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Geek Culture / UK Elections

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Raven
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 16:54
I know that Politics aren't really allowed anymore given the constant bickering that goes on, but often the problem is the americans seem to have an opinion on everything... despite what they understand (or can legally do, like VOTE :p)

Hopefully as none of this really conserns them, they can mind thier own business for once. But just in-case a moderator should keep an eye on the thread.

...

Well anyways, as the Elections (in May) draw ever closer. We're getting to hear more and more about what each party has to say, how much Labour is defending how they've acted (or rather how they're trying to claim they've achieved what they've promised).

Each side is providing some strong arguments..
Labour are trying to stand by thier track record, but in more areas than most clamining a Vote for Lib Dem is a vote for Conservative.

Conservative are putting across a compact manifesto that is directly designed to appeal to what just about everyone wants to see changed. (until people are asked to read it they don't seem to want to, which can only be a good thing for Labour as those who do read it seem impressed)

Lib Dem are putting across some realistic goals they want to achieve, and are the only party showing where the hell they plan to be funding all of thier campaigne promises from.

The polls are getting very close last time I checked as well...
Labour 38%
Tories 35%
LibDem 23%

Right now it does seem like a clear cut battle between the top two parties, which is a shame but the fact that Lib Dem has gained over 8% from thier last standing proves not only is there a shift in power happening but that Labour this time is really comming down to the wire that they're loosing thier constituants.

Personally I feel it's time for a change, and convinced my family for the most part (apart from my mom who doesn't want Tories in) to vote Lib Dem.

I mean if for no other reason that... it's someone else's turn to f**k up the country.

Still many of thier country redesign schemes make more sense.
For example the scrapping of the Personal ID Cards (Est. £11Biln Cost) and putting that directly back in to the NHS.

Also they're run by a Scott, and not to sound out of place... but I do feel that a Working Class Scott, leading the party will provide far more in the way of sensible choices when it comes to money issues than the other party guys who were born with silver spoons in thier mouths and would never know what POVERTY means if it came up and slapped them in the fact.

I mean it is a fair to say, the scottish aren't exactly frugle with thier purse strings.

Might be an idea for someone who has more time to sit down and write out a list of the main policies of each of the candidates, but honestly I don't even know what the Labour Memorandum is... just keep seeing the internet and tv special things where they're having that stupid chat in-front of an open fire.
(nice to see your enjoying yourselves but if you COULD let us know what the heck you plan to do for the next 4years that'd be peachy!)

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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 17:17 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 17:45
It seems that people have very short memories regarding Blair & Iraq (but yet can remember all the Conservative in-fighting - odd eh?)

The main problem with ID cards is that it will lead to another failed IT project, that will only half-work, give errornous results and who's cost will spiral out of control due to poor design and implementation. The Government just doesn't know how to keep control over money and development with things like that.

The Lib Dems would be okay if they would change their EU policies. Charles Kennedy seems to be the only half-decent MP around.

As for the Conservatives - Michael Howard has about as much charisma as a wooden spoon, and their is still too much infighting going on (it really needs new and young blood), and is the only really decent party going - the grinning Jackanape from Labour should be sent on a one-way journey to the Sun.

As an aside, this is what we've received from the main paries :

Lib Dems - Personally address flyer.
Conservatives - Generally address flyer
Labour - Nothing

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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 18:20 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 18:22
Anybody see the Jeremy Paxman interview with Blair? Paxman did his trademark questioning technique, and never got a straight answer. You can actually just read the bits in bold to get the idea (or is it no idea?)...

Quote: "Paxman: Can you tell us how many failed asylum seekers there are in this country?

Blair: No, I can't be sure of the numbers of people who are illegals in this country...

Paxman: Can you give us a rough idea of how many there may be? Is it tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

Blair: I've said I don't think there's any point in speculating.

Paxman: But you have no idea.

Blair: Well, it's not a question of having no idea.

Paxman: Well, what is your idea, Prime Minister?

Blair: What you can say is, how people are applying for asylum, month by month...

Paxman: Prime Minister, you have really no idea of how many failed asylum seekers there are illegally in this country?

Blair: It is difficult, for the very reason that ...

Paxman: You don't know.

Blair: Hang on. For the very reason that the previous government gave, you cannot determine specifically how many people are here illegally.

Paxman: You have no idea.

Blair: What you can say is, here are the number of people that are actually currently applying for asylum.

Paxman: Yes.

Blair: This is the backlog of claims that you're dealing with. And these are the people who are being removed from the country.

Paxman: Do people not come to you and say: we think, Prime Minister, there may be 100,000 or 250,000 , or 500,000 ...

Blair: They don't come and say that.

Paxman: So you have no idea.

Blair: No, hang on a minute. You have an idea of the numbers that are claiming...

Paxman: What's your working assumption?

Blair: I don't make a working assumption about it. What I do is I concentrate on the bits...

Paxman: Does the fact that you're unable or unwilling to tell us indicate that you have in fact lost control of our borders?

Blair: No, it doesn't indicate that...

Paxman: And just one final time, you have no figure that you can give us for the number of refused asylum seekers who are in this country.

Blair: I'm giving you the information that I've got, and I've answered that question.

Paxman: You can't give us any kind of figure.

Blair: The reason is because some people will return after their asylum claim has failed.

Paxman: Right. So you have no idea.

Blair: Well, what you have is an idea of the numbers that are coming in and claiming and the numbers that you're removing. Now, those are the two important things to concentrate on.

Paxman: Well, what is that number?

Blair: The number coming in now, it's fallen to just over about 2,000 a month...

Paxman: But it gives us no indication of the backlog, of course.

Blair: Well, no, sorry, it does give me an indication.

Paxman: No, it doesn't.

Blair: No, no, no, Jeremy. Excuse me. You can say what the backlog is of claims....

Paxman: Although you've not given us a number.

Blair: Well, I've just explained to you why it's impossible to do that. But what you can do is give numbers for the other things.

Paxman: Let's look at economic migrants. Is there an upper limit to the number of economic migrants who should be allowed into this country?

Blair: Well, there's an arbitrary limit or a quota, in my view, but there's going to be a limit set by what your economy needs.

Paxman: What does our economy need?

Blair: And the points system that we're introducing will make sure that only people get work permits who actually come in and we need for our economy.

Paxman: What does our economy need?

Blair: Well, at the moment, I think... Well, I haven't got the exact figure off the top of my head, but I think it's about 130,000 come in with work permits, but most of those people will come in, work for a time and go again.

Paxman: Your previous home secretary, David Blunkett, told us that he saw no obvious upper limit.

Blair: No, what he's saying is exactly the same as me....

Paxman: But you have predictions of the economic growth of this country. You know roughly what's going to happen with the labour market. Why are you so shy of just putting a rough figure on it?

Blair: Well, you can take the figures now. I don't think the figures on work permits have changed that much in the past few years. But the reason I shouldn't put a figure on it, is that I don't run every business in the country. Supposing you get a business in the City of London that says, actually, we need 50 people in this specialty to come in and work here for six months. You'll do tremendous damage to your economy if you start taking out all migrant labour. Or for, even more absurdly, parliament to come along and say we, parliament, suddenly know what the needs of employers are in the country, it makes no sense to do that.

"


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Philip
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:43 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 19:44
I think the less I have to say about Labour (or the lieing warmongering party of hypocrite ex-socialists), the better.

I've met Charles Kennedy. In the flesh he's horribly unimpressive. He comes across as very nice but utterly clueless. I don't regard him as having the balls necessary to be prime minister of a major country.

As my signature file below testifies, I shall be voting Conservative.

Are you thinking what we're thinking?

Philip

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Robin
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:45
Yeah I saw that - He's interviewing Michael Howard tonight (7:30 BBC1) - that ought to be good
Apparently next week on question time Blair, Kennedy and Howard are giong to be on all at the same time - One to watch for sure!

Robin

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adr
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:46 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 19:57
That interview annoyed me at certain points. People credit Paxman as being a good interviewer, but he still has the age old tricks of any political interviewer, he's just a little more persistent. Twisted questions which you can't answer - Yes implies one thing and No implies another.

"Paxman: Can you give us a rough idea of how many there may be? Is it tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?"
"Blair: I've said I don't think there's any point in speculating."

He's right. WTF does it matter? Do we go out and start shooting people who look like illegal imigrants? The answer to that question is entirely immaterial. If it was 5,000 then what? If it was 2,000,000 then what? The question is purely sensationalist reporting. If the alternative to Labour is the cheap-shot conservatives, then unfortunately, we need something constructive, not headline grabbers like "PM has NO IDEA how many illegals are in the country".

To be honest I enjoyed it more when you see the more aimiable side of people, like when he started quizzing the PM on his thoughts about the pope.

It may sound like I'm defending Labour, which ... I sort of am. Certainly if the alternative is that creepy Mr Howard. What I'm arguing about is a specific line of questioning which is designed to spark a row... and people fall for it! Just to throw in my political thoughts, the conservatives are a little too far right for me. Conservatism is always good in theory, but in practice it's actually quite nasty. They'd cut so many services which aren't at the forefront of everyone's mind. International Development would be gone, for example.

Doesn't the notion of a "shy voter" make people realise that if you have to conceal your political stance, it's therefore morally wrong? For example, I'd have much more respect for a BNP candidate who went around in a car with a megaphone, rather than some duplicitous, secretive candidate. That said, the guy with the megaphone'd probably be beaten to a pulp ... but I'd still respect him for standing up for his beliefs, even if they are horribly disagreeable.

Me? With my reputation?
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:47 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 19:53
Quote: "Are you thinking what we're thinking?"

Too right, oh fellow Conservative...

Quote: "I've met Charles Kennedy. In the flesh he's horribly unimpressive."

Is he ? Shame...

The only time I've met an MP is when I leave the voting building and they're outside...

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Robin
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:56
I agree with you Adr - when he was interviewing Charles Kennedy he kept on asking for the exact number of wind farms required for the liberal Democrats plans for half of the uk's energy source to be renewable by 2050. Kennedy didn't really have a clue but did it really matter? I mean it would be pretty difficult to give a good estimate anyway...

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Raven
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 21:15
I would see that as a good think Philip.
On the one hand, he does seem a little niave about the workings of westminster, and how things work on a global scale.

That is part of the charm I see in him, rather than looking at 'well how will this action look to our American allies?', he is more likely to get on with what's important. Such as rebuilding our infrastructure that is collapsing.

Rover folding in the last week is a prime example of this.

So in the main steaks he is looking far more out to try and provide what this country had before the privatisation (aka Thaturism) did to the country. While Labour have promised for the last 12years that they were firmly going to fix the underlying issues, they've side-steped thier promises time and time again.

This brings be back to how a 'clueless' approach might be the best. Labour and Conservative know how to play the system. They know how to get the public on thier side so they get in power.

Labour have crippled the country.
Conservative can't seem to show a united face, which despite some good campaigne promises worries me. This has only become apparent since the 'War on Terrorism' though.
Liberal Democrat, seem to be the fresh face that is needed right now.

Although you can claim that we need a party who knows what they're doing with years of experience. I think the sentiments were echo'd above when someone said 'Conservative needs a younger fresher face', because they do.

People who don't know the system, might make similar mistakes, or it is more likely they won't be bound by a set way of thinking that ties the hands. It was clear in the BBC interviews with Kennady that while the policies are looking out for the lower classes (something that LABOUR primarily should be doing btw), it also seems that he doesn't mind treading on a few toes in order to achieve the gains.

Although I do say him, as a leader... in reality it's the whole party that is in power. While Labour and Conservative keep trading major players, Liberal Dem have had roughly the same cabinate for quite a number of years. Although sure, not in the lime light, they do have quite a number of years of experience.

When I see Kennedy, it is clear to me. That for once you have a leader who honestly wants to try and do some good rather than trying to make the entire country love the policies being put across.

Labour obviously is working on trying to make people fear putting Conservative in. Conservative are working to just make themselves look like the popular choice.. in the background you have a voice that doesn't promise the earth, and sounds like the party has sat down and asked 'is this possible?'.

It's not likely they'll win, I'd be pleasently suprised if they do. Still it is nice to see that there is atleast one party putting the interest ahead of the parties popularity, and even better is the fact that... they are getting popular because of it.

Gaining a percentage every few days, with a month to go. It's possible, slim but possible this could for once be a three-way race.
Philip
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 22:33 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 22:34
@Raven

Obviously I don't agree with your opinions but the key point is that you are going to vote and for the party you agree with. And thats great because thats what democracy is all about. Well done to you!

The major thing that winds me up about elections is the fact that many Brits whinge for years about the government in power at any one time but when they are given the opportunity to vote, they don't bother. Then they whinge that their vote is meaningless.

As far as I am concerned, if you don't vote, you have no locus standi to complain about any political issue at all. Oh, and your vote isn't meaningless. You may be one of a voting population of about 30m, but every single vote matters. If you want to be egotistical and arrogant and personally have a major say in which way the seat goes, move to a marginal constituency.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Philip
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 22:36
@Bouncy

I think you should change your name to TCA, i.e. The Conservative Area.

#P#h#i#l#i#p

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 22:39 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2005 22:53
Good idea

Since I've been old enough to vote, I've always been eager to get to the polling station. Think I've only missed one so far, but that was due to living in Egham at the time.

I would also like to sit on a jury, but the chances of getting the callup papers for that are slim...

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 23:40
Quote: "I know that Politics aren't really allowed anymore given the constant bickering that goes on, but often the problem is the americans seem to have an opinion on everything... despite what they understand (or can legally do, like VOTE :p)

Hopefully as none of this really conserns them, they can mind thier own business for once. But just in-case a moderator should keep an eye on the thread."


Yeah.... OK.
How many of you had your "opinions" about the US election a few months back. Don't act like Americans are any more intrusive or opinionated than you are. This is a public forum. Live with it.

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 00:03
Quote: "How many of you had your "opinions" about the US election a few months back. Don't act like Americans are any more intrusive or opinionated than you are. This is a public forum. Live with it."


Heh. I was living there at the time, just a shame I hadn't been there for 4years because on a working Greencard I could've voted.

Quote: "Since I've been old enough to vote, I've always been eager to get to the polling station. Think I've only missed one so far, but that was due to living in Egham at the time."


I missed my first vote, was going to abstain it anyways but I was in the midst of moving country. Was taken off the voting registra by the government after my Specialist Working Visa went through.

So this is basically the first election I can take part in.

Can't say anyone impressed me (well after talking to my mom) but was going to vote Conservative last time. The policies they were putting across sounded best to me.
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 00:23 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2005 00:25
Quote: "Heh. I was living there at the time, just a shame I hadn't been there for 4years because on a working Greencard I could've voted."


Nope. Only US citizens have the right to vote.

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 01:14
Lib Dems for me. My family all think otherwise. I think its time for some major changes.

Quote: "I would also like to sit on a jury, but the chances of getting the callup papers for that are slim..."


I got called up at the start of last year, I was prewarned it could take 4 weeks rather than the usual 2, but then they cancelled a week before. I got called again towards the end of the year and sat through a week of several last minute pleas of guilty and a jury selection then was sent home being told I wouldnt be asked again(for a while anyways) All in all it was pretty boring.

Quote: "americans seem to have an opinion on everything... despite what they understand (or can legally do, like VOTE :p)"


but I thought you were British ?

David T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 01:52
I don't want to start any arguments here, but speakking to people it's "I'm supporting Lib Dem", "Plaid Cymru" etc etc.

This is just my personal view, but it seems that voting for the smaller parties seems to be 'trendy'. IMO voting for small parties is a wasteof a vote, because, really, when are they going to get in?

I think the battle's between Blair and Howard, and imo I'd do anything to get rid of Blair.

Admittedly I'm can't vote and s my views have no effect, but next election here I come...

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 02:35
Quote: "I don't regard him as having the balls necessary to be prime minister of a major country."


Not taking sides, this is my impression of Michael Howard. He comes across as a bumbling, stumbling, forgotten what we stand for, second rater. I listened to him on Radio 1, he starts a sentence, and then repeats the same thing several times over in the space of a minute. And he always slips in a "Let me finish" or ten.

Whether you like Conservative views or not, I think putting him up front was a mistake, he could be their downfall.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 02:35
i think the reason lib dem are losing is because no-one thinks anyoen else is voting for them, so vcote for someone more likely to win hoping the vote will count.

i'd vote lib dem simply because of the reasons stated by raven, plus the fact that it'll be during the next governments term that i'll be at uni, and libdem are the only ones offering free uni tuition.
Raven
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:23
Quote: "I don't want to start any arguments here, but speakking to people it's "I'm supporting Lib Dem", "Plaid Cymru" etc etc.

This is just my personal view, but it seems that voting for the smaller parties seems to be 'trendy'. IMO voting for small parties is a wasteof a vote, because, really, when are they going to get in?"


I'd hardly call the Lib Dem's share of the parliment 'smaller party'... since the 80s they've been part of the top 3 runners, but they've never quite been as high as they have... just under Quarter of the vote, which considering the other two own around 60-70% Shared, this is quite an achievement. (as it leave only around 5-15% left)

Around here it isn't so much as tendy as actually the normal. The Langley's have had a Lib Dem MP representing them for over a decade now. This is why it made me laugh when we got a Labour pamphlet through the door saying 'A vote for Lib Dem is a vote for Conservative'... they then showed a graph of the last election in Watford where Lib Dem only got 8%. In the Langley's though they've always got above 75%, so people are very set in who they prefer around here.

Personally I don't like the Watford MP, never have. She's actually quite rude, and I've had to deal with meeting her on several occasions due to my mom being part of the Social Service Unison respresentitive... so she has to fix alot of problems between the Local Council (of the West Herts Branch.) and the Council run facilities.

Can't say I trust the fact that she looks like she's been doing smack for several years either heh

Definately have to hope that more young people vote though, because really I can see the whole tution thing going down well... given my brother is a moocher, he relies on me to provide alot of stuff for him (college/uni being one of them), so yeah that's one of the points that appeals to me to. Costs me less to get him edumacated.
Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 04:08
This is the first time I will be voting in a General Election.

I refuse to even consider Labour as a result of the Iraq War, Anti-Terror Bill, Changes to the judicial system, Attempts to introduce ID Cards, Incitement of Religious Hatred bill, Usage of the Parliament Act, Handling of the Fuel Crisis and other authoritarian actions.

Considering that Labour have managed to run the economy reasonably well thus far (at least from a short-term perspective), it seems disappointing, but I am a strong libertarian.

This leaves me with a choice of Conservative or Liberal Democrat. I like Conservative taxation policies (although I accept they would lead to cuts in public services), but I just cannot abide their stance on immigration. Not only because it is a tiny, nigh on irrelevant issue which I believe should not be at the forefront of an election campaign, but also because it neither addresses the root causes of the perceived problem, nor can it be disguised that the proposals are designed to appeal to the worst xenophobic sentiments of the electorate.

I like the Lib Dem's libertarian direction, but I'm really not sure whether I want to risk the establishment of a 50% tax rate.

Choices choices... (Of course, if there is a Monster Raving Mad Loony party candidate in my area... "Vote for insanity! You know it makes sense.")


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Raven
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 04:23
The tax rate depends on your earnings, just as your Local Income Tax (replacement of Council Tax).

At the lower end you will be able to earn more before paying, currently this is set to £4000pa which is silly, given even most teenagers with part-time jobs earn over that.

It also means lower tax when you do start paying. From what I understand it would be a drop from 23% to 18% for the lowest bracket, which most people will fall under (upto £18,000pa).

The only people seeing a 50% tax rate will be those earning more than £250,000pa, if you think about it that's still a good £125,000 take home. So they're not exactly going to starve :p
Oraculaca
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 04:24
Quote: "IMO voting for small parties is a wasteof a vote, because, really, when are they going to get in?"


Then how do you get change? By voting for a smaller party you are reducing the margins. Maybe they wont get in this time but as support builds then in the future perhaps. If they have policies that you believe in then why not vote for them? whether a political party is 'fashionable' certainly isnt a feature that I look for.

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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 04:54
Quote: "Choices choices... (Of course, if there is a Monster Raving Mad Loony party candidate in my area... "Vote for insanity! You know it makes sense.")"

Indeed - UKIP is also a possible choice here. Vertias isn't though... Nor Greens, I believe.

Quote: "All in all it was pretty boring"

Bet it beats working though

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 05:12
VOTE VERITAS!!!!!! you know it makes sense!!!
DBAlex
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 05:29
Nope.

No ones going to vote veritas...sorry for pissing on your bonfire but its true...



I think my parents will be voting labour...which i really hate...


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David T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:18
The Labour MP here is abolute trash. The DBPro debugger has more function than her.

And, even though Howard may on the whole a bit dodgy, the conservative candidate in our area seems pretty decent and so I really really really do hope our senseless Labour MP gets thouroughly owned come May 5th.

Also, anybody considering British Communists?

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/index.php

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:27
Nio need to vote Veritas, we already have a monarchy in this country

BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:34
Quote: "This is just my personal view, but it seems that voting for the smaller parties seems to be 'trendy'. IMO voting for small parties is a wasteof a vote, because, really, when are they going to get in?"


If not everyone thought like you(which they do), then voting for a small party could have a huge effect, but sadly people fail to realise that maybe their one vote does not count...but it a million others are thinking the same way, it just might.

p.s. I am an American and I am butting in

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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:39
Quote: "Indeed - UKIP is also a possible choice here. Vertias isn't though... Nor Greens, I believe."


UKIP and Vanitarse are an unfortunate product of democracy. I detest their views, but I support their right to voice them.


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Chris K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:52
Quote: " The only people seeing a 50% tax rate will be those earning more than £250,000pa, if you think about it that's still a good £125,000 take home. So they're not exactly going to starve :p"


Can we all please learn how taxes work before we talk about it.

If the limit for 50% tax is, let's say, £250,000 you do not end up with £125,000! You pay 50% tax on anything you pay above the limit.

Otherwise if you would get more if you earnt £249,000 than £250,000.

This is also Blair's last election. Even if the Tories get this election (which they probably wont) Brown would get the next one.

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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 07:06
In addition, the Lib Dems' proposed threshold is £100K not £50K.


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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 07:49
Quote: "This is also Blair's last election"

About time too.

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David T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 08:45
It really was an open book for the Tories, I don't know how they managed to mess it up

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You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 10:24
Reasons to vote veritas

kilroy: when are you going back?
assylum seeker: july
kilroy: Why july, why not tomorrow?

kilroy: <<to old man with walking stick>> vote for me or i wrap that stick around your neck.

the only way of winnning is to vote veritas, don't you see? its the only way britain will fall to an all out anarchy!!! woooooo riots!
Philip
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 21:46
The suggestion of a 50% income tax bracket (which when you take into account all the indirect taxation is actually an aggregate 72% tax rate) makes me laugh. Talk about politicians having short memories. Does nobody remember the 1970s and the economic meltdown our country suffered when we had silly tax rates? Has nobody heard of the Laffer curve (which proves the disincentive effect of absurdly high tax rates)?

Also, I don't follow the reasoning behind ID cards at all. As many of you know, during 2003 I lived in Hong Kong. Every one of the 7 million people in HK has to have an ID card. It was widely acknowledged by the police and the HK government that it had no effect on crime whatsoever and was basically a means of control imposed by the state (ultimately run from Beijing of course). The justification put forward by our politicians here in Britain is equally laughable. No sophisticated terrorist is going to have any greater trouble creating fake ID cards than they already have creating fake passports.

I regard ID cards as the latest iteration of the creeping death of liberty in our country. Far too much control freakery from the current government.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 23:08 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2005 23:10
Quote: "Has nobody heard of the Laffer curve (which proves the disincentive effect of absurdly high tax rates)?"


Whilst the Laffer curve is obviously accurate at the extremes, the location of the 'optimal' tax position is subject to some discussion.

The economic argument for higher taxation (to an extent) is that people tend to have an acceptable level of income, where they can afford to pay for their lifestyle. If taxes are raised, people will either work longer hours or change jobs in order to get their disposable income back up to a level they deem acceptable.

Obviously the 98% tax rate of the 1970s was absolutely idiotic, but I think the government could probably get away with 50%. The huge flaw in the Lib Dems plans is that their calculations don't allow for tax avoidance attempts or emmigration ("brain drain"). Unfortunately for the government the people on the wrong end of higher taxes are the people most able to do something about it.

Quote: "which when you take into account all the indirect taxation is actually an aggregate 72% tax rate"


I'm interested to know how you get that figure. Surely the aggregate tax rate depends on the proportion of your income which falls under the higher tax bracket?


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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 23:09 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2005 23:14
Quote: "Far too much control freakery from the current government."

Quite - although my main concern with ID would be the computer implentation of the system. The Government (of any sort) cannot get to grips with very large scale implemtations and always chooses the cheapest company to implement it, without deciding what is needed. The chosen company then avoids finding out what is and isn't possible, and badly designing the system to start with.

Take the CSA for example. Workers there are still avoiding the computer system and writing stuff out manually. And that ignores those who just give false information to speed everything through.

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IanM
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 23:11
Quote: "Far too much control freakery from the current government"


But haven't all UK governments been like that in one way or another? They all end up with an inflated opinion of themselves and their policies. IMO, anyone who wants to be a politician is not qualified to be one - I think that westminster proves that point nicely.

I'm tempted to just sit here, totting up how many things each party wants to change, and then vote for the one who wants to change the least number.

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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 23:17
Quote: "and then vote for the one who wants to change the least number."

That'll be the Monster Raving Loony Party then...

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Vote Nicholas J. Kingsley BSc for benevolent dictator.
Dazzag
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 01:28
Quote: "I'm tempted to just sit here, totting up how many things each party wants to change, and then vote for the one who wants to change the least number."
Do what I did the one and only time I ever voted. Use beer. Everything becomes clearer that it doesn't matter either way. Also, why waste time, and basically give all your money to the poor. Thats people who really do need it, and half of the tosspots who don't work and you only ever see when you are on holiday, but stay at home.

Much like my sister who rented her house to a family who proceeded to not pay the final few months of rent. Council told her nothing could be done (obviously none of them actually worked) as the father had switched the cheque going straight from the government to my sister, to his bank instead (which is perfectly fine). Council then said to get him on tape admitting it, and then they would have a case. They did this when they next confronted him. He basically had moved into a brand new house (with 3 bay drive way) from the council, and told them he should be able to buy it (massive reduced rate for Chavs) in another year or so, perhaps even getting another council effort next door to make into super house. He said the council should be sending the cheques to my sister, oh and to have more children as you got loads more money (honest). Took the tape to the council who basically said "Did we say that? Oh no, nothing you can do I'm afraid". F**knuts... and you don't even want to know how they left the place (months of cleaning apparently).

My whole immediate family are now moving to Cyprus. No f**king suprise there, and a**e if I'm voting this time.

And it's well annoying that the government hasn't invented a weather machine that would have well sorted last years pathetic abortion of a summer. And this spring is a bit drab too. Just when my lodger gets a convertible. Drat....

Bit of a ramble there, but I have a headache, so forgive me...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Dazzag
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 01:34
Heh, and that's on St Georges day. A**e to patriotism eh? F**k it, I'm Welsh, and old George was french anyways.

BTW, how come St Patricks day seems to be more celebrated here? I heard on the radio that an Asda in Slough had the wrong flags (Irish ones!), but actually they for Jersey potatoes week. Yes, they were celebrating Jersey potato week rather than St Georges day. Grief. More PC tasticness? Probably considering we wern't even allowed to fly the flag a good few times (upsets foreigners apparently, even if it is our country).

God, I'm in a bad mood today. Argle! And why does Firefox keep mucking up this text box!!!! Either it doesn't automatically go to the next line when you reach the end (word hits exactly the end of the line, you press space and nothing *looks* to happen, even though it has really done a space), or when you press a smiley it puts it at the end of all the text (same for quotes etc). Grrrr....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
adr
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 02:26
Quote: "... I just cannot abide their stance on immigration. Not only because it is a tiny, nigh on irrelevant issue which I believe should not be at the forefront of an election campaign, but also because it neither addresses the root causes of the perceived problem"


My god man, well put. You're right - Surely, out of all the things wrong with this country there should be something else higher on the Agenda?

Also, as an aside, I'm just really really proud that this discussion has remained civilised. There's been no cheap shots, no abuse. It's really nice to see a discussion on politics without some Daily Mail reader coming in

Me? With my reputation?
David R
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 03:02 Edited at: 24th Apr 2005 03:07
Quote: " old George was french anyways"


Ummmm.....

The only relation Saint george has to France is that he fought in Edward 111's campaigns in France in 1345-49. He was born in Doncaster in 1061.

Quote: "'I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge
Cry God for Harry, England and St George!'."


And on the politics:

I dont believe michael howard is fit to run our country: He is a untrustworthy person, who is just a remmanance of the old Conservatives. The only policies he has are anything he can snipe at against the opposition. Tony Blair did the right thing in going to Iraq: It doesnt matter if there were nuclear weapons or not; we rebelled against a mal-formed regieme of stupid dicctator who performed acts of genocide upon his people.

On the other hand, Charles Kennedy doesnt inspire confidence with his mixed up facts either, so Im going to have to say labour.

Hope I kept it civilised.


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Philip
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 06:15
Quote: "
I dont believe michael howard is fit to run our country: He is a untrustworthy person
"


Personally I'd give this statement more weight were it not for the fact that Mr. Blair deliberately distorted the truth to take this country to war against Iraq. Making war is the gravest act any government can undertake. Lieing to justify a war has to be the most dishonest and morally reprehensible thing any Prime Minister of Great Britain has done.

The point is not whether or not the Iraq war was the right thing to do. The point is that Blair deliberately distorted the truth to justify waging it.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 06:38
Besides, Howard seems to be the only person who has admitted to mistakes in the past and learnt from them.

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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 07:17
I'd like to support Philip's earlier comment about people not voting. If you don't vote, you really cannot complain when the government does something you dislike. This may mean choosing the lesser of two evils, or even spoiling your ballot. At least it shows that you have had your say.


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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 07:38
Quite true.

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Philip
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 07:57
I'm giving RobK a pointed look right now because BlueIDE v1.01 just crashed and lost me about 2 hours work.

Ok. I'm now off to post in the BlueIDE thread to explain the bug.

Philip

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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 08:11
Should save regularly...

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