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Geek Culture / New 3D Technology...

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 08:01
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I'd say this video speaks for itself:

http://www.demo.com/demo/demonstrators/2004/page773-697045.html


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th May 2005 08:49
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All I see is a black screen.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 08:50
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Quote: " All I see is a black screen."


Upgrade your computer / download WMP ?


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Chenak
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Posted: 29th May 2005 08:59
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I'll believe it when i see it, a video like that can be faked pretty easily
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Neofish
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Posted: 29th May 2005 09:06 Edited at: 29th May 2005 09:07
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Looks great apart from when it buggers up a little

EDIT: in front of a live audience? It IS faked...the things aren't there, but it's faked in real time

Pi = 8
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 29th May 2005 09:14
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Uh, what? It just looks like they superimposed 3D images in real time over camera footage. Hardly new 3D technology.

More tea Vicar?
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 09:16
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Notice how the 3D "images" can interact with the real invironment? It can collide with real objects, instead over going through an object it can successfully travel over it. Things like that make it cool to me


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th May 2005 10:03
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Just saw it.

Don't really see what the big deal is. Just looks like the image was placed over the video...

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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zenassem
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Posted: 29th May 2005 10:23
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I think that the deal is that it's not jus an image placed over a video, but rather the 3d model can interact with the video environment ie. collisions.

I think it's pretty cool if it's true.

http://www.mod2software.com
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 10:52
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From everything I read about it, it is very much true. Like they said it is already be used in practical applications.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th May 2005 11:17
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I understand what it is. I'm just saying it doesn't look very impresive in video form. If I could see it done or do it in person, that would be cool.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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zenassem
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Posted: 29th May 2005 11:40
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I see what your saying Megaton Cat. I would like to get my hands on technology like that as well. It was hard for me to pick up on what was going on at first. A hands on demonstration is a must. Even getting to toy with an end-prodcut app.

~zen

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Dave J
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Posted: 29th May 2005 12:31
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The only thing it interacted with was his hand, and even then it didn't work properly with his other hand.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 13:31
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The little Hummer driving over one of the objects on the table? Did you even watch the whole thing?


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Dave J
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Posted: 29th May 2005 13:41 Edited at: 29th May 2005 13:44
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Weren't those objects also loaded in 3D?


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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 29th May 2005 14:01
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The objects on the table were real object. The ruins and such were actual real objects. The hummer was loaded in 3d.


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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 29th May 2005 14:12
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looks awesome, i dont think theyd fake something like that

Video games…they take you places unreachable, unfeasible. Putting you in the book...putting you in the movie...putting you in a world, that before could only be imagined. expage.com/piratesmainpage.
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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 19:30
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The technology isn't new, but I've not seen it working that well on a stardard application system.

Before when I say it at Siggraph 4years ago, they were running it on a computer that was effectively 3x more powerful than the PS3 is. So the practical use was almost non-existant.

This version isn't quite as good and the way it works is slightly different. They're using Image based depth perception, using the Brightness of an image to calculate the light from 3 angles.

What we were shown at siggraph used a 3D Radar System, similar to what the Army use for creating real-time heightmaps of terrain.

If you notice during the video the Hummer dips when it goes behind the view into a shadowed patch of the table. Obviously this is a drawback of the technology.

The same goes for the video of that lass whoe was in the helicopter.

Most of this isn't beyond what you can do with Sofdec which is capable of outputting a depth channel.

In 3D games this means you can render out a room as a movie, then use that information to render it in Camera-Eye based 3D allowing the real 3D Scene to interact with it as if it was 3D too.

Resident Evil for example makes use of this technology.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th May 2005 19:33
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Quote: "Notice how the 3D "images" can interact with the real invironment? It can collide with real objects, instead over going through an object it can successfully travel over it. Things like that make it cool to me "
Yes it did. But obviously they had to load the locations and object sizes in first. It didn't interact with the audience, just flew over their heads. Again, just programming of the size and shape of the room. No big deal. What would blow me away would be if the system could automatically scan and record the size and location of all objects in the room, as well as the room size and shape. Then interact with that. Now that would be amazingly impressive. I mean seriously. Would then be uber cool if it could analyse solid real objects on the fly, so you could, in theory, have a race between a real remote control car, and a fake one. Allowing collisions and everything (although the real car would have to respond to the fake one too - complicated).

The most impressive thing for me is that the program obviously adjusted to the camera angle and position. So it didn't matter what the camera was looking at, the 3D objects def. still knew where the real objects were. And at what angle they were now, and what size they were now (and what size and angle the 3D objects should be). Pretty cute. But hardly mind blowing stuff.

Saying that, they could have programmed it to only pick up on the approx colour of the table. All objects on it were a different colour. And the copter didn't need to interact with anything as it just flew around. And the main object on the table was turned into a 3D object anyway (the castle).

Just saying they did the presentation in a way that made you think it could be done easily by a complete novice wanting to do a business presentation. I'm just saying that unless it can analyse a room automatically, then they hid quite a lot of the setup.

Cheers

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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 19:38
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Well generally no not impressive for the most part, but the HDRI lighting on the Helicopter was.

That said your right, it could've been pre-programmed.

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EddieB
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Posted: 29th May 2005 19:39
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Yeh, That was a bit confusing when the hummer slid of that thing he was "holding" lol

They could of plotted points and collision etc.

I was watching something on TV the other night and it was about 3D, But they actually showed the audience. It was projected by mirrors etc and allot of other stuff

_ Eddie
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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th May 2005 20:42
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Yeah, it was like when I first did Robotics in Uni. Was most depressed about the amount of setup that was required. Even with sensors (which were slow as hell at the time) you had to setup table and object size, position, etc etc etc. Yawnville. Took a team of 5 of us about a week to program the damn thing to do a simple stacking effort. And that was with a £50k Puma robot at the time, using nice easy Puma basic if I remember rightly.

Hmmm. Radar technology though? That would be really impressive. Esp. if it was all automatic and could work out everything for you. Obviously you would need the camera to be specially made to synch with the radar system, but would be neat. I could see how it could work, but for the useage he was talking about (management meeting presentations and the like) then I would bet you would still need to have a team of techies to set things up. For example how does it know if the chair is supposed to be part of the environment or not, for example. Probably pretty straightforward for a techy to setup the parameters of the world, but cannot see Mr Business getting down lower than "So I hold this wand thingy.. right...". Would be well cool to use radar to get the initial settings though. Can then use this to fine tune things. Surely wouldn't need to be much more complicated than for it to know that at point ABC there is an object of dimensions DEF. Plonk a "virtual" collision cube there methinks. Will do for simple efforts. Pixel perfect collision might be a bitch mind

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th May 2005 20:47 Edited at: 29th May 2005 20:48
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Just thought. Wouldn't it be great if we could all have sci-fi style LCD panels over our eyes? Neuromancertastic, but if you could tie in the above technology with the automatic radar stuff, and have some *serious* AI to work things out, then you could, sort-of-technically, have a "real" view of fake objects. So you wouldn't need a screen, it would happen before you. Couple that with controls in your touch and sensory receptors and you could essentially create real fake objects. After all what is real is whatever you percieve really.... Would be cool though eh?

Cheers

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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 21:00
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Yeah i think it was Radar, might've been Sonar or something.. can't remember exactly, I just know they had 3 of these long beam things setup across the stage that every .25 second would update the 3D heightmap from each direction.

It'd then construct a collision space based on those 3 images, allowing them to seemlessly integrate 3D with the environment around. It wouldn't have allowed for holding items without some sensor, but it had this demo of a car driving up to the guys hand and hitting it then bouncing off.

Was being used to show Maya's new "Filmgate" technology that allowed seemless interaction of 3D and 2D. Was used in the TV Series Dinotopia if you remember that.

As for the LCD thing, I think you could probably use the IBM Backpad to do that. They have this really neat eye-patch LCD screen that's transparent, so you can see what's going on around you and focus on the screen. Had a little keyboard that attached to your wrist as well as a thumb based mouse. Snazzy little machines, but until they get lighter and longer lasting not really practical yet.

I think that would be awesome to make some sorta game that uses that technology, so it like scanned out in-front of you to get a depth map and then had creatures jump out at you. See people walking around thier garden with a laser tag gun screaming things at the screen.

Virtual Counter-Strike and such HAHA

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th May 2005 22:50
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Quote: "they were running it on a computer that was effectively 3x more powerful than the PS3"


Where might I be able to get this computer?

(4 years ago too? Wow)

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:00
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Quote: "Where might I be able to get this computer?"


Try contacting IBM for a custom solution
God knows how much it'd cost, but R&D companies aren't exactly under-funded.

Also wouldn't expect to be able to have taken it home in the back of ya car

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Damokles
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:06
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Quote: "Where might I be able to get this computer?"


How much are you ready to pay for it ?

- Mind the gap -
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:06
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Crap sticks.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:12 Edited at: 29th May 2005 23:13
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Yeah I was going to say. We used to have a Sun mainframe in our offices about a decade ago. Was about the size of a freezer. Our old Data General Aviions are about the same size, and even our newer, much faster, IBM solutions are fridge size (half a freezer).

I once went for an interview with the Sonar division of a major defence contracter (think it was Marconi, but can't honestly remember now). Was all to do with subs and the like. After the official secrets act bit I managed to completely fail the tests (1st question got my brain in a never ending loop type situation for half an hour, where each question should take 30 secs ). Never any good at those things...

Would be tops if you could have the whole thing built into something like a contact lens that then wirelessly connected to a central computer. Would then definitely be virtual counter strike. Or just do something funky, like turn your whole world into Tron. Wouldn't then need a central server as you aren't playing an interactive game with other people. Have, say, your iPod rEAlity (TM) on your waist processing the whole world around you using radar/ sonar, and on the fly turning it all into Tron. Cool.... Or South Park. Could have your fat mate look like Cartman Respect my authority

Cheers

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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:13 Edited at: 29th May 2005 23:16
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Technically speaking, yeah it's just a case of money.
As you can (for all intended purposes) link together an unlimited amount of Server Racks to get a ridiculous processing power.

I mean if you think about it.. say you have a Dual Xeon 3.2GHz Blade Stack with 20 Blades (standard mini-stack size used by small businesses) and you have effectively 25 TeraFlops processing power.

As you can technically have up to 255 Blades Per Stack, plus up to 4million Stacks Per Farm, which can in turn be linked to 4million Farms; well you can just imagine the processing power available to you.

But god knows the cost. (or space.. or power requirements haha)

"fat mate look like cartman." <- hahaa!
have a mate who used to look just like Cartman. when we had a school trip to france (skiing) he was decked out in all the snow gear looked just like him.

but that said this was before South Park came out, so we used to call him Mich ^_^ (after the Michelin Man heh)

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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:17
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Yeah precisely. Just keep on adding. One of our biggest clients uses an IBM with something like 20 processors and 20gb of memory. When it was installed (about 5 years ago) it was pretty cutting edge for our area of the market (travel), which still mainly relies on Teletext type terminals (ViewData). ie. we don't need *loads* of processing power, just *storage space*. Was a simple (but expensive) upgrade from an old DG Aviion with only a quad processor. When they upgrade again (probably a year or so) then should be well powerful. Heh, when they had the upgrade, one multithreaded overnight process went from 9 hours to 20 minutes. Nice.

Cheers

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Raven
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Posted: 29th May 2005 23:30
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Yeah, it's still quite amazing to me how far we've come powerwise over the last decade.

I mean back in 1991 when Luxo Jnr was rendered, it took a computer farm which had a combined 16 processors and 4GB Ram (which was a lot back then) 75 hours to render each frame at 320x240

In 2001 NVIDIA unvieled thier GeForce 3 Card, which had 64MB rendering Luxo Jnr with Raytracing at 1024x768@60Hz

You think that they've gone from needing a room full of computer to something that today would be able to go in to a Cellphone (the GoForce 3D is AS powerful as the GeForce 3) .. it's just remarkable.

I'm looking forward to next year and being able to use these new PowerPC Processors as well as the new GeForce RS for my rendering needs.

Right now I have a Server (Quad Processor) Opteron System, that while getting on a bit now renders out scenes of 250million polygons with full Renderman shader scripts in around an hour at 16:9 (2x1k) Square.

Yet with the Playstation 3, if what they've claimed the capabilities is true.. I would be able to render the same scene in under a matter of 2-3minutes, if that.

I can't wait to see what Render Farms will be like next year. Even back in 2001 (when I bought the machine) you have to render out frames in layers with cutting down detail that is rendered out via a Nurbs Cage for the smoothness. Simply because doing all that data at once would take several times longer. Especially particle effects like smoke, would be an entirely new scene with references.

Yet with the new power becomming available there is a chance that we might be able to realistically simulate light on far more than just 15,000 photons per pass at a reasonable rendering speed. Even see the ability if you don't like the output to go back and sort out the scene again for a retake.

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Damokles
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Posted: 30th May 2005 00:20
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Well, it's still far away of a real advanced 3D technology : Holodecks !


Mostly going with photons for the visualisation and magnetic fields to tocuh what you see.

- Mind the gap -
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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2005 01:27
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Heh. Obvious next step in the conversation I suppose. Ramp it up and allow the changing of human memory. Simply change the last few minutes memory to make you remember being in the Holodeck and everything was amazing. After all reality is *really* all about your memories. Whatever you remember was real to you. Tie in everybodies memory into one big server that controls *everything* and we can go matrixtastic. I remembered 2 seconds ago doing a massive 20 foot backflip over you to avoid your 20 punch (in 2 secs) combo move that instead took down a tall building and destroyed half of Tokyo. Yep, in actual fact you were eating your lunch with your mum. Tops.

To achieve a similar, but less controleable effect I guess would be to give everyone Alzheimers. Or just wait until you are 75. Double tops in a very negative way there

Cheers

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