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Geek Culture / Need your opinions before I try to make money from a DBpro game...

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 5th Mar 2005 18:23
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Hey all,

Any of you who are in your mid-twenties or older will possibly remember text adventure games from the 80's and prior... You know, the game your brother made on your IBM PCjr that inspired you to start programming... That one. Well, I'm spearheading a massive production consisting of a full team of artists and programmers to create an FPS-MMPOG using DarkBASIC Pro and tools from the Game Creators, but in my sparse free time I've been writing a text adventure game, based on a game that I made when I was a really tiny kid using the BASICA language. I was doing it for fun, until someone suggested to me after playing it that I should try and sell it. I laughed at my pal for a good ten minutes straight, then actually contemplated it: If I can sell a few thousand copies, each for $1-$3, I'd make a few thousand bucks off of it. There *is* a slim market for text games... after looking into it I found an online gladiator game that is entirely done in text, and people pay a monthly fee to play it! Then I went into Yahoo! chat rooms, and they too told me they'd pay to play it. But what do YOU think about it? Here are my options... please tell me what you think I should do:
(A) Keep the game to myself and use it to entertain party guests and whatnot
(B) Sell it for $1 to $3 on the net
(C) try to sell it, and if it doesn't sell, give it away as freeware
(D) give it away as freeware anyway because I don't have a hope in heck of making any moolah from it

Any input here would be greatly appreciated... well, useful input anyway

-Matt Rock

PS: In terms of the FPS MMPOG, and this might sound arrogant but I don't mean it to sound that way:
(A) Don't ask what it's about, please... it's a secret and we want to keep it that way
(B) We currently aren't looking for any help in creating it, unless you live in the Binghamton, NY area, which you probably don't
(C) If I had a nickel for everyone who wanted to beta test the game, I'd be able to buy Bill Gates on the black market and higher a trainer to make him do dolphin tricks in a kiddie pool. In other words, our team is full, including the testing department, and we don't need anyone else
(I know that all sounded irrelevant but these are things I'm constantly asked about, so I figured I'd dodge them altogether. Phew! Now THAT was a long post!)

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Foxy
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Posted: 5th Mar 2005 20:15
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IMO text games aren't really what you'd be able to sell thousands of copies of. Compared to the rest of the market they are just about completely obsolete, the quality of the graphics and and gameplay engulfs those simple text adventures. The majority of the market is probably teenage guys looking for blood, super high quality graphics and endless hours of non-stop action. Unless you have a very-well established company with lots of people visiting your site each month and making several sales a day I doubt it's possible.

On the other hand, DBPro is more of a hobbiest language and can't really handle the creation of any massively multiplayer online games and if I remember rightly, it has a connection limit of 256 players. If you have a fully fledged team, you'll probably be better off taking a few months extra time to learn c/c++ because it'll turn out better in the long run, much better indeed.

Either way, good luck for the future.

P.S. Don't bother asking about things like these in yahoo chat rooms or any for that matter as they are usually full of crap.

P.P.S. Sorry if I sound a bit offensive, I'm just speaking my mind on the subject.

Gaming resources.

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Neofish
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Posted: 5th Mar 2005 21:16
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D

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 00:33 Edited at: 6th Mar 2005 00:42
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Quote: "If you have a fully fledged team, you'll probably be better off taking a few months extra time to learn c/c++ because it'll turn out better in the long run, much better indeed."


Erm, a couple of months to learn C++?, yeah right - switching to C++ is a project killer, WTF do you think happend to the Equilibrium team?, those demo's were pretty much the last thing they released before switching - about 3 years ago if not more.

The most widely played PC game is solitaire, so I don't see why there's no market for more subdued and intelligent gameplay. These types of game are what started the MMORPG craze, there's plenty people out there who like the interaction aspects and probably miss that type of game. Text adventures have kinda had their day - but it's a different kettle of fish when your playing with real people, like Legend of the Green Dragon for instance, a more in-depth game like that would be great fun.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
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Ian T
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 01:47
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'Switching to C++' is a very misleading phrase. It's more like 'switching to C++, DirectX, and assorted pieces of expensive middleware to replace what DarkBASIC natively supports that will take a small team over a year to get a solid hang of'.

I personally would not buy a text adventure. There's a niche market, but I wouldn't expect more than two hundred sales.

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
-Lee Bamber
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 03:53
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Like just about any genre you care to think of, there's an audience in waiting. A well produced text adventure engine/story would certainly find an audience.

If you intend upon selling it, then do your home work first. Research, analyze, identify and survey your market. The better you know your potential customer/competitors (which are bound to be more than you think, from other producers, through like those text advantage emulators for PDA's now). The better you can make a clearer decision about what you make and who you aim it. More importantly, it'll paint a better picture of your products commercial viability.

Quote: "(B) Sell it for $1 to $3 on the net"


Way to cheap!, there's no point is selling it, if your not going to return a profit. Think about your potential customers here, there not going to be teenagers or bellow, most are going to be older people. Lets say in between 30 & 50 (safe assumption). So impulse purchase of $10 to $20 is not out of the question. Of course the price depends a lot on the presentation.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next Generation Basic (Release V1.05 Out Now)
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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 06:34
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If you have an unknown market, I would suggest a freeware/shareware game with a damn good reason to upgrade. Like, for example, limiting levels and features. Just make sure the extra levels and features are irresistable.

Pricewise, would you rather sell 10,000 copies at £1, or 1,000 copies at £10? I know which would return more profit and lighten your workload!

BatVink
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 06:51
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Thanks for responding

I think I miss-said something about the text game... it's not multiplayer. My team is making a 3D first person shooter MMPOG... I'm creating the text adventure in my spare time. In terms of multiplayer, in took a lot of fiddling (and two of our team mates are IT people, something I know little about), but we've figured out a way to host as many players online as we can get to buy it. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but it's possible. That game, which is slated for an august '05 release (we hope!), will sell for $49.99 US, like most other games of its nature. But here's a little bit of news that I probably shouldn't tell you about, but will anyway (shh, this is a "trade secret" or something)... we aren't going to charge for online play. To my knowledge, that makes it the first non- pay-to-play MMPOG on the market. The secret? It involves peer to peer networking, but that's all I can tell you because I don't know diddly squat about IT stuff
A little off topic, but I have to say bravo to the DBPro folks... when I first saw DBPro, I thought to myself "ugh, this game is going to look bad..." but we've been able to make a modern-quality high end FPS MMPOG using this software. I was super skeptical at first, but I have to admit... I was wrong and underestimated DBPro's ability! Anyway...
Isn't 10k copies @ $1 the same as 1k copies at $10? I think you had a typo in there I think I'll sell it at $3/ unit, and if it doesn't sell, I'll just drop the price to $2, then $1, then shareware, then freeware... um, is there a lower echelon than that? We'll see how it works out, hehe.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Foxy
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 08:27
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I said about the C++ thing because C++ is (I've found) a faster language although you are right it would take a reasonable amount of time to learn the right stuff in c++ to make a 3D game. If there is a full team devoted to the game, I'd reckon that they would be able to acquire the right skills in about 6 months (probably not true, just a educated guess) and then learn along the way. But seeing Matt is aiming for August this year, maybe you would be better off using DBPro.

Aside from that, I better shut-up.

Gaming resources.

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 09:07
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f you can do all that , I will by your mmofps, and all your text stuff

if a man has a baby then something IS wrong.
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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 09:12
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There are tons of free-to-play-online MMOGs out there. Counter-Strike, StarCraft, (Korean tank game whose name escapes me), Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, etc. etc.


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TravisP
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 09:26 Edited at: 6th Mar 2005 09:27
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Quote: "the first non- pay-to-play MMPOG on the market"

Is that so?
http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html
Quote: "Will there be a monthly fee for Guild Wars?

No, there will not be a monthly subscription fee of any kind, anywhere in the world."

That was a MMORPG.

Note: The above I didn't say, your just crazy.

Not a ripoff of The Twilight Zone
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MikeS
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 10:01
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Quote: "Isn't 10k copies @ $1 the same as 1k copies at $10? "


Not exactly. Consider having to have customer support for 10k
users, plus the extra costs in bandwith from downloading, versus only 1k people to support and less bandwith to be paid for(This would make a substancial difference if you were to sell with a box+cd, etc.).

Essentially the same, but indirectly there are other factors to consider.

Either way, I fully support selling of DBP games, so long as it's sellable.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 10:06
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This text-adventure will be made with DBP? I guess you can advertise that it's the very first text adventure that requires DirectX 9.0c


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Neofish
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 10:29 Edited at: 6th Mar 2005 10:30
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Not if he uses an older DBP version



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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 10:32
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Quote: "There are tons of free-to-play-online MMOGs out there. Counter-Strike, StarCraft, (Korean tank game whose name escapes me), Quake 3, Unreal Tournament 2004, etc. etc."


Depending on your own personal defintion of Massively Multiplayer Online Games.

I do not have any problem paying for a game, provided it keeps me interested enough to want to keep playing it.

While I do enjoy playing Counter-Strike, I will only play it provided I know I will be playing with friends. Counter-Strike Source looks like a good update to the game, however the quality of Players and Administrators puts me off willing to spend $40 for it.

Finding good friendly Servers for games is much harder than than actually finding good games.

For older MMORPGs like Ultima - Online there are many free servers now.

System: Windows XP CPU: AMD Athlon 2600+ RAM: 512MB Video: GeForce FX 5200 Audio: C-Media 9739 DirectX: Version 9.0c
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 11:31
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Most of those games aren't really what I was thinking of when I said MMPOG... I mean, millions of players simultaneously, not just 16/ 32/ 64/ 128/ 256 players in the same "room." I didn't realize there were so many free-to-play mmo's out there... suddenly I feel very, very humbled, hehe. Game Informer recently stated that MMPOG's are becoming more and more expensive. I feel that if a consumer pays $49.99 for a retail product, they shouldn't have to spend an additional $9.99 per month to access its primary method of play. Take for example EverQuest, Final Fantasy XI, and Knights of the Old Republic... those are, in my opinion, true MMPOG's. I feel like we'll be doing a favour to the gaming populace by making our title free-to-connect. But that's just me

-Matt Rock

PS.- This is why I have to avoid talking about the FPS-MMPOG... I end up talking about it, and bit by bit I'm going to catch myself revealing everything about it, lol. I'm worse than Peter Molyneux!

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 11:48
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But you *need* to charge per month, otherwise your funds will run dry and you'll be stuck paying the server bills month after month--- and for what? They pay $50 which is great in the beginning--- but that same player might use your server day after day for an entire year... pretty soon his $50 is nothing.

The kind of bandwidth required for a massive online game is tremendous. I would suggest giving away maybe 3 or 6 months for free, then have a pay system after that.


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TravisP
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 11:57
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Guild Wars is a true MMOG

Note: The above I didn't say, your just crazy.

Not a ripoff of The Twilight Zone
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Posted: 6th Mar 2005 13:57
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All of the comments aside, the biggest help to actually making money from a Dark Basic Professional title, would be to complete development.

Once you have it finished, then you can worry about what, and how to charge for it.

System: Windows XP CPU: AMD Athlon 2600+ RAM: 512MB Video: GeForce FX 5200 Audio: C-Media 9739 DirectX: Version 9.0c
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 07:31
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Hey all,
I would have replied to this sooner but I spent the last few days in Atlantic City (no, I didn't win anything ) Anyhoo...

I don't want to charge a monthly fee because I know how it feels to be broke and really want to play a mmpog. If we use a peer-to-peer network, we're sharing bandwidth between all of the client computers. The server merely acts as a "hub" (if you will) for all of the clients, and contains all of the principal data that the clients need to share. In a sense, the server is a client that is always on, so that if no one else is logged on at the time, we always have one ghost user in the online world. We'll also use the server to apply any environmental adjustments... say, a hurricane or a volcanic eruption. Most weather effects, like rain, snow, tornados, etc. are randomized within weather patterns based on real-world parameters... in other words, a tornado won't blow your house down out of the blue. The game has to create weather effects that are suitable for a tornado first. ANYWAY, lol, that's what our server is doing, and according to the IT's it won't use up too much bandwidth and it should keep our costs down.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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