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Geek Culture / New Product Suggestion for TGC

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Philip
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Joined: 15th Jun 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:39
This is a new product suggestion for TGC.

As everyone knows, one of the DBPro's great advantages is that it can deal with shaders. However, despite the excellent discussion in the Ultimate Shader Threads, it is not simple to create a shader that can work in DBPro. To do this you need to learn quite a bit about shaders and also plumb the intricacies of the system. As a result a lot of beginners are either unable or unwilling to try and create and use shaders.

Hence, I'd like to suggest that TGC thinks about perhaps getting 40 standard generic shaders put together all of which work with DBPro. These could be sold as a pack. I've even come up with an imaginative name: ShaderMatter!

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 19:44
That's a real nice idea Philip, perhaps TGC could approach NinjaMatt and Evolved and ask them to put something together with code examples, then pay them royalities.

Something like this could only be considered after the big thingy that's happening with DBPro shader technology, which I can't remember any real details of .


Van-B

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indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 20:11
sounds alright to me i cant try them tho my best vid card is in my g5

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Raven
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 21:17
iirc there was mention of a Shader Material Engine, similar to what Half-Life 2 has on the books.

The framework is already there for the Bump & Shadow Shader routines.

That said can't remember if it was just talk or what, and really we're still waiting for the physics plug-in so... god knows.
Philip
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 22:35
I shall look expectantly at Rich "Me? Sarcastic?" Davey and see whether he posts any comments to this thread.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
David T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:04
This is a great idea.

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You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:05
I would be very interested in such a pack.

Hawkeye
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Location: SC, USA
Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:09
Nifteh idea.. only prob is, I have one of those GeForce 4 MX "Me? Powerful?" cards. Maybe if I buy this, I can presuade my parents to get me a better card

Raven
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:24
You could always ripp out your old one and stick it under your pillow for the NVIDIA Fairy... she's pretty cute, named Dawn and can only run on an FX or above
David T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 03:42
lmao

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You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Cian Rice
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:18
I would love this pack especially if it came with the bloom effect.

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 06:38
OR
they could sell me a great video card for $2 or £1
THEN
come out with such a pack

Digitalmodr
Coder_David
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Philip
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 21:59
Looks like my idea has attracted interest then.

Over to Rich and Rick.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 00:49
Yeah, I'd bite, good idea Philip

Raven
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 00:57
Make a list of what Shaders everyone wants.
David T
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 01:19
The only possible problem would be making sure they work universally, and you'd also get loads of noobs like

Quote: "wtf the shader isn't working i set it on and then whats this about constants how can i have a splinter cell mask thing thx bye"


You'd have to provide really really clear instructions about all the constants, etc

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Raven
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 02:30
Yes, quite.
I was thinking perhaps along the lines of,

• Example Source, and Plug-In Function for each Shader
• Help on the requirements for each Shader
• DXSAS Compatible Versions*
• Tutorial Help for Understanding Fundimentals, Creation, Adaptation, Linking, & Technique Development.
• Shader Variations Compatible for Shader 1.1, 2.0, 3.0*

* For Dark Basic Professional 1.06, and DirectX use.

A package would be more work than just putting together each shader, which creating say 40 would be a little much given the time it takes to develop each one.

Thing is, while I can think of quite a few Shaders. What would be wanted most is what is more important...

Was thinking something along the lines of:

Weather Effects Shader (Snow, Rain, Wind, Heat, Mist)
Fire Effect
Steam/Smoke Effect
Bump/Normal/Para Mapping
Fluid Effect
Cloth Effects Shader ( Denim, Velvet, Leather/PVC, Cotton )
Object-Space Effect ( Reflect, Refract, Fresnel )
Water Effect
Light Effects ( Point / Direction / Omni )
Shadow Effect ( Even though DBP has this, it would make it a more complete package )
Screen-Space Effect ( Motion, Depth of Field, Bloom, HDR )
Vision Effect ( Night, X-Ray, Infrared, Mono, Stereo (Blue/Red 3D Glasses thing) )

I can think of a few more but those would probably be the most useful, wouldn't they?
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 03:37
Sounds good to me.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 04:35
We'd also need HDR/Bloom! I love that effect.

Jeku
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 04:46
I don't know anything about shaders, but I love how, in Half-Life 2, you can look around and some materials (walls and floors usually) have a shiny 'wet' look to them. Almost like the reflection is a big white square that moves with the eye--- too hard to explain.

I also like when the background is reflected somewhat in a blurred out crazy way on the ground. Would that just be a reflection map or is it a shader? I would guess the latter as it seems to be dynamic--- who knows.


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Raven
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 05:06
Quote: "Screen-Space Effect ( Motion, Depth of Field, Bloom, HDR )"


me thinks reading more carefully.

Just for interest. High Definition Range, and Light Bloom are different effects.

Light Bloom is where it appears that high brightness surfaces are glowing, this is quite an unrealistic effect on it's own unless your using a Camera lens.

High Defintion Range, in the truest sense is the ability to display the low-dark colours to the high-bright colours. Given only the GeForce 6 using 64-bit Colour can technically do this, you create the effect by using a Clamp Effect.

As such when your in darker areas you adjust the colour depth range to compensate to see the darker shaders, so when your transitioning to the lighter areas everything seems bright until you adjust to that light level.

Half-Life 2 (updated) and FarCry use this effect very well. A while back I created my own to mimic human eyes better given our eyes actually adjust quite differently to cameras as purple is the dark colour adjustment (something that Carrots have in abundance, which in-fact they used to be before farmers in Denmark started breeding Orange ones because no one wanted to eat something purple hense why they're attributed to being able to see in the dark) and for light areas we see green first.

If done correctly the effect does look truely amazing.

Quote: "I don't know anything about shaders, but I love how, in Half-Life 2, you can look around and some materials (walls and floors usually) have a shiny 'wet' look to them. Almost like the reflection is a big white square that moves with the eye--- too hard to explain."


By product of the cheap & effective Dot3 Cubemapping. In some instances it looks so real it's awesome (like metals), but in others it can spoil the effect (like woods and masonry).

Most of Half-Life 2 effects only work with high-resolution textures. You have the exact same effects in Doom 3, but because they're using 256x256 rather than 1024x1024 texture the difference is just incredible. Try lowering the Texture Quality to Low (256x256) and all of the Shaders really loose thier quality so much.

The wobble effect where the reflection isn't like a pure reflection but appears to curve with surfaces is due to the Reflection/Refraction mapping. When you combine it post-Bump mapping using the Pixel Normal rather than the Vertex Normal, it allows the surface to alter the reflection to warp it around the normalised texture.

The effect is quite good, and if done properly can be quite quick.

Bump Mapping -> Normal Mapping itself is relatively simplistic, given your just offsetting the pixels based on the light index (taken from the normal either vertex or pixel) normalised by the eye position. Then the final result is projected in object space, well you could just you texture space, but it's easier to combine the cubemap in object space.

when your talking about object space this is the area that the object is rendered in, from the eye point of view. You fill in the information just as if it was a 2D Image, but given your working from a real 3D image and data it provides you with the information you need to create the shading, texture, etc...
Chris K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 05:52
I'd love to see a screenshot of that human eye thing. Sounds cool.

I think Jeku is talking about specular lighting.

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