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Geek Culture / EA: What's your opinion

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 00:31
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EA will crumble one day... you wait and see

It'll be like, a developers revolution..


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
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empty
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 01:00
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Quote: " Er, EA would only need to become the majority shareholder.

Most people seem to think that if you start a company, you ARE the company when really your just the majority shareholder. The company is a seperate entity. Ea can buy shares in it.

I think thats right anyway
"

But in a company limited by shares (opposed to a PLC) the shares aren't public. So if you found a Ltd. and issue two shares and keep them for yourself EA would have to buy them from you. And if you don't sell them, then there's nothing they can do about it.

Note: This only affects the UK, other countries have completely different laws.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 05:14
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Wow, my thread went red... didn't expect that.

Quote: "Perhaps more, because once your an Ltd all they need to do is purchase majority shares. As most Ltd companys only give 2 shares out to start with because you can't afford £50,000/$100,000 worth of shares, EA could come in buy out your company without much say from you in the matter and do as they please with your franchise."


The United States is seemingly a lot different than the United Kingdom. In terms of business definitions, we have three general types:

Sole Proprietorship: One person owns the business and is solely responsible for the company's earnings, losses, and all debts public or private.

Partnership: Consisting of two or more individuals, this is the business structure my company is based on. Each partner shares, equally, in responsibility for the company's earnings, losses, yadda yadda. These ARE NOT SHARES as are found in a corporation. There are two forms of partnerships, the first being basic as explained prior, the second being what is called a limited partnership (LTD), which consists of two or more individuals, plus one or more silent partners who invest capital and earn from the business's net worth, but are not liable for said company's losses or debts.

Corporations: This is what EA is, and how most software developers structure their companies. In a corporation, two or more shares, each of which is of equal value regarding the overall worth of the company, are sold to outside individuals. Each of these shareholders in turn owns a "share" of the company, and each of these individuals is responsible for the company's earnings, losses, and all that jazz. Since corporations can be owned by any number of individuals (depending on how many shares are sold), they are typically seated by a chairman, as well as a board of select shareholders, who make executive decisions about the business. There is NOT a set value at which a corporation must sell its shares.

For more info about American business structures, click the following link:
[href]http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98359,00.html[/quote][/href]

So no, EA couldn't purchase any part of my company or in any other way buy us out. As a matter of fact, in our business structural plan that was reviewed by lawyers prior to our declaration of creating our business, we stated as an internal ethical policy that our company can never and will never become any variation of any other business structure, and no share of partnership may ever be sold or otherwise transfered to any other individual or party, for any reason. In the event of death of myself or my partner, our share goes to the next of kin, and the same rules apply in such a situation. If there is no next of kin, said partner's share of the company is dissolved. We did this expecting our game to become a best-seller, and if you think that's silly then, well, you'll never be very successful IMO. And if our game is a best seller (which it undoubtedly will be), I'm willing to bet the likeliness of EA trying to buy our company out from underneath us is very, very high.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 06:15
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Quote: "And if our game is a best seller (which it undoubtedly will be), I'm willing to bet the likeliness of EA trying to buy our company out from underneath us is very, very high."




Positive attitude is good--- but so is having a firm grip on reality. Doom 3 was a best seller, and so was Half-Life 2. EA hasn't tried to buy those companies from underneath them so far.


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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 09:37
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Quote: "Positive attitude is good--- but so is having a firm grip on reality."


HAHAA.. both UK and US systems are pretty identical, and a common misconception is that because your shares are not on the open exchange you can not be bought out.

This is WRONG. A Limited Company which is a Private Trading (unlike a Corporation or PLC that are Public Trading), initial value is set to £50,000 / $100,000

Now you have to note that Share Holders bare the fiscal responsibility of a company they own. The point in the Limited companies is hinted in the name... Ltd (Limited) LLC (Limited Liability Company). In essence means you are only liable to loose what you put in... If your company goes bankrupt, then it falls on the shareholders to pick up the tab.

This is important to note, because a Sole/Partnership company you only get a Single Share on start up. The company as a whole however, has 50,000 shares in total. (£1/$2 Start Price)

While yes the technical end of the deal is that majority of the owned shares are yours or equally owned. The person who owns the rest of your share often is the company who incorporates you (in turn are held by a Bank)

These shares are inactive, meaning they have no sway. Thing is that there is nothing in the way from someone else coming in and paying market price to the Bank/Incorporator to get those shares.

The price of your shares are determined by the total Net Worth of the company, once over your minimum return. If you earn under £50,000 this means that you can avoid alot of the tax headaches.

If you are wondering why it is set to £50,000.. this is because this is the Maximum Loan Ammount a Bank will issue any citizen of the UK. In order to take out more you must be part of an incorporated public trading entity.

It also marks the size of the depts your company can go in, before Liquidation / Bankruptcy is called. Again another reason for the Limited name.

While it is possible to purchase all of these shares, remember that the more shares you have in the company from the total available will equate to how much the debts land on your shoulders.

If you become the majority owner (>25,001 or 51% of every £50,000 worth of shares) then you are liable for that full £50,000 (x (networth/50,000))

Don't think your safe just because your private and not public.
The rules are almost identical both sides of the pond.

There are benefits from being a Corporation, unfortunately any debts created is not one of them. heh

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Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 10:13
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Retain 51% of the shares of your corporation privately and it's effectively a privatly owned business without the repreccusions if it goes under... that's all that's relevant to the argument really.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 10:47
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50% plus 1 share, actually.


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Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 10:49
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Right... my bad, sorry

It is a perilous occupation for TGC to post anything by way of a promise, as the words get etched in indestructable marble for all time.
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Peter H
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 00:31 Edited at: 24th Mar 2005 00:43
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@Matt- yeah i'm with you man...if somebody has the "stick throughy ness" then they can make a quality game in DBPro...i think the main problem people run into is that they have no idea how to make high quality media...so they are really just getting mad at their own in-ability to model, texture, design sound, compose...ect

Quote: "It's hard to say no to millions"

not if it's coming from EA

i seriously wouldn't be an ounce happier if i had $30,000,000 more then i have now (and no, i'm not rich currently...let's see...$500 in the bank? me = poor college student)

(not to mention their games suck...if i liked their games then i wouldn't mind them monopolizing at all, and i would take money from them...but so far i'm pretty un-impressed...even i could think up of more creative ideas then them)

[edit]
@Billy the Kid- heh i didn't read you're first page post before posting this..but yeah...i agree they are removing lots of creativity from games (their games don't have bad graphics...they just have un-original gameplay and storyline)

Quote: "Do any of you guys know anything about current local affairs, to a depth of which you (allegedly) have knowledge of EA?
"

uumm...no...we are programmers/indie game devs...we just hide in dark holes all day and work on games (but never finish any of course)

--Peter

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Ian T
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 00:50
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Maybe I'm just cheap, but if someone offered me thirty million for my game, I wouldn't think twice

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empty
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 00:51
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You're not cheap then, you're smart.


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Peter H
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 01:04
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heh...i wouldn't think twice either if it was just a game i was making for fun and it wasn't EA...

(but then again you might wonder why it's worth $30,000,000 to them eh?)

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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the_winch
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 01:26
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Quote: "It [£50,000] also marks the size of the depts your company can go in, before Liquidation / Bankruptcy is called. Again another reason for the Limited name."


Funny I have worked for several Ltd companies that had a lot bigger depts and never went bankrupt. One was even losing more than £50,000 a month.
You won't be bankrupt until the banks/shareholders will no longer loan/give you money to continue business.

Quote: "While it is possible to purchase all of these shares, remember that the more shares you have in the company from the total available will equate to how much the debts land on your shoulders."


The whole point is the limited liability, you only lose what you put into the company when you bought shares nothing more.

Quote: "this is not a quote"
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 04:29
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Quote: "This is important to note, because a Sole/Partnership company you only get a Single Share on start up. The company as a whole however, has 50,000 shares in total. (£1/$2 Start Price)"


I just formed my company, a partnership, and we are legally recognized as a business. There aren't 50,000 shares because we're not a corporation. As a partnership, and because we specified this in our company's creation, no partner is allowed, at any time or for any reason, to sell his holding in the company to any individual or party, ever. Any lawyer will tell you that no amount of money in the world can negate such a contract, and even in death, portions of the company are dissolved for additional protection! There aren't 50,000 shares owned by anyone... the company is literally divided into two, and this doesn't mean I own 25,000 shares and Colin (my partner) owns the other 25,000... it means I own 1 and he owns 1, and they aren't public shares. I just recently had to learn all of this stuff, and I direct you to please go to the website I showed in my last post for more information.

Quote: "i think the main problem people run into is that they have no idea how to make high quality media"


I came up with the plan for our game, and designed almost every aspect of it... The story background, environment, world map layout, items, weapons, structures, clothing, skills the characters can learn... but when it comes to art I'm a total moron. Luckily though I have skilled friends That's why we made a company and whatnot, because while they would love to apply their crafts to a game, they wouldn't know where to begin. I agree, though, it's all about media. A game could have an incredible story and really fun gameplay, but if it doesn't look and sound fantastic nobody would even try it. When I say nobody, I mean the mainstream market... as indie people we tend to try each other's products. Also, keep in mind that while you might be proud of "hello world," a stranger might laugh at you for making it... some of the games that indie dev's make are fairly low quality, usually because of poor media, but they get so proud of their own creation that they ignore insight from other people. IMO it's the people who accept constructive criticism that make it places in this business. Another value to working with a team as opposed to being a lone wolf.

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 04:58 Edited at: 24th Mar 2005 05:00
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Quote: "i seriously wouldn't be an ounce happier if i had $30,000,000 more then i have now "


I call your bluff! There are maybe 1000 people in the world who may say no to $30 million--- and those are the billionaires who don't need it. I'm sorry, I just don't believe you. Is your *first* big game really worth more than that for you? Sure John Carmack wouldn't sell him Doom 3 license and all of its rights for $30 million--- but that's John Carmack. He has produced about a dozen high-quality smashing games.

Oh the things you could do with 30 million. For one thing you'd never have to work for somebody else ever again. You could invest it, or better yet hire some programmers or artists and spend five years making another killer game or doing the things you love, like spending time with your family, writing music, etc. What would be better? It would be nice to help out some of the poorer members of my family. You like that car? I'll buy it for you. Hehehe...


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 06:42
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Forget my family, those greedy sons But I dunno, if they offered you money, I don't think it would be 30 million. If it were 30 million, and it shames me to admit this, but I might give it more thought. If it were only 2-5 million, honestly? I don't look at that as a lot of money. When you take into consideration that it has to be split several different ways, and also that I'm hoping to sell that many units let alone make that much money by the end of '05, it would not be a very prosperous deal. But I think that's just how I think... I'm a realist when it comes to some things and a dreamy eyed optimist when it comes to other things.

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Peter H
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 07:17
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Quote: "but when it comes to art I'm a total moron."

lol yeah me to...i can create all the little details of a world but when it comes to putting it into some 2D art/textures i get extreme "art block"...which stinks

Quote: "I just don't believe you. Is your *first* big game really worth more than that for you? "

it's not that it's worth more than that to me...it's that if i gave it to EA they would profit from my brilliant idea (it would have to be brilliant for them to pay me for it) I would rather shun $30,000,000(or whatever..I.E. they ain't getting a game from me for $3) then have EA profit from my creativeness

if i was a person who cared about money i would proly except it...but since all the money i need i can earn in some other job (game programming isn't going to be my main source of in-come)

also although i might find some pleasure in getting $30,000,000 from a game i made selling in stores...i wouldn't feel at all comfortable with EA's filthy lucre in my pocket...(NTM having that much money can get pretty boring...whoo..i can retire...now i have lot o money...well whoopdeedoo)

if i got $30,000,000 i would proly keep about $200,000 and give the rest away...

(LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooong post )

--Peter

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Mar 2005 16:21
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LOL Peter thinks that a long post Apparently you haven't read anything I've ever written in the forums, hehe. I just figured I'd say that before someone else did, hehe. Better to admit my guilt than have it pointed out to me

I thought about this a lot... $30 million. That's a whole lot of money. For a little while I was like "Hmm, I'd be flippin' nuts to turn that down." But then it dawned on me... I've spent the last several years designing every nook and cranny of this game. I've had massive arguements with girlfriends (whom are now ex's) because I was too dedicated to working on this project to give them the time they wanted (not that I regret it... shoe shopping isn't my idea of a good time). I've walked from any actual job and I've dedicated myself to making this game 100%, because that's the sort of faith I have in it, and that's the sort of love I have for it. Would I take the cash and walk? No way. I don't have any kids (and if the world gets lucky I never will, hehe), but I *do* have this game. It's the only thing I've focused on this hard in my life, and it saved me from working a meaninglessly dull job from 9am to 5pm for the rest of my life. So yes, I have to say that this game means too much to me to watch it get destroyed. To watch EA get succesful with it and make crappy sequels to a game that never should have sequels because it's an MMO. So after careful consideration, nope, no sale. It'd be like selling a part of me, I think. And if that sounds silly to anyone, then that just means you're not as passionate as me... or something

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 05:24
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Quote: "It's the only thing I've focused on this hard in my life, and it saved me from working a meaninglessly dull job from 9am to 5pm for the rest of my life."


Well what do you do right now for income? Still live with your parents? Or was that sentence not supposed to be in the past tense?


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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 05:38
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Quote: "i seriously wouldn't be an ounce happier if i had $30,000,000 more then i have now (and no, i'm not rich currently...let's see...$500 in the bank? me = poor college student)"


I would not say no to £18,000,000! Does not matter where it comes from, as you could retire with that much. Make games just for fun. That is something I enjoy doing now.

Quote: "To watch EA get succesful with it and make crappy sequels to a game that never should have sequels because it's an MMO."


A Massively Multiplayer Online Game, does not mean there will not be sequels. There are reasons to create a new version of a title.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 08:12
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The way I have it planned, there *will* be a sequel to this game, but not a typical MMPOG remake... it's a completely different time frame, but the same planet and general rules of physics. It's a bit too depthful to get into here, but in a nutshell, I want to see this complete trilogy of games made the way I intended it... not the way some suit intends it. At the end of the day I'm making this game because I honestly feel that it will entertain people. Making money is second to me... I see so many games being made that are cash- oriented, and no heart, no soul goes into them.

Quote: "Well what do you do right now for income?"

I would tell you, but I'd have to kill you hehe I'm a freelance writer for science "think tanks." the pay is cruddy but I can make my own hours, so it isn't all that bad.

- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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