
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 00:27 Edited at: 18th Feb 2005 00:34
Benjamin fires his last volley.
Quote: ". Anyway, we finally have some proper input to IBOL's question, we can stop 'chatting' now. . Though don't think that makes me like you.."

Finally?

Well at least you finally got the message, DBP multiplayer works.

I'll offer this final tip. Develop and tune your apps on a LAN. Then test it on the internet. If it works on the net fine, you are good. If not then you'd need to optimize a special version of it for that environment. There is a good chance that complex 3 or more multiplayer games need to be on a LAN for a robust playing experience.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 01:06
Oh god please no.

Quote: "Well at least you finally got the message, DBP multiplayer works"

You were trying to give me the message that it works, yet you had only partially tested it and didn't know exactly if it completely worked . Well, I thought at the moment it wasn't working with any more than two players, but according to Waffle it does, so, I beleive it. The reason I didn't believe you is because you said you hadn't tried it.


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Three Score
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 11:36
dbp multiplayer sucks and is for people too lazy to try to find a winsock plugin or make there own(or too poor to buy one;i dont buy things on inet cause my parents wont let me)

if u look at any good multiplayer u will see it is not based on crappy directplay
directplay was made for noobs not pros.(period)

my avatar is working for the first time since free-space went down
http://hck83.tophernet.net (things are startign to look up)
Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 19:41
Hey, I see heartbone coming! Run shawdows, run!


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 22:03
Anyone had a look at EZ_Serv, and the tutorials for it in Program announcements?

Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 22:16
If it only works as a server program then I don't think its exactly useful on its own..I mean, you need a way to get client connections going.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 22:52
yeah, which I provide for you in the tutorials for DBP - uses Exeats winsock Plugin for dbp.

please people: READ!

Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 22:57
Rofl.


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waffle
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 06:40 Edited at: 20th Feb 2005 06:51
Although DPro online stuff is less than ideal ...
no lobby support
no matching service
It is plenty good enough for most tasks. Behind the scenes,
DBPro uses UDP which is fast. TCP is slower, but more
reliable. DBPro also offers guaranteed packet delivery for
those times you need it ... online chat for example.

Also, many games are played via directplay ... read the box
I sorta understand the lack of lobby support, but that can be
done via the DarkSDK (C++) and would be beyond the skill set of
most users and also beyond the small pockets of hobbyests
as you need a special server for that. The lack of a matchmaker
(even blitz has had one for a few years) should be addressed.
I have been using IRC for matchmaking, and that's ok for now.
I have tried doing my own using FTP with my website with only
slight usefullness.

I also think a mod should lock this thread before it becomes a flame war... just my opinion

warning:
If using a router, active firewall, software firewall, WinXP,
expect to have lots of issues. That just comes with the teritory.
Working directly via WinSockets can help bypass some issues because
you have more direct control over how connections fail. With directplay, the OS handles the failures and that causes slowness
during the connection process. But, again, that goes with the job.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 06:46
lock? a flame war? why?

ionstream
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 07:00
FLAMED!

Lobby support? You have to program that yourself. Basically, you would connect to a main server, get a .txt file of all the active servers, and ping them all. And UDP is too unsecure, so screw it's speed .

Another problem is that you want to prevent client side fakes (hackers), so you would need a fairly advanced security system.

Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 07:38
Quote: "DBPro uses UDP which is fast."

True, but the way DBP stores data in messages really wastes space. I have found that I can send packets faster using TCP with my plugin than UDP with DBP.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 09:09 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2005 01:36
Quote: "Lobby support? You have to program that yourself."


ezs is a lobby, you need not program that. soon it will zone the players as well.

Quote: "Another problem is that you want to prevent client side fakes (hackers), so you would need a fairly advanced security system"


ezs already provides Client Version Profiling which allows you to "test" the client with a piece of data, and if they dont send back the correct response its the BOOT! This test can be changed at will by the server op. Encryption would be the next level of protection.

Concerning UDP: Its lame. If it was so great it would be more prevalent, wouldnt it? tcp.

*edit* I take back the statement concerning udp, turns out its more widely used in multiplayer gaming than I knew about - live and learn I guess

Tapewormz
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Joined: 15th Sep 2002
Location: Winnipeg, Mantoba, Canada
Posted: 20th Feb 2005 09:49
This thread should be the nail in the MMORPG coffin that all the newcomers to Dark Basic always dream of creating.

Greenster
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 3rd Feb 2005
Location: US ©
Posted: 20th Feb 2005 10:27 Edited at: 20th Feb 2005 10:31
I have Tested and Implemented some small Multiplayer
stuff with DBP as Client and Perl as Server.I guess
I am a Hobbyest cause I write Thousands of Dollars
worth of Code with Zero Cent to my Name(LOL).The
Logic for Multiplayer is within the rashinal limits
of DBP.It just takes extreme Dedication and Unders-
tanding to do.

Even people who are Expierienced with DB and DBP are
gonna have Troubles.I have met people who have coded
in C for more than 10 Years and still have to go back
and make corrections in there Code.The Art of Software
Development never comes Second Nature.If you think
DB is a Toy Language you should maybe go look at some
Finished Games written in C++,Python,Java etc cause
they Have about the same Functionality.

You can take a Finished Game in DBP and Multiply it's
source lines by about 10 and you will Have almost the
Lines it takes to make the same Game in C++.

On the other Hand,I cant even use the Core Functions
without running into Engine Bug's,so I cant really
see How Moving Polygons over Packets is gonne be
reality anytime soon.

IBOL
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location: @IBOL17
Posted: 21st Feb 2005 09:43
absolutely incredible.
1 or 2 finished games using multiplayer.
tapewormz is dead on about the nail in the coffin.

this thread should not be locked,
it should be STICKIED so that every newcomer
can see it.

any person who has completed a multiplayer game
would have spoken up by now, just to brag / advertise

jrowe
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 12th Oct 2002
Location: Here
Posted: 21st Feb 2005 17:45 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 17:53
There used to be a pretty cool 3D shoot-'em-up made in DBCe called CCA or CCR or something (I think it was "Cyber Control Alpha" not sure though). It may have been dead glory who made it, again, I can't remember. I do remember it was winner of some competition though .

The characters looked like cool spot.


For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
zircher
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 27th Dec 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 01:06
Well, I haven't posted before because of the 'completed' part of the thread title. But, VirMin, my multi-player 3D chat/wargaming playing aid has had working net code for ages and can support 3 or more players over the internet using DBP's basic net commands. Besides chat is also has supported for shared events such as moving playing peices and the like. It's something that could be used for RPGs, boardgames, etc. Technology-wise, its blow for blow the same thing that Benjamin posted earlier. I basically send text tokens containing events such as chat data, moving units, rotating peices, rolling dice, etc.
--
TAZ

The current VirMin gallery:
http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gallery.htm

"Do you think it is wise to provoke him?" "It's what I do." -- Stargate SG-1
IBOL
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location: @IBOL17
Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 05:23 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2005 12:12
zircher,
you're alive!
i was wondering about you.
yeah, apparently 'completed' is too much to ask for.
thanks for speaking up though,
bob

PS:
how come the folder for this thread is now red?

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