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Geek Culture / 35 year old in need of career advice.

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Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 00:51
I have been in the RAF for the last 14 years and I am becoming a civilian in April 2006. I need to find a new career between now and then.

I could get cross-trained as a civilian in my current trade (Propulsion Technician) but, to be honest, I don't enjoy it anymore.

Programming is my passion and always has been. I just wish I had realised that before joining the RAF in 1991.

Anyway - the question: If I want a career as a programmer (and I do!) then what languages should I learn and what qualifications should I try to get?

I should point out that my current qualification in programming is a lowly grade C 'O level' attained in 1985 and the only language I currently know is DarkBASIC.

On the plus side, the RAF will give my £5000 towards 'resettlement training' and as much time off as I need over the next 12 months.

So, where is the money?

Thanks.

Van B
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 01:30
To be honest, it won't be easy for you to get started as a programmer at your age, most companies still opt for university graduates first (despite how that often turns out).

I think you might be most comfortable in a smaller company and using VB or even just VBA, concentrate on fast business solutions rather than becomming another coding drone. For instance your experience and age probably puts you in good stead to move into IT management, which could involve as much or as little programming as you like. IT managers make very nice money. I suppose it's a little like the over-used big fish analogy, big fish - little pool, little fish - big pool. Everyone knows it's better to be the guy with the net.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Aoneweb
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 03:45 Edited at: 19th Mar 2005 03:47
EDS is an IT resource company that hire tech's for most areas, and it could be a good place to start.
Programming in C++ is the way to go, Basic realy is not as popular in the software world.
http://www.eds.com/about/careers/

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 04:10
IT all the way, but I don't think they have EDS in the UK (when you say RAF I assume you mean Royal Air Force, maybe you're canadian though, hehe). Game companies tend to hire VC programmers as of late, and if you're interested in 3D modelling, I hear that it's the easiest way to get into the gaming industry, but that's hear-say. If your heart is set on programming, I would suggest you listen to Van and Aone and do IT. It's relatively easy to learn (I'm learning it now) and you won't need four years of college to be certifiable. If gaming is your true passion, you could make DB games on the side, and perhaps that would pay off in which case you could walk from the IT world and start your own business. That's my opinion

- Matt Rock

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billy the kid
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 04:58 Edited at: 19th Mar 2005 04:59
If you really want to become a programmer, go back to school. Like VanB said, they are looking for college graduates and/or people with a ton of programming experience. However there is an alternative route.

You could become a freelance programmer. I have a friend who used to be a carpenter and is now a freelance programmer. And started freelancing when he was a little younger than you and with basically no programming experience. But he spent a lot of time learning C/C++ and general programming techniques on his own while he still had his day job which was carpentry. And really he was extremely lucky. It is quite hard to become a successful freelancer. He just knew the right people that needed some code written for them. So my advice would be to go back to school.

Oh and if you are fluent in C/C++ and some database language like SQL then you should be all set.
Aoneweb
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 05:02
EDS is world wide, I worked for them at BP Amico in the UK.

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SageTech
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 06:50
learn C or C++, then the jobs will come to you, becouse you wont get a job with darkbasic

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David T
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 07:35
This is the first time I've seen somebody asking what they need to do to become a civilian. Usually it's "what do I need to do to join the RAF..."

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VR2
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 07:56
My advice would be to forget game programming right from the get-go as that is the most contested area, prone to the deathmarch at the drop of a hat, you'd likely need to start at the very bottom and besides, the wages are just lower than other "normal" programming jobs.

Keep it as a hobby by all means (so it stays fun) but look for something more stable to pay the bills, and where you can still use your coding skills.

What language(s) you learn is upto you but I would suggest tooling yourself to be able to creat web solutions as well as Windows applications & a mixture of both.

C# would be a bloody good bet (for ASP.NET web sites, web services, Win apps, smart client, well everything really - and that could include games with Managed DirectX).

Its fairly easy to start with but plenty of scope for you to grow into it as you gain experience as a coder. It can be easy or it can be hard, by that I mean when you start you can use it like VB and just "glue" everything together (object a fits into object b style), but when you get good you can harness more power like C++ with pointer arithmatic etc.

Also its only a hop and a skip and you know Java & Javascript too as they are very similar. Oh and Perl & PHP in a way.

However, right this minute - there is probably still more demand for VB6 or VBScript ASP programmers, so you COULD find that by learning VB6 you could clean up after all the exodus to .NET has finished - what I mean is that if all the coders moving from unmanaged to managed code now want .NET jobs - there will be a lot of lonely VB6 apps and ASP classic sites out there, looking for someone to look after and extend them. And its just possible you could command good money just because no one else wants to do it Y'know, kindof like the cobol programmers were in demand in the run up to 2K, where everyone ran off to program in more exciting higher level languages, all this old cobol code needed looking at because of the feared meltdown come new years eve.

Also get yourself some training with a leading database engine, like SQL Server, so you can be well rounded as a front-to-back "solution provider", then, if need be you could operate on your own.

If you can manage it - get a Microsoft certification MSCE or something like that, although it'll be tough to do that in the time you have - maybe you could start down that route and impress at the interview(s). Use your web skills to set yourself a site up and advertise yourself, show demos of your work etc. DO NOT use naff, off the shelf graphics - keep it business like. Spend the time to design something simple but tasteful, or get a friend to do the design work if that's too much.

Remember that good software developers are sought after, and just because you're not programming the next AAA game doesn't mean your work can't be totally absorbing and fulfilling, while still allowing you to grow and develop your skills.

So get yourself kitted up and you'll be golden!

I wish you luck but to be honest, if you're determined enough, make some good choices, you'll make it, despite your old age :=P (j/k)
Fallout
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 08:17
I'm currently contracting for EDS in the UK, so yes, they're definitely over here. They have several thousand employees in this country. Also, we prodominantly use VB.NET and ASP.NET, and I think EDS will move towards web-based applications for most of its bespoke software, and VB.NET/ASP.NET are cutting edge. Dark basic gives you a good start.

I don't think C++ is that widely used for rapid software development (most bespoke software). I think that's mainly used for long term software development and technical software. I'd say get trained up in some form of .NET architecture and maybe study for some Microsoft Certified Engineer style qualifications. I know the MS word is a swear word, but they're very good quals as far as your CV is concerned.

I forgot to mention, programming applications in the industry is very very boring. It's a world away from game development.

Jeku
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 11:15 Edited at: 19th Mar 2005 11:19
^^^ agreed.

Game development is, some would argue, more difficult than run-of-the-mill software dev. Times change, and you always have to stay ahead of the ball so to speak. The pay is also less. However, it is VERY cool to work for a real game company and hang out with other gamers/programmers/artists, etc. There is no greater feeling IMHO.

Software dev. is safe, though. The pay is usually higher than game dev, but you may find you aren't challenged enough. If you're at a time in your life where you have to support a wife and 5 kids, then you might want to take the safe software route. After all, you can always use DBP on the side.

If you work in the games industry be warned that you will not be able to make games on the side, unless you get special permission. I had to get special permission from EA to continue on WordTrix, but it took about 2 months and half a dozen emails. Plus you have to sign NDAs and if your game is remotely similar to any of your publishers games, you will be royally screwed.

EDIT:

Ooops, I forgot to add what to study for hehehe. Too excited I guess. The general consensus is that you need to know C++. A typical interview for a games company WILL involve a difficult C++ test to see how much you know. It won't involve 3D theory in most cases, but you need to know stuff like convert constructors, singleton patterns, and inheritance.

Good luck


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Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 17:30 Edited at: 19th Mar 2005 17:38
Thanks everyone

There a is a lot of useful info here and a lot of words that are completely meaningless to me - I have a lot to learn!

I have been in touch with 'Computeach International Ltd'. They provide training in various languages and also MCSE. Does anyone have any first hand experience with them? They are sending someone to see me on 28th March, so, I need to have a farily good idea what I want to do before then.

I have seen jobs available for analyst/programmers and they seem to command a higher wage. I assume from the title that they go into a company and decide what systems they need in place and what programs they need to run and then go out and make it happen - am I right?

If it isn't too much to ask - If anyone here is in the industry would you mind telling me what job title you have, what it entails, the qualifications you have and (if you are willing) your salary(!). I realise not many people are willing to divulge personal info but it would be a great help to me - you could always email me instead of posting here if that helps.

I know that last part is a lot to ask. So, I don't mind if you don't want to reveal info about yourself but any non-personal info is also a great help.

Thanks again.

Van B
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 20:51
Often the system analyst would be expected to program a solution if need be, despite the high quality of some off-the-shelf business and production control solutions they're damn expensive, basically a good programmers salary just to use the software. A lot of companies really need home-grown solutions that allow the programmers a much better job security.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Advancement Games
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 22:58
Option 1: You should probably go back to school to start learning C++ or Java for programming. They will probably (in school) also make you take a course with an assembly language. You can then apply to work for a company. At your age, this is very tough.

Option 2: Start yourself as an independent developer. Get your own website ready to sell games. Do some research on the matter. Then, self teach yourself C or C++. Make some games with those languages instead of DarkBASIC. After this, if you do not want to work for yourself, make a portfolio of all the games that you have made and what you have done in your company, and apply for a job with another company.

It is your choice. I am doing option 2.

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GothOtaku
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 03:29
The big languages to know right now are Java, XML, SQL, PHP, C++, VB, Matlab, and Delphi.

Java is the popular language right now for certain things but I'm not counting on it to last. Plus many college students are learning this so the market will probably be saturated.

SQL is necessary for database programmers and is in widespread use.

PHP is used for programming webcontent. ASP from Microsoft is it's main competititor but most companies use PHP since it's free and can be used on their servers which are usually Linux or BSD.

C++ is considered by some the language to end all languages. It's used to do almost everything but is pretty complex.

Visual Basic is used for programming quick GUI apps for Windows and is easy to learn and common.

Delphi is the same as VB except based off of Pascal instead of BASIC. This tends to be more popular in Europe whereas VB is more for the U.K. and the U.S.

Matlab is only worth learning if you want to work for a scientific/research place where it's booted out FORTRAN as the language of choice.

XML is suddenly very big recently. I don't see its uses but people love it and get large amounts of money for it. It's basically extensible HTML.
BatVink
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 03:38
Hi Scraggle, I've dropped you a mail to your hotmail address.

BatVink
BatVink
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 03:41
Quote: "Java is the popular language right now for certain things but I'm not counting on it to last. Plus many college students are learning this so the market will probably be saturated."


Yes the market is getting saturated, so salaries are low. You need to specialise, or have good business experience to get the well-paid jobs.

Java will be around for a long time to come. I'm not talking about retail, but in the business world. Business is all about talking electronically to customers and suppliers these days, and Java is the most secure way to do this, and also very easy to interface between ERPs.

BatVink
Dazzag
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 08:04
I've been an analyst programmer for a decade now. You can earn serious money, but you really have to *love* programming to last any amount of time IMHO. If it's just the money you are after then I would avoid it myself. Don't get me wrong, I know a few programmers that don't even like programming, and basically do it totally for the money. But they tend to be rare.

When it comes to programming, at least where I work, basically you will want to be either a proper analyst programmer (go in with the client, work out what they want, design it, program it and give out to team to program, deliver it, then maintain it - phew), a super programmer (anything anyone gives you to program you can do, but that is *all* you really do), or a teamleader (give out all work, manage the team, and teach the noobs well). All 3 roles, if done properly, can earn a lot of wedge. Don't knock the super programmer for instance. They are like machines. Can't design for toffee normally, and customer interaction is useless, but hey... Personally I found the full analyst programmer role the best all round in terms of satisfaction and acknowledgement from above, with super programmer being the best for sheer programming satisfaction but worst for acknowledgement. Being the teamleader is great when it's mainly about training noobs. You will wonder why they pay you at all it's so easy. But you rot in the corner....

I've done all 3 roles, and they are all good. But sometimes (and with me *all* the time), you don't get a choice (you are forced to be one or the other). Self employment is the only option out of that one though. Until you get high enough of course.

Currently I'm amazed they pay me so much to mainly create specifications with the customer. Tis a piece of piss compared to programming. Amusingly project managers (like analyst programmers, but more like postmen, and with a total lack of programming knowledge) tend to do stuff like this (before we correct them) where I work, and they are paid *more* than us. Mainly because management love them. For some reason. So basically I reckon management are amazed I do what I do for such small beer. Whatever pays the bills... at the end of the day though we all know why Sales and Project management are the "golden" boys. It's something to do with private school, and probably includes bread and soggyness (don't even go there). With much weird hand shakes and wearing of antlers on the head...

Oh, and with the time you have available, and considering you only have Darkbasic as programming experience, then I would look into VB.NET courses.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 09:30
I didn't know EDS was world-wide, sorry Then again, all of you know a lot more about the programming world than I do, so I think everyone should just ignore me when it comes to stuff like this, lol

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 18:52
I seem to be leaning towards a career in Visual C#.NET does anyone have any experience in the industry that may be able to shed a little more light on the pros and cons of C#.NET?

Thanks

BatVink
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 21:26
Because it's considered to be the little brother, I would imagine it would steer you towards a job on an end-user site, writing bespoke software.

Have you considered whether you want to work at an end-user site, or a software house / consultancy?

BatVink
Renegade
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 21:32
As I see it there is one market that you can fit in
which is programming and designing website, there is a lot of quick money in this market
if you know where to look and how to sell it
However this is a tough market and not everyone can succeed in it.
If you would like to try this you should learn HTML, PHP, JavaScript, ASP, VBScript and whatever you can.
billy the kid
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 21:52
I predict C# will become the next big language. It is just like Java, a revolutionary language, but it provides the flexibility C++ has. So yeah learning it would be great. However you should learn one of the currently popular languages too like VB or C++ just to be safe. I could be wrong about C#.
Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 21:52
Little brother to what Mr V?

Jeku
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 03:29
C# takes everything that's good from C++ and Java, and in my opinion will soon replace C++ in the software field. I recommend learning it after C++ if you wish to learn both.


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David T
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 03:46
Hmm, I thought I'd posted this already, but C# is regarded as the little brother to C++ usually.

Personally, being a c# junkie, I prefer c# (although relying on .NET framework is a bit annoying).

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
BatVink
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 04:56
Quote: "Little brother to what Mr V?"


To C++. I don't know whether it is or it isn't little brother in terms of functionality etc., but that is the common perception and hence the market it is used in.

BatVink
Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 11:16
I think you'd have better luck getting a job with java than c++ right now. Most jobs I've seen requiring c++ skills usually ask for at least 5-7 years of experience already. But there are several entry level openings for java programmers.

And 35 wanting a career change? You got 5 more years before you hit that mid-life crisis stage and want to buy a red sports car.

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DevilLiger
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Posted: 27th Apr 2005 07:21
Well the biggest tips from my Gme Design book and The Book "Masters of Doom" don't even try appling at Id Software from what I've known it's like what ppl say in movies:


Guy 1: "Shall I give you a call? what's your number?"

Guy 2: "Don't call us we'll call you!"

that's like for an example they also said from the book straight out "if you ask we'd probably don't want you!"

These are good lessons beause since they are a big company and you want to get to know how the life of a programmer is like I recommend you read "The Masters of Doom" it's a book about John Carmack and John Romero on a story about the beginning all the way to DOOM III. That should give you a feeling how programming is like in reality. Also this gives you a video game history. C ++ is the way to go right now I'm the same and I'm 21 years old if anyone wants contact email me at meng_thor@hotmail.com and make sure your not emailing me one word like "Hi" because I used to got a buddy and he emailed me constantly "Dot Me" and I laughed at first and you know. anyways learn C ++ and get the basics down. Get into the Mod community like Half Life 1 or 2, Doom 3, and stuff.

Also there are two good game engines I know that are very good and open source as well. OGRE and Crystal Space they both can work on most compilers like Dev C ++, Borland, Visual C ++, and others. Need some more advice email me and that goes to anyone. Make sure you make a demo that's very short and shows your best works, but if it's too long then in the trash as it goes. To me if I recall 1 to 5 minute demo is good enough along with the source code, demo, and all of this goes in the portfolio. Don't email them especially Id your just making them have a bigger trash. Some people like the maker of Half LIfe Counter Strike got famous just from Modding Half Life 1. They hired him on the spot. The work maybe day and night and long shifts, but it's a lot of fun and work. Work is fun in the field. The number one thing you should know is that you play games and you like them. That's the number one thing every video game industry wants especially. DOn't lie to them to because it'll ruin your reputation forever. When you program a working demo put up a website that people are be able to get some testing for you and give you feed backs especially by email and forum posting. Make sure forum posting is there first and I can go on forever because the book is so much interesting and has a lot of info and the book interviews a lot of famous industry ppl like WIll Wright and John Romero and the others. If your not having fun then you probably wouldn't want to work in the industry so always make sure you have the passion and the love for it. While in college make a demo of your game while your at it.

Take classes if possible if you don't want to or can't then I recommend getting online tutorials and don't have money then get Bloodshed's C ++ because it's for free and you can program for Mac, Linux, your own, windows or anything. If you don't have any money and wanna go comercial I recommand Crystal Space, OGRE, or if not that then make your own and get it working. I've only been studying C ++ for one or two months now and only doing a few hours a week like some times two hours to twelve the most. In a year with books and online tutorials or anything it'll get you where you want it. Remember that even if your 35 it doesn't matter you can always have time to learn and make sure stick with your day job first. Learn it while your still working and then get a working demo and get feedback from others and stuff like portfolio then your all set. If you can't get in the industry then start your own. That'll be a lot of work, but I don't know much about your own business in game industry though better contact about somebody else. I hope you get this in time. remember don't quite your day job yet! that way if it doesn't work out then you won't have to look like you've come crawling back. So keep that in mind and also read as much book on
C ++ as you can. In 3D modeling I recommend using Wings 3D learn that first and start of simple to where you want to get. Get help and opinions of your work and so on. Make sure in a interview to any industry don't call them by their first names, but just like any other job interviews. Don't lie especially of what you can do. I don't want you to get bad reputation and not getting hired anywhere in the world maybe. I hope this isn't too much to read lol. well im tired now.

"You may of won the battle, but I have won the war!"
- qoute from somewhere I couldn't remember.
PowerSoft
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Posted: 28th Apr 2005 04:42
Is it possible to set up your own company to program under? Is it easy to get in this way?

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 28th Apr 2005 06:06
Quote: " Is it possible to set up your own company to program under? Is it easy to get in this way?"


Quote: "Start yourself as an independent developer. Get your own website ready to sell games."


This is an extremly risky move though...not to mention you'd be entering a crowded and extremly competetive field.

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DevilLiger
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Location: Fresno,CA,USA
Posted: 4th May 2005 03:26
any ppl had done that even big companies like Id Software started it out like that and ppl like the creater of the Ultima series started out as a hacker. You can and you work on many projects and let it get known and afterwards companies will start to take notice of your game, but make sure your not trying to get into it by learning DarkBASIC though. You'll get no where with that, but I've heard that they use DarkBASIC for quick model or demo of their big game first before getting to the real one. So just start your own company first if you want. Are you getting this down Craig MC and PowerSoft. Well I hope that you guys had got this helpful. HOw did i know these I should say check out a lot of books on gaming industry type of stuff and you'll get to read some most intersting books. Game Design secrets of the sages fourth edition i bought was found extremely helpful. They explanined everything from coding, genres, level design, character design, and everything to making a very good character like Nintendo's Link and Pikachu for an example. I can say that opening up your own company doesn't take much or any money at all, but you can start really really small and grow from there. I'm planning to open a small video game company in the future and release games on the PC and maybe consoles as well like Game Boy. It won't be well known, but just for the community itself. That way my people and my hometown will get good recognition for being small industry where no one doesn't do here in town, but except for Sierra (the makers of empire earth). They are the only ones in town and I don't want to work for them or no body. I want to be my own boss programming my own stuff and a little of thers as well. I'm just wondering how many of you guys are from Fresno, California? I think i'm the only one. Over here you can either make your own or join sierra if you can't afford to go far. By the way I'm not making my own company with using DarkBASIC and I hope that clears it up. It's using C ++, which is right now what I'm learning. By opening up your own company just hope you got something enough to compete and have something what no one has, but it has to be something in good meaning like specialized in good storyline (like me!) or in coding or what so ever(not me!). Is it just me or is it that I modeling in Wings 3D pretty well, but not too good, but the problem is that it's very difficult for me to learn to code because I'm too slow at it. I've been planning my own small game company for a long time and it'll start in a few years once I can get the learning process over with and I'm just talking about the basics like the basics, collisions, and open GL. the big things are don't send resumes by email, fax, phone, or anything else, but just give it to them when they interview you and you give it to them, but also don't go to the company yourself and drop it off. I hope that's enough to get you guys started and more to come as well. The only reason you can't be a programmer in the gaming industry is that you don't know anything and your trying to apply there for a programming job or whatever or living the last day of your life and your trying to apply there. Your not too old to do it, but you should go to college for it because they mostly look for college graduate students in the entry level.

"You may of won the battle, but I have won the war!"
- qoute from somewhere I couldn't remember.

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