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Geek Culture / Game Informer's Developer's Editorial Page & DB Pro

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 09:44
While reading through Game Informer Magazine, I constantly notice (and read) the editorial written by an "industry insider." I was thinking... would it kill me to write an article about TGC and independent games development and try to send it there? I know a lot of people will argue with me about this, but I think all of us are in the gaming industry. Just because we're indie developers doesn't make us any less of a developer, does it? Although some people don't realize DBPro's potential, I know for a fact that many of us do... I'm not the only person producing a game that pushes DarkBASIC Professional to it's outermost limits (not the text rpg for those of you who read my other thread, lol). So my question to all of you is, should I write an article and send it to Game Informer to see what happens? I already wrote half of it... but should I finish it and e-mail it to their editor? If so, what kind of information about the Indie market should I include? Please keep in mind that I don't want to give the impression that the indie market is hard to get into, nor do I want to leave readers thinking that you're limited when developing indie games. I know from personal experience that this is simply not true, as I'm sure some of you have. Another thing, will TGC get angry with me if I give a link to the website in said article? Should I send a copy of said article to anyone? Any thoughts here would be tops!

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Ian T
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 09:59 Edited at: 20th Mar 2005 10:00
I'm sorry to sound so blunt and I really do think it's a good idea, but I doubt GI will even seriously respond to your message. They're the most subscribed to gaming magazine in the world (according to their site). The independant developer community is fairly active, but an incredibly small market compared to their gaming subscriber base. The average GI reader would simply skip over a development section. You'd probably even have better luck getting a small piece into the news section of Game Developer, which has strong ties with the IGDA.

There's a second problem in that many elitist and/or jaded independant developers would not even consider take indies using DarkBASIC seriously.

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
-Lee Bamber
Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 10:09
I considered the fact that they'd possibly never publish it, and my idea is to tell them "hey, you guys are always getting questions regarding how someone can make it in the gaming industry, here's a solution." They've been publishing the developer's editorial for quite some time now, so I assume people are reading it and commenting on it. As far as the elitists are concerned, I could try to say that DB Pro is a great stepping stone for indie developers and also has the capabilities of producing a game on par with more mainstream projects. It can't hurt either way Worst thing that happens is, the editor reads my editorial, decides it isn't print-worthy, and I wasted an hour of my time and ten minutes of his. And no apologies necessary, it's something I'd thought about, and besides, I like blunt, blunt is good: It's better to have constructive criticism than candy-coated responses

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 14:22
go Game Informer!

Video games…they can take you places unreachable, impossible, unfeasible. They put you in the book...they put you in the movie...they put you in a world, a world that before could only be imagined.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 20:58
I wrote 90% of it and now I don't know how to finish it. I started off by addressing those who want to get into the industry and talked about the difficulties involved with actually getting a job in the gaming market. Then I went into the popular misconception that all indie games are simplistic, and explained how there are tools available to make exciting modern games. Then I talk about DB Pro and the TGC tools and how they can be a great stepping stone for budding developers, and also I explain the most basic difficulties for new people to overcome. Lastly, I explain how difficult it is to market an indie game, but I re-assure the reader that it's possible, and remark that the entire industry had to start someplace. And now I don't know how to end the bloody thing and I need suggestions

- Matt Rock

PS.- Will TGC get peaved with me for writing this article?

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Jeku
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 04:48
Quote: "Will TGC get peaved with me for writing this article?"


Why would they? As long as you don't pretend that you work for TGC, then it is entirely opinion-based... right?


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 05:09
I think you should state that if you have a game idea that's really out there indie is the way to go. I mean like DOOM strated off as indie.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Required
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 09:21
[Raven]

It's a damn long time since Doom was originally released by Apogee (1992), and one hell of alot has changed since then.

As little as a decade ago, selling your software as shareware, or the more popular PD (Public Domain) ment that while audiences were initially small, you would get a bigger following by word of mouth.

Remember this is when games like Doom sold for $19.99, and most people didn't buy it because it was too expensive. Game Consoles, and the advent of the 'pure' publisher company has changed that.

This unfortunate shift in the mid-90s (about the time Windows 95 appeared), really hit a blow to Shareware/PD developers everywhere. Games development was no longer about making something fun, but making something that could be sold world-wide.

At the same point in time, companies stopped producing the easy languages. Gone were the days when you could buy a computer and it would come with a form of BASIC that allowed you to create your own software that performs as fast as any of the professionals. It was a dawn of the 'C Mod Programmers'... people who would take engines and create thier own new variation.

The problem isn't, that the industry doesn't take developer like those found here, and at blitz seriously. Nickelodeon has actually published several Blitz3D games over the past few years, including the one currently found on Square CD-Roms for Kellogs. What is to fault here is actually the developers.

On the world-wide scale of games, believe it or not.. your Desktop PC is lowest on the food chain. Right behind the Nintendo GameCube.
This has been the case since, well actually forever. There was a brief stint while the 32bit consoles were appearing, that the PC had it's moment in the sun. On the whole, the market really has always been the smallest on the IBM-Compatible PC.

Only the computers of the 80s really had much popularity, and by today's standards... most shareware developers are reaching about as many people for the same price.

Thing is, £5 now doesn't go quite as far as it did in 1984
(A year when the Mini Cooper was being sold for £450, heh yup that's like half a months pay for most teenagers now)

While it can be said on a big publisher, you get alot more money for developing games... there is a price to pay.
You don't get full control of what is to be developed, sometimes you get no control past little content factors... like colours of a uniform. You don't get to set prices. You have to work to strict deadlines, if you can't make it, then the publisher has the right to work you like a dog until it is.

Believe it or not the unfortunate reward from all of it, is you get to only do development. You don't have to worry about advertising or such.

You would think in a world where the internet is in almost every home in the 'free world', that this would mean that Shareware would reach more people than ever. Funny how you have to spent hundreds, thousands sometimes millions on advertising just for enough people to notice you.

Although Elitist Independant Developers would turn thier nose up at people like those here, for not using C/C++. These same people would snub you for not using OpenGL, and also are often extremely hypocritial as they more often than not use a game engine like Axiom, Ogre3D, Torque, etc..

Yet something you can always depend on, is the fact that professional developers.. often do have great respect for a successful shareware developer, and on occasion they will actually envy the freedom that people have when they are their own boss.

What I'm trying to say is..
Through all of the changes over the past 25years have been immense for the Hobbiest/Shareware Developer, the fact is those are the people that created the fine games industry and have made it the success it is. After all this time, the Public Domain scene is no different than ever. Everyone is still struggling, still trying to be seen, but god love 'em still having a blast in what they're doing.

You might not be published, seen, or even acknowlaged, but honestly.. who cares?

Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 09:51
Quote: "Why would they? As long as you don't pretend that you work for TGC, then it is entirely opinion-based... right?"
What's funny is I was working on this earlier today and thinking that perhaps I'm pitching TGC a bit too much. Maybe I should mention a few other firms hehe

Quote: "I think you should state that if you have a game idea that's really out there indie is the way to go. I mean like DOOM strated off as indie."
Good point! I'm going to add that as a snippet, hehe

And to Required:

Which aspects of that should I add to this editorial, do you think? They're all valuable points but most of this document is finished already. Are you saying I should close with these things? Obviously I'll re-word it so it fits in with the rest of the document but it doesn't seem as though these are closing remarks.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Ian T
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 10:42
Quote: "I think you should state that if you have a game idea that's really out there indie is the way to go. I mean like DOOM strated off as indie."


Actually, that's kind of a common myth. By standards of software development houses of the time, id was actaully doing pretty well when Doom was being made. Wolfenstein 3d was a huge hit. Doom was not their big break.

And I haven't actaully read Raven's post, but assuming it's about how the industry has locked up since then, that's a very good point. Every day it becomes harder to be successful with an indy game both because the average game grows larger in complexity and material and because the major publishers tighten up more. It's easy to point to indy hits like Unreal and Wolf 3d as success stories, but has anyone actually made it big since 2000 with independantly developed software? Certainly nobody comes to mind.

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
-Lee Bamber
Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 11:52
Well, there's American McGee, he was indie before getting signed. The Dice team that made Battlefield, but they sold to EA. Remedy, who brought us Max Payne, but they sold to Rockstar/ Take2. Maxis was, at one point, indie until they, too buckled under EA's power. My studio is creating a high-level game, the likes of some of the afformentioned (or at least I hope so), but we're not planning on selling dist. to anyone. But I think it's still possible; an indie developer could make a name for his or her self if said person tried hard enough

So, independantly developed? yes, a few. Independantly distributed is the real bench-mark in my opinion. But I think that's what you meant anyway, so my apologies for the re-iteration

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 12:28
Quote: ", but has anyone actually made it big since 2000 with independantly developed software? Certainly nobody comes to mind.
"

I think the new game "Sid Meirs (sry on the spelling) Pirates" was just developed by Sid Meir, or thats what i heard, and read, in a few places. Its supposedely pretty decent, after all GI gave it like a 9 point something, which is really good. But then again, Sid Meir is the owner of a large game producing company.

Video games…they can take you places unreachable, impossible, unfeasible. They put you in the book...they put you in the movie...they put you in a world, a world that before could only be imagined.
Ian T
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 12:50
He's sort of the polar opposite of an independant developer. I'm not sure what you're getting at...

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
-Lee Bamber
Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 16:55
Sid Meier owns Firaxis, and they're one of the bigger developers, and the biggest non-distribution RTS-specific development studio to my knowledge. Plus, Pirates! isn't a new title... it's a re-make of one of Sid Meier's classic games, sort of an addition to that Franchise.

Sorry Gil, I know it seems as though I'm always arguing with you but that's really not the case I'm just coming across as wordy & mean today due to a lack of sleep.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 16:56
PS. - I think Blizzard is dev/dist., not just development, before anyone comments on my saying Firaxis is the biggest dev-specific RTS studio

- Matt again

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Required
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 22:36
Quote: "Well, there's American McGee, he was indie before getting signed. "


lol
According to my brother and uncle, he worked at Apogee/Id Software until Quake.

Would this not make him about as independant as John Romero?

Quote: "PS. - I think Blizzard is dev/dist., not just development, before anyone comments on my saying Firaxis is the biggest dev-specific RTS studio "


Blizzard is the Studio, Sierra/Vivendi is the Publisher.

This said, I can not actually recall any Real-Time-Strategy titles from Firaxis. Being the creator of my favourite games of all time, I think that Civilisation and Alpha Centuri come under Strategy.

Quote: "So, independantly developed? yes, a few. Independantly distributed is the real bench-mark in my opinion. But I think that's what you meant anyway, so my apologies for the re-iteration."


Futuremark are an Independant Developer / Distributer. Interesting, as I believe they are perhaps the most successful non-publisher based developer company.

BatVink
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Posted: 21st Mar 2005 23:36
I would always go for it, despite the argumemts for and against. You've already done the article, there's nothing to loose.

What I would consider is how you will be viewed. Have you got an Indie game out there in the market place? If you haven't how can you comment? If you have, how can you display it's worth?

BatVink
Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2005 06:19
To Required: Wow, you really have it out for me in all of the threads, lol. Working at a company isn't the same as developing for one. I was a beta tester a while ago... when we release the game I'm creating, the company I worked for isn't going to be signing any of our paychecks. He created "Alice" all on his own, and EA released it (how handy Jeku's post on a different thread just was). Also, Blizzard distributed independantly for a while (see WC2 for details).

That being said...

To Batvink: I won't have anything released by the time this article reaches GI's doorstep, but I'm hoping that by simply stating my resolve to produce a game that's slated for release in the near future and by writing an editorial that is informative and insightful GI may overlook my lack of a physical product. Other members of my team have, in fact, released indie software, and I'm banking on their experiences for this editorial, too

I'm going to have a friend proof-read it first for grammatical errors and such, then I'm thinking about posting the entire article here for the approval of my TGC peers. Do you think this would be a helpful step? Or would it just procrastinate my goal unnecessarily?

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2005 07:19
Quote: "He created "Alice" all on his own, and EA released it"


Not to sound negative, but remember he had the Quake 3 engine to create Alice.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2005 08:45
Quote: "I'm thinking about posting the entire article here for the approval of my TGC peers. "
Ya, we could be like on that show, were they present scary stories for "the approval of the (something) accosiation".

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

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