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Geek Culture / Has DBpro lead us to be TOO ambitous?

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zenassem
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Posted: 20th May 2005 07:57
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I am just wondering how you people feel about this.

It seems to me, that with the ease of creating games with DBpro, that the community would be pumping out a larger quantity of:

Quality (but possibly less ambitous), complete, fun games.

I have been around for a little while, and I will be the first to say that there is some truly amazing, talented people here who are coding things far beyond my capabilities. But I wonder if many of us just get caught up in trying to create these epic titles rather than simpler, fun, games because of what DBpro is capable of.

I know I have. And that's part of the reason that I tend to have collections of started programs; but nothing completed under my belt.
Or I tend to write snippets or partial games, and spend time trying to help others. Regardless, I am guilty of not yet producing what I know I am very well capable of.

Please, don't get me wrong. I know there are many here who have produced some amazing work, whether it be games, plug-ins/dll's, editors, engines, tools etc... And I have been impressed more times than I can count. Yet, I still feel that many of us are possibly not producing the games that are at our ability or within a reasonable reach, because we are striving for too high of a standard too soon.

I've seen other communities programming in C++, VB, & Java for instance; that have a large collection of fun, yet simpler game concepts. (Not to say they don't have there share of partial games, sunken dreams, and crap-ware; because they do!)

Am I alone in feeling this way? It's ok to say I am. Because it's possible that I am just frustrated with my own progress.

~zen


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:04 Edited at: 20th May 2005 08:09
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TGC is only trying to make a profit.

I mean it won't work if they put something like this on thier site...

"DarkBASIC pro! A good easy-to-learn programming language! If you're lucky you might actually create something worth while! But don't get your hopes up!"

And true, the reason there aren't as much quality games around is because the really good coders here have crap media. When people have the skill to program but no 3d models, levels, and animation, they often lose hope.

Take a look at the Eternal Destiny project for example. I'm sure John and the team have done some excellent coding for it, but when un-informed people see it's screenshots, they don't like it.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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zenassem
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:13 Edited at: 20th May 2005 08:14
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@Megaton Cat,
Quote: "I mean it won't work if they put something like this on thier site...

"DarkBASIC pro! A good easy-to-learn programming language! If you're lucky you might actually create something worth while! But don't get your hopes up!""


LMAO! Perhaps you will be hired to handle advertising and public relations.

I'm not really blaming TGC. Nor am I concerned about them making a profit. I think they are entitiled to it. And I think they have helped create products that allow bedroom coders to at least have a chance to do some pretty amazing things. I would never expect any language or application, to promise that I would actually produce anything. And the enjoyment I have gotten from DBpro was well worth every penny 10 times over, regardless of whether I have completed a full game or not.

-------------------

But I still wonder whether or not the community as a whole feels a bit pressured to produce at a level beyond their abilities, because of what can be accomplished, or has been accomplished.

~zen


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Baggers
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:34
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I'd definately agree with you, you just have to look at the stereotypical newbie to see that some expect so much for nothing (but thats always the way in life) and hope to make money off their first game or complete a mmorpg.

Im not sure that the problem isnt just people here but the game industry as a whole...We see so many games just churned out even from major producers that lack the ambition and originality of what we would hope for with the tools available today.

Megaton is so right about losing heart due to meadia, im still working on Jazz but it really is hard to get it like i want due to the media. Ive been convinced that style is something that is overlooked in games far too often (viewtiful joe is a great example of a very styalised game) and im dedicated to trying to recreate the style from the original jazz game yet it is so hard without the modeling ability !

My real gripe is with shaders...dont get me wrong i think they are very clever and can look specacular but they are encouraging newbies to wack an effect in which, although looks cool, does not encourage devlopment of original ideas..just a view that looks are everything.
Well thats my 2p worth !

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:41
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Rich, where is your stance on this? We need a very opinionated response in the opposite view.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Raven
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:49
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Yes.

If you look at how it's sold to you... it makes you feel you can accomplish more and easier than is realistically possible.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 20th May 2005 08:54
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Quote: "it makes you feel you can accomplish more and easier than is realistically possible"


I believe that is how all products are sold though. They make you feel like the product is actually useful to the target audience...which in many cases, it is...just not to the extent thought.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Philip
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Posted: 20th May 2005 09:03
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Hence the phrase: "caveat emptor".

Besides there is no problem in having dreams and ambitions. These are important. The point is not to have unrealistic expectations.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
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soapyfish
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Posted: 20th May 2005 09:52
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I'm in the same position, plenty of started projects but nothing finished.

Thanks to the puzzle comp I've realised that great games don't need fancy media, fully interactive worlds, super snazzy efffects or any such tosh. Unfortunately I'm the sort of coder that has a great idea and starts coding straight away. After a week or so I've got my code into a right mess and just tire of my project. I've realised that I won't get my entry into the puzzle comp in time but I'm still going to work on my idea and hopefully release it to the community some time.

The fact is darkBASIC is only simple when compared to other languages. Just because the code is easier to understand doesn't mean corners can be cut. Projects should still be planned out beforhand and people should realise that big games need a lot of patience (I think firewall was something like 2 years in the making, apologies if I'm wrong.)

It's not that people are too ambitious, it's just so easy to get the basics of a game made (simple character movement etc) that they rush ahead with that before planning out what they'll do afterwards.





Formely play2kill
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Raven
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Posted: 20th May 2005 10:18
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Quote: "Hence the phrase: "caveat emptor"."


For those of us who don't know Latin that well?

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 20th May 2005 10:23
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Let the buyer be ware?


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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zenassem
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Posted: 20th May 2005 10:37
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I guess my point was...

I wonder how many more quality, fun, games we would see being completed, if our ambitions weren't so high?

I do realize that completed games is not the whole point to being involved with DBC/DBP (it's not a sweatshop)! It is enjoyable to explore the more complex ideas, and so for some; it may be more important to challenge themselves to achieve certain tasks, rather than producing a finished product. It's more of an intellectual pursuit than it is money to pay the bills.

But I just wasn't sure if I was alone in feeling a little less than Uber-Productive around here. So thanks for being honest and open in sharing your feelings on this.

~zen


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indi
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Posted: 20th May 2005 12:14
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I had greater expectations for what my largest game would shape up like and I learnt many mistakes the hardway, but i guess thats the best way. I realised my "Scope creep" was in the heavens many times.
Ive managed to restart my first inspiration after leaving it for a while as i smelt a burn out on the horizon.

I concurr regarding many started projects and pre thought to a project. It makes so much sense to not even bother with starting a project until you know all the commands or you find yourself rewriting things in different ways with more knowledge.

Its so easy to get excited over a handfull of commands that make some potential look really great that you want to carry it into a full fledged game, and thats where the imagination fireball starts to grow until its flooding the sky with hot ideas.

The other component to this game development madness is when you get stuck on a command or a function or a theory. IT can drive you nuts and can bring a projec to a screaming hault. maybe we need a forum area for stalled project help or a place to get it restarted. that would improve the game completion factor around here. perhaps a game graveyard, where people can get a copy of a game thats half finished and rework it perhaps>?. it would be a lot of webspace with all the media etc.. so its probably not feasible.

DBP has the potential to create standard librarys for each kind of game. imagine a series of 2d function that produce effects for images and or text. including that to your project would improve the overall look and could create a similarity with its usage across games but some would be tweaked well and modified.

Ive cut my game down heaps due to less time and practical managability of the project, but ive got another spark to keep trying.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
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Deep Thought
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Posted: 20th May 2005 12:31
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Hi folks, just read around this thread with interest. As I'm a total beginner perhaps an 'outsider' perspective may be of interest. I purchased DBPro and Gamespace 1.6 specifically because the advert blurb says how really easy it is to make games and models in these two packages respectively. Also, how its a snip to put your fantastic GS model into your quickly rustled up DBPro 'world' and have a game ready in practically minutes. Well, ok maybe I exagerate a little, but that how it feels reading the write ups. Then when you start reading forums like these in detail you find that people are always having show stopping problems getting a model to import or work properly in some sense or other. Now, as an avid gamer for many years, I can tell you that what we actually want is to be able to make an environment that may be land, sea, sky, space or interior; make a model or two and get that model to appear in the environment then make the model move about and behave according to rules that we have chosen. (and its not helpful to newbies to get all jargonesque and pedantic about the meanings of 'map' 'world' 'terrain' 'skybox/sphere' etc). For a gamer, the coding and programming are really just a means to an end - so we can have the game we want, the way we want it, featuring the characters we want in the surroundings we want. Ironically, this is why the simple click and drag together packages are inadequate - yes, you can get a game of sorts up and running quickly - but when you've been immersed in modern PS2 game play there no point at all in making somthing that looks 20 years old - even if you do get a buzz from having created it youreself. No. What we need is the principle of a click together package, but then make every aspect of its content adjustable in detail both graphically and behavoirally (eg: npc/enemy AI). Maybe, the whole development scene is just too 'undeveloped' for the type and level of game creation that normal game players need. Perhaps a further generation language/ user interface is needed, so you can click/drag and menu select your requirements and let the pc write the code. I know we are some way there for example in a terrain modeller you click a hill and raise it up and presto, a mountain - imagine having to actually code that transformation manually! Ok, tell you what - maybe I just need to be in stasis for about 50 years. When I emerge you can just speak to your pc and adjust the programme - "computer, make sight detection range 50 meters, increase height of jump to 1 meter, colour her shoes red, darker, ok". Startrek holodeck? Seriously and back to the point of the discussion, yes the adverts for all these development (incl modelling etc) packages are somewhat misleading and make it look/sound much easier than it is. I knew I'd have to learn DBPro fundamentals first to make any game, but it sounds like it doesn't matter how much effort I'm prepared to put in - the reality is that creating even one level similar to a modern style console game will be practically impossible. Shame. So, what do I realistically want to be able to do today, well - make buildings and interiors in 'Cartography Shop', exactly as I imagine them, put the buildings on a terrain/land made in 'Geoscape 3D' with a great sky made in 'Sky matter' (I think), Populate this new world with models of people and vehicles etc that I've made in 'Game Space' and glue the whole lot together into one loadable package using DB Pro. I think the animations are created in GS and DBPro informs the model of which of its preset animations to use depending on its interaction with other models or the player's controlled character - am I right? Is this workable? Is this the way game creation is meant to work? Or would this mishmash of different products just crash into a great big cyber soup of unresolvable conflicts?...........DT
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Jess T
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Posted: 20th May 2005 14:47
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Zen,
Quote: "It is enjoyable to explore the more complex ideas, and so for some; it may be more important to challenge themselves to achieve certain tasks, rather than producing a finished product. It's more of an intellectual pursuit than it is money to pay the bills."


I couldn't have explained my own position better if I'd tried...

Personally, being too ambitious was a good thing. I wanted to make a you-beaut editor that generated mesh's on the fly ( pretty ambitous, eh? ), which meant I needed to know how to create splines for curved meshes, and how to actually make meshes. It resulted in me challenge myself with creating splines, going out and researching it, trial and erroring it, then finally getting to work.
Once I got it to work, I did some mesh stuff. Got that mostly working, and I haven't touched the project since ( about 6 months now ).

Just knowing that I accomplished it, and learning those techniques are what I'm after.
Personally, I haven't completed ( let-alone released ) a single game, but instead have just built up a massive library of knowledge and code over the last few years.

It's great, and personally I find it not so much "rewarding", but rather more "enjoyable", to do these sorts of things rather than complete a game

Jess.


Team EOD :: All-Round Nice Guy
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Delfir
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Posted: 20th May 2005 15:11
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wow, Zen.

I knew there was a problem with how I developed games but I could never put my finger on it. It is because my ambitions are much too high. That explains all my unfinished projects. Now that I have identified the problem, maybe I can finish more games.

I mean, I don't plan or do anything. I get an inspirational idea for an extremely complex game that I don't have any idea how I am going to make, and then I just start coding, it gets messy, I say, "What the hell? This is all too confusing. Yea, this wont' work" Then I move on to the next cocky project that ends up as pages of miscillaneous code and wasted hours of my life floating around in my computer's harddrive. My next project will be simpler, I will plan out everything to avoid messy code and overwhelmment, and it will be fun. Heck, it might be on the next newsletter.

Legendary>Heroic>Normal>Easy
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th May 2005 16:09
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I think part of it stems from the ads as mentioned (but hey, we've just got to be smart buyers), and part of it comes from the intimidation you feel as a newbie. Personally, I'm out to make a significant dent in the history of the world, and it would be pretty cool if I could accomplish that through the game development medium. Being a newbie, poking around on the newcomer and darkbasic boards, and every once in a while seeing the awesomeness that was cooked up by somebody in the WIP board is rather intimidating, and you feel pressured to contribute something to the community to raise your online social status, kind of like hacker culture with peer pressure.

My project was too ambitious, it was a frickin huge FPS engine. I'd write the engine, then build a campaign around it, and include tools for creating new scenarios, and possibly leasing the source for a few bucks. I tried coding stuff on the spot, no planning whatsoever, and of course that killed me. Then I started to plan, but in planning I was attacked by scope creep, and I was left to forget most of what I had learned about DB because I spent so much time in Notepad writing down how stuff was going to be done and never actually doing any of it.
Several small programs later I'm thinking of a much simpler game, still complex enough to be interesting, but not relying on development of cutting edge optimized, portable and reusable technology.

Crazy Donut Productions
Current Project: A Redneck game
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David R
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Posted: 20th May 2005 16:53 Edited at: 20th May 2005 16:54
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Being crap at art, I usually just assume the role of "Create carp art and dont show anyone my game".

However, my very high ambitious projects (namely my RTS/RPG Dream::Catcher) pushed me to create something that would even the level on current games, and stand-out aswell. In this way, it has been useful ; I'm creating art I wouldn't of dreamed of creating 2 years ago. My game is already looking beautiful, and Its only been in development for 4 weeks

(See attached picture for example)

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]

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David T
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Posted: 20th May 2005 18:11
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The problem with me is small games often grow into large epic titles

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
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BatVink
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Posted: 20th May 2005 22:54
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Quote: "I wonder how many more quality, fun, games we would see being completed, if our ambitions weren't so high?"

Quote: "The problem with me is small games often grow into large epic titles"


It is very important to ensure you stick to "V1.0". I get many, many new ideas as I code. I put 95% of them on the "V2" wishlist. About 5% make it into V1.0.

Without this kind of control, you will never finish. And once you have V1.0 done, V2.0 will be easier to handle, and you will find that the wishlist is very different from how it first started. You will find yourself saying "Did I really think that was a good idea!?!"

BatVink
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Peter H
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Posted: 20th May 2005 23:18 Edited at: 20th May 2005 23:36
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You guys may be having problems with ambition...but i certainly am not.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=53918&b=5


[edit] BTW lots of you guys have mentioned planning...and i agree that is a huge part in making a complete game...you have to plan out every little detail of how you want everything to work. before you write a single line of code. (unless you are writing it to make sure say that you can use shaders or something in your project...but in any-case you shouldn't use that code in your project)

I think this is a area majorly overlooked in this community so to give ya'll one perspective on doing this i've been planning (there it is again) on releasing a Flow-Chart tutorial...lots of ya'll (especially the ones who've coded in other languages) probably already know how to use flow charts...but this will make sure that everybody knows...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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flibX0r
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Posted: 20th May 2005 23:52
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@Deep Thought

would you like to buy a '\n' character?



You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 20th May 2005 23:54 Edited at: 21st May 2005 00:13
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Zen,

First let me say welcome back Didn't know you had returned. I don't know if you know it or not but just prior to your departure from these forums last year you touched-off an epic project that ultimately ended up in failure, although I am not exactly sure that its demise was totally due to the goal being too lofty.

Here's the original thread by Zen that sparked the DarkTOPIA project:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=35432&b=2

You can read about the rise and fall of DarkTOPIA here:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=36335&b=8

Glad to see you are OK Zen
CR

PS - This project falling thru, combined with a chain of events that occurred here, combined with a few ongoing issues I had with dbp itself, I decided to not work in DBP anymore and explore other options. I do follow how dbp is progressing as a devel language, and maybe one day I can begin using it again, maybe not - remains to be seen. Good luck to all of you with your endeavours.

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David R
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Posted: 21st May 2005 01:07
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Quote: "would you like to buy a '\n' character?
"


How much?

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 21st May 2005 01:34
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We aim above the mark, to hit the mark.

Dumbo and Cool - DEFINATELY coming July 31st.
Also in development: Oddworld RTS, A Wonderful Thing and Scarecrow
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 21st May 2005 01:37
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@Deep Thought

Good game creation needs to be the way it is - click and drag just won't do it, full stop.

Coding - the hard way, is the right way.

Dumbo and Cool - DEFINATELY coming July 31st.
Also in development: Oddworld RTS, A Wonderful Thing and Scarecrow
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David T
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Posted: 21st May 2005 02:14
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I'm not the "lets make a minigame" type person. When I want to make it game, it always has to be big. Grr.

Why can't I just be satisfied with some sort of puzzle game

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
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flibX0r
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Posted: 21st May 2005 02:50
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Quote: "How much?"


a byte



You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
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Raven
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Posted: 21st May 2005 02:53
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Quote: "Why can't I just be satisfied with some sort of puzzle game"


It's easy to combine both simple puzzle, with BIG thinking.
Should be able to show rather than explain what I mean soon, but creating a game can often spiral out of control unless you smack it in the knees before running wild.

Each developer often will try to strive to be different in some way, those differences if left unchecked can really snowball quickly. Causing what should've been a few days work, to a few months.

When development time get too long given most of us do this just for fun, means : poof : the urge to develop them is gone. Cause like playing the games, we'll eventually get bored of the idea.

Working in large development teams in companies, you'd think the atmosphere of doing the same game for 2years, with the same people, with a pretty generic standard, and sometimes even the same damn sequals over and over can get boring and tiring quicker.

Thing is with a physical team you can keep everything interesting, you seeing results daily rather than weekly or monthly. Everything feels like it moves quicker and with feedback from people instantly you can adapt. Online teams and particularly Solo developers don't usually have this.. eventually you will think 'god i need a break', when that happens this is often a project killer moment without even realising it.

The only way to ever get something from Idea -> Code -> Release is just to take it step-by-step. We all know this deep down, and know that we should be carefully taking our time at each point.

Yet we want to see instant results, and then after we see those results we think bigger because it was quick. Only to figure out that we don't actually have the know-how to achieve the bigger idea, and rather than going back to the original idea we spend several weeks on the impossible idea before giving up.

Heh. Tis a very fickle thing. With Dark Basic Professional we're seeing less and less projects compared to Dark Basic because the language itself doesn't quite work and react how we expect it to. Things become more complicated for no good reason and people burn out quicker.

just my view on the community as-is.

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David T
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Posted: 21st May 2005 03:18
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I'd love to work in a game dev team - being able to leave modelling and media to people who know best, and being able to focus entirely on what you're interested in without having to force yourself to write code for the boring things

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
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zenassem
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Posted: 21st May 2005 06:55
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@cattlerustler,

Hey good to seey hear from you. I posted a lengthy appology/explanation upon my return a few weeks ago. I'll have to find the thread. I was asking about you as well, because I knew that I had let you down. I still feel bad about that. I'll send you a personal e-mail.

=======================================
BTW, I am still waiting for my CPAP machine to treat my sleep apnea. The prescription has been written, although it was first sent to a homecare facility that doesn't except my insurance. (Great Healthcare System we have); so that tied up the process for about a week 1/2 now. Hopefully I will have my machine next week. So I am still suffering with chronic fatigue every day.

I did recieve a short form report of my first night sleep study. As it turns out I experienced an apnea/hypopnea: 169 times over the course of 5.6 hours. That works out to 30.3 per hour. Although I slept for 86.1% of the time they were monitoring, I never entered REM sleep, and my Oxygen saturation (which should be at 96-100%) dropped well below 80%. So basically I never get rest, and I am oxygen deprived during my sleep. I'll find out more details of the report on May 27th.

Thanks,

~zen
I too have found myself trying to do to much too soon. Whoever posted about keeping vers 1.0 reasonable made some good points, and I think I am going to try to follow them.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 21st May 2005 08:53
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@zen,

no need for apologies, life happens.
glad you're ok and will be able to get some rest when you sleep

peace

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STALKER
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Posted: 21st May 2005 18:32
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Just wait. By Chistmas 2006, There WILL be a complete game. You will see!

>>>>>>>>>>>MIRAGE STUDIOS<<<<<<<<<<<
>>MEDIEVAL CARNIVAL<->GLADIATOR ARENA<<
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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd May 2005 01:04
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Quote: "I'd love to work in a game dev team - being able to leave modelling and media to people who know best, and being able to focus entirely on what you're interested in without having to force yourself to write code for the boring things"


Totally agree with that. I myself want to move more into graphics(2d,3D,animation,etc.) and sound/music. There are a few problems to overcome for myself though. Someday I'd like to start my own development team, the trouble is finding good team members. The Darktopia team was by far the best team I'd worked with, though the project has come to a stopping point.

As for the original topic, I don't think DBP has lead us to become to ambitious, I think we're just about where we need to be.

Summer is coming soon though, so I'll finally be able to get some time to sit down and start making a game.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
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robo cat
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Location: In a cat litter tray, near you...
Posted: 22nd May 2005 02:22
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I think its hard to keep a project simple. DBPro allows simple games to be made really quickly. This means that the basic gameplay (walking / collision) will be done in the matter of a couple of hours. That done so quickly its all too tempting to add something a little more ambitious. If its not too ambitious it will be again done in a couple of hours. So you try something even more ambitious. This keeps on happening until you realise your project (after say a week) has stuff to implement that is seemingly insane for a one man (or a small group of three) to complete. My now online survival horror is a prime example. It started as a little offline FPS using simple weaponry such as a cross which slows down the speed of all enemies. The enemies were only meant to walk towards you at a fixed rate. There were going to be loading doors like in Resi so the engine is simpler. That doesn't sound too complex and it wasn't. Within a few days much of it was done. However, the ease of DBPro made me decided to have enemies path find, then I added enemies tripping up. It had been made a little more ambitious. Then I again fell into the trap of complicating things again - making it online. I had no idea how to make an online game and never had any intention of the game being online but the speed at which it was progressing (thanks to DBPro) made me set my sights a little higher. Not content with that only taking a month. I fell into the trap of removing the loading doors. Feature after feature kept coming and now I'm left trying to make a Spore like animation system where it works out how to climb buildings and swing along the rafters of a barn. This is completely changed from the original concept which if I'd stuck to there would be a finished game by now! The only problem is that the project became too ambitious and doesn't look likely to be up for Beta till half way through the Summer! Of course, chances are it will, get more and more ambitious until it becomes impossible to accomplish (it may well be at that state now). So, I must agree that DBPro projects are TOO ambitious even if they aren't at the start!

Simple... yet fun!
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Raven
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 22nd May 2005 04:13
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Quote: "Just wait. By Chistmas 2006, There WILL be a complete game. You will see!"


there are already complete games.. if people have seen them, heard of them, or played them. is probably a more debatable fact.

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Briere
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Location: Amherst New York, United States
Posted: 22nd May 2005 04:22 Edited at: 22nd May 2005 04:25
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ive only been programming since septmeber and i have 2 completed projects, and now im working on my 1st DB project. The ones I have completed are nothing revolutionary, a telnet communication hub and a Chat program. But my chat program can support multiple users, 255 i think it is, and my server has a control pannel where I can "recyle" the server, send warning messages, ban people and it has a list of everyone who is one

here is an old photo of it during beta testing.

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fog
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Location: Newcastle, England
Posted: 22nd May 2005 05:52
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Good topic zen

Here's my thoughts for what its worth....

I know exactly where you're coming from but the main problem isn't DB or people being too ambitious, but people being unrealistic....there's a subtle difference.

It is possible, with time and a good sized team, to create very ambitious projects in DBPro but is that realistic?

I know my time is limited so my projects are necessarily simpler than most of you guys are attempting.

Also planning wise I only ever produce one concept screen in Paintshop (I should post the DUO one some day and give everyone a laugh ). No flow charts or detailed plans. I keep a notepad file in each project directory and jot any ideas I have in that, deleting them as they are included and adding new ones as I think of them.

Yeah my projects are pretty basic so planning isn't as important but for me that would kill the creative process. Half the attraction is the way projects evolve as they progress and new features are thought up. If I was tied to a detailed design doc I'd lose interest pretty quickly.

So yes, be as ambitious as you want but be realistic.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 23rd May 2005 07:22 Edited at: 23rd May 2005 07:23
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@zenassem

Glad to see you're back. I don't visit here very often anymore since my new job has me working a lot, but there was an old topic that you started way back when and I was wondering if you would be interested in finishing it with me.

2D Principles with DB/DBpro Tutorial Part I http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=34076&b=4

If you have the time to start working on it, I could see if I could clean up some of my old code and contribute when I get the time.
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zenassem
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Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 23rd May 2005 08:19
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@neophyte,

Yes I would like to finish it.

I think I worked myself into a corner when I attempted to code the 2d level editor, a little too early on, and trying to keep versions for DBC and DBpro at the same completion rate. Although they are similar, I got myself confused when I ran into seperate issues with both at the same time. What a headache. Plus, I think skeletor did a better job with his editor. So I will take a look at the thread and see how I can salvage it. If you have any ideas or would like to talk about it please e-mail me.

Thanks.

Zenassem

@Fog,
Thanks for sharing your experience and methods. I would definately like to hear more from you, on how you keep your projects organized and focused. Very interesting and important, yet quite easily overlooked. Anything you can share with us about completing projects will surely help the community.

~zen


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Aoneweb
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posted: 23rd May 2005 10:21
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Quote: "Has DBpro lead us to be TOO ambitous?"

Can someone be too ambitious, I mean we are told to never stop trying to get to the top, I think DBpro allows you to be as ambitious as you allow yourself to be, I dont think TGC set out to deceive anyone.

Toshiba Sattelite, 3.2Ghz,ATI Radeon 9000 IGP 128mb, 1.2gig of Ram, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
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Redmotion
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Location: Mmm mmm.. Marmite
Posted: 24th May 2005 01:41
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You have to consider YOURSELF as part of the toolset. Know your limitations, design games that you CAN create (or just design big games on paper - or create stills to put in a portfolio) - not some MMORPG that would take a team of 50, three years to make! (Who would play that anyway? - Why not try a two player game? with a split screen?) If u cant animate, design a game that doesn't need it. If you can't program complex maths, avoid games that will need it - or rip it from the codebase!! Or maybe just do something that will break you in slowly, allowing you to build up to more complex stuff.

PROJECTS:
All unfinished - to be released as retro titles in 5 years time.
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Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 24th May 2005 03:35
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I now know the 3 secrets of Level Design.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 24th May 2005 03:52
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Quote: "Can someone be too ambitious?"


Have you even heard of MacBeth?


Dumbo and Cool - DEFINATELY coming July 31st.
Also in development: Oddworld RTS, A Wonderful Thing and Scarecrow
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Plugged
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Location: Hertfordshire
Posted: 24th May 2005 19:26
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I totally understand your points about media, just a sec, yep just counted and currently I have about 26 engines on my computer. All, you guess it, stopped because of media. That’s why what I have been doing lately is asking people for their game ideas and I make the game engine for them and then give in back for them to put in the media.

But I have to admit in my more newbie days I suffered from being too ambitious. Any one remember the Sorus (an rpg with battles and all), it was quite good and I might still release the code, but any none coder would not give it a second look, "I mean the main character is only a skeleton" would probably be the first thing they say.

This may seem a simple, or stupid , solution but surly on the other side, the modeller and media artist, might have the same problem, they don’t know what to do, and aim for really high poly and never finish. If this is so then why don't we find a common forum to both artists and coders and link them up.

cheers
Plugged


Work Hard; Play Harder ;
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Van B
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Posted: 24th May 2005 20:19
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I'm not sure that I'm too ambitious, I find that time is the major enemy - I mean it takes years to learn modelling properly, and texturing too, so the time we get to spend learning cuts into the time we spend coding. Nowadays I'm not sure which eats more of my time, I like to do a bit of art then code later when it's nice and quiet. For example, I had to design, model, texture and code an hourglass in DBPro, like a working model that would show the remaining time in a game. Anyhoo, I did the whole shebang in one night, but I only spent about 45 minutes coding, compared to about 4 hours to do everything else. Personally I see getting it all done in 1 night as the important thing rather than how long each component takes, but it's important to set that realistic goal straight from the start - if you have spare time later then that's the time to waste.

Say to yourself, tonight Mathiew I will be mostly doing 'whatever', and stick to it, don't let yourself get distracted until you have the first hurdle (untextured mesh) in the bag. I would usually decide on what I wanted done and if your realistic you'll find that once it's done you have time to develop other ideas.

I would say my coding style has changed a great deal, still organic but I'm concentrating on engines more and more - habits I've learned from working on apps have spilled over. Probably the biggest and most beneficial switch I made was F'Tang (my script system from vanmesh), I use ascii formats for levels, and each piece of information is stored like a function, and parsed later - this affords me the luxury of changing file formats really easily, and using a single loading function for every home-grown file. Things like this make it possible to engineer file formats in minutes that are more adaptable than any other style, ideal for developing game systems.

The thing is though, it should be easier to throw game ideas together, a lot of people just need to be able to furnish a terrain with objects and detect collision on them to get started. Once you can run around a level the AI and collision coding is approachable, until you get to that stage any project will drag on and on, and you will get sick of it.


Van-B

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