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Geek Culture / $5 million fine a day for Microsoft?

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MicroMan
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 20:57
Microsoft faces a $5m (£2.8m) daily fine from the European Union over an antitrust dispute. At midnight today (June 1st) the deadline passed by without Microsoft presenting the data that the Commission had requested. Microsoft has already been forced to pay a $497 million fine to the EU.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4594869.stm

The case with the EU is similar, but also different, from Microsofts dealings with the Dept of Justice in the United States. Here the quarrel is centered around the Windows Media player, and Microsofts "refusal" to allow competitors to have a level competitive field with the media player.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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David T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 21:05
They've met it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4598473.stm

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 21:12
They've met this deadline already.

Two Worlds and in Between
Hot Metal and Methedrine
MicroMan
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 21:35
They did? Marvelous how different things can be reported depending on where you look. Here in Sweden it is reported as though they haven't met it.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
BatVink
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 22:27
They met the deadline to submit the proposals. Now the EU have to spend time reviewing them, before disagreeing with them and then Microsoft will have more time to adjust the proposals, before being reviewed again.......

They are just playing for time. Microsoft had no reason to submit the proposals before yesterday. The media hype is, as Philip will no doubt confirm, completely unfounded and irrelevant.

BatVink
Raven
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 22:41
I think it's all pathetic.

I mean seriously.. it just pisses me off how companies cry foul, because Microsoft has hurt thier profit margins by providing a service they wanted to but for free.

Internet Explorer, is feature wise on-par with Mosaic/KDE. Perhaps some updates for how the internet has changed over the years, but it doesn't even come close to the features provided in every other internet browser today. Didn't any of these competiting companies ever think 'hey, why IS Explorer so popular?'

Media Player, is actually the opposite end of the coin though. It's the most state of the art Media Playback Utility available.
Seemless Video ReSizing, Full Dolby Integration (even on 2 Speakers), Interactive Playlists, Music Rip & Burning, Video and Audio Streaming Casts, etc.

Microsoft don't charge for either product, they have a FULL Microsoft Windows developments source; even Compilers designed for Windows online; and for free.

Sorry but, I just don't understand why Microsoft should have to pay for being more popular. They already pay more tax to the US and EU individually than any other company serving both markets do combined.

Microsoft aren't forcing people to use thier software, they're just allowing them to access the software out of the box.

Linux comes bundled with KDE/Dillo as standard.
MacOSX comes bundled with iBrowse(Safari) as standard.

Linux comes with XMS as standard.
MacOSX comes with iTunes as standard.

I don't see what Microsoft are doing is ANY different.

Van B
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 23:01 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 23:02
What if you had written a media player, like in the early days - say you wrote Winamp, and you were making nice money from it, maybe even just through advertisements.

Then M$ come along and slap you with a free alternative that does the same job. That's what happend with IE, they killed Netscape with IE and look what IE turned the internet into! - a jungle of malware and security concearns. Personally I'd be happy to pay £20 for a browser that could be relied on.

What if you invented the .mp3 format?, now I imagine the mp3 licence holders make decent money - but how cruddy must it have been for them when M$ released their own formats that do basically the same thing as established and STANDARD! formats.

At the end of the day, it makes good business sense for M$ to operate like this, they're in control of your whole PC, just where they want to be - it's where they make the most money, despite how 'free' these products are, they're all established to damage other companies. Does anyone here think that they make this stuff free outta the goodness of their hearts, or is it that they know people are lazy, and it's easy just to keep the crud that the PC comes with.

It does'nt matter to me how nice mediaplayer is, because all I need my media player to do is sit there and behave, tell me what tracks I have and let me play them - I don't need skins or visualisations or other fancy tinsel taking up memory. Media players should at least be able to go real small and be put outta the way, M$'s media player is too greedy, too big, and too commercial - I'm just waiting on the iTunes rip off, if there isn't one already.


Van-B

David T
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 00:00
For once Van, I have to disagree.

Quote: "What if you had written a media player, like in the early days - say you wrote Winamp, and you were making nice money from it, maybe even just through advertisements.

Then M$ come along and slap you with a free alternative that does the same job"


So what? MS can bundle what they want with Windows, you get media players with KDE, MacOS etc. The only difference is Windows is a popular OS and so more people use it.

I might try and sell fast food. Of course I'd have to lodge a complaint with the EU first about McDonalds. Obviously they're set up to ruin small fast food businesses like me.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 00:05
At the end of the day it's business, and if you didn't expect this to happen then jesus you need to wake up from reality.

If you tie this in to the games industry, you don't see anyone calling foul everytime another company urserps do you?

Counter-Strike provides a free alternative to Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament. Although sure they're different products, they're all pure Multiplayer only FPS games.

Counter-Strike is free, where-as you could expect to pay £30 for Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament.

People didn't stop buying Q3 or UT just because CS came out.
They still haven't stopped buying UT2004, simply because Half-Life 2 comes bundled with CSS.

The fact is these companies know how to do business; and the Counter-Strike team has made A LOT of money from Valve software, because as CS gets more popular so does the game required to run it (Half-Life).

See what I have a problem with is, Linux and MacOSX are quite hard to develop for. Although sure you can say 'well the overall market is smaller', we're not talking about the overall market here; but the ability to server the given market your available for.

MacOSX and Linux both compete for the Macintosh Market, but MacOSX owns over 90% of that market. Much like Microsoft do with the X86 Market.

You cannot get an alternative to iTunes. Microsoft have released Internet Explorer, but it's popularity doesn't even come close to iBrowse(Safari).

Within the PowerPC market, MacOSX effectively has a better Monopoly than Microsoft have ever achieved on the X86 market.

Yet no company is calling foul on Apple.

What I'm saying is.. Microsoft are doing nothing different from any other developer out there. It is simply becuase the X86 is the most popular processor type, and Windows is the most popular operating system; that people feel they can cry foul about it.

I honestly don't see what the difference here is between this, and say Sony demanding that no-one may develop 3rd Party Software Development Kits for thier Playstation Consoles without paying them a License fee and then paying them Royalties from each sale.

While Nintendo and Microsoft both allow and actually financially support any developer who wants to created 3rd party software development solutions.

As I said, this is all pathetic; and I'd bet my bottom dollar that all these court cases are about, are each of the governments taking more money than they are owe.

Have you noticed that they don't try to give Microsoft any alternatives, they don't tell them 'You've broken the law so either stop packaging such'n'such or we'll void your trading license'?

No.. When the United States Supreme Court rules on Microsoft with Internet Explorer, what they did was force Microsoft to split in-to 5 Corproate entities while paying fines.

Explorer is still perfectly fine to be shipped with Microsoft Windows. So where the [censored] is the justice?

Microsoft are basically unaffected aside from now paying more Tax plus being millions down due to fees and fines.

The same performance is going on with the EU. If they broke the law don't [censored] bargin with them, tell them, "Remove this program form all shipped Windows packages in Europe, or forget about shipping ANY more copies of Windows."

It's a ridiculous farsical media circus, created specifically for governments to make more money.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 00:17
Last time I checked, Mackers didn't give ham burgers away.

Kevin Picone
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 00:27
The monopolies infringement is what this is all about though - M$ should'nt be allowed a monopoly, and that's what they've been doing for their entire existance. If your business tactics liquidate your main competitor, cost people jobs, etc - surely that's a problem?, surely that's against the monopolies laws. These laws were put in place to stop mega-corporations taking over the world and putting their competitors out on the street - without them we'd be in a terrible state.

If I was a little hotdog stand, and M$ were McD's - then McD's would quickly introduce the McDog to put me out of business, I know that's the way of things, and if everyone accepts that's what happens then surely we all agree that they're trying to monopolise by killing opposition, the entire case behind all their legal troubles.

I'm keeping an eye on M$, and no I don't trust them one bit - I think they're gonna start pumping us for more cash soon, like with the XBox 360, they'll be charging for whatever they can get away with. We're already in a position where pay-for level add-ons are in Halo2, let's not end up with that all over the place, which is right where M$ are aiming.


Van-B

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 00:32 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 00:39
Quote: "Last time I checked, Mackers didn't give ham burgers away."


Quite often they do actually.
While they call it a promotion, the frequency they have these promotions you begin to really wonder.

Also the fact that thier burgers have effectively droped to 15% of thier original price in 5years is another interesting thing.

Big Mac has gone from £1.99 to £0.99 to £0.59 in just the last 2years.
This is also against the fact that they've now started branching out with thier healthy food ranges, which makes them less of a fast food resturant and more putting themselves in the family resturant business.

When you think about the integration of Media Player and Explorer it's more like ordering a Happy Meal; but other companies expect you to pay for the Soda and Fries Seperate, where-as Macdonald's provide you with them as a single meal combo, having thier fries and soda's sell through thier burger range.

All about marketing. You can't just cry to the Trading Standards Board simply because you can't out-market another company.

Quote: "he monopolies infringement is what this is all about though - M$ should'nt be allowed a monopoly, and that's what they've been doing for their entire existance. If your business tactics liquidate your main competitor, cost people jobs, etc - surely that's a problem?, surely that's against the monopolies laws."


No. What is against the monopoly laws is providing no way for healthy competition to exist. While Microsoft's Business tactics are pretty brutal, they're not infaliable.

Google for example is out-performing them in some key-areas of the Internet market. They clearly show that Microsoft is by no means a monopoly.

Microsoft still provide all the information online, for free, and even the tools for you to create your own competition to thier internal brands.

Hell, the main argument against them is the fact that thier internal software is closed source.

Why *should* a company have to open up thier source to everyone else?
The formats are freely available online, the original source they used again is freely available online.

Sorry, but if developers can't handle Microsoft; then tough.
If your product is good enough, with enough people knowing about it then it will become popular.

As I said, just look at Google. It's sad to think that only Ex-Microsoft Employees actually have what it takes to compete against Microsoft.

Dave J
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 01:09
Wtf? Prices are going down for you guys? We're seeing prices rise every few months down here.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 01:24
Quote: "When you think about the integration of Media Player and Explorer it's more like ordering a Happy Meal; but other companies expect you to pay for the Soda and Fries Seperate, where-as Macdonald's provide you with them as a single meal combo, having thier fries and soda's sell through thier burger range."


I don't agree that that's anything like what M$ do. More like they bully out the competition by giving away free burgers to everyone, if people don't like burgers they get them anyway, if fries make you sick, then tough because there they are - if you'd prefer some Burger King coffee, then tough because Burger King got bulldozed months ago. I like choice, the right to choose what goes in our PC's is already thin as worn thread, I mean is it still illegal to sell a PC without a copy of Windows?

It's ironic how much M$ stuff I use everyday, and I don't hate that much of it, just the really really badly written parts that are forced upon us.


Van-B

Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 01:33
Quote: "I mean is it still illegal to sell a PC without a copy of Windows?"


my last few store-bought computers came without an OS.. or more annoyingly even a formatted HDD. never heard of it being illegal *not* to put Windows on a PC.

Microsoft aren't forcing the competition out. Your not forced to use Explorer; most people here don't.

Your not forced to use Media Player in-fact I doubt that many people here even do use it much except me. Most people seem to prefer WinAmp which is fully compatible with all Microsoft formats using plug-ins.

WinAmp have survived by making deals with NetScape, that transferred over to AOL. Even with the new version they're still making money, despite the fact that Media Player is more advanced and free.

It's just a case of marketing and positioning. Is it alright for WinAmp to use these marketing tactics but Microsoft can't? What sort of a fair marketplace is that?

the_winch
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:08
It's not about media player. It's about all the content delivery stuff. Microsoft having their solution bundled with windows is a massive advantage.
Personally I would rather not pay microsoft a fee if I want to download some songs, listen to a stream or buy a portable mp3 player.

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MicroMan
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:16
Well, surprise surprise - I agree with Van here. And the winch. It's not so much the player for me - it's the delivery. If Microsoft gets to control what kind of player I put into my machine, then by default they also control what kind of content I stream into my machine.

Who says they'll adhere to the mp3-standard forever? When they reach hegemony they could always chuck out mp3 for WMA, and then control how wma is used.

So, it's not so much what kind of software we use - it's more to do with how we can use the software. With monopolies choice gets limited to what the monopoly can and wants to make, and to what the monopoly can and wants to show.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
GothOtaku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:17
Quote: "Internet Explorer, is feature wise on-par with Mosaic/KDE. Perhaps some updates for how the internet has changed over the years, but it doesn't even come close to the features provided in every other internet browser today. Didn't any of these competiting companies ever think 'hey, why IS Explorer so popular?'"


IE doesn't have the features of other free browsers and is a security risk. There's no reason to use IE at all.

...except that you need it to use certain MS products (like Windows Update).

I HATE the fact that I'm forced to keep IE on my computer simply because MS doesn't want to make it optional. I remember when 98-lite was popular (a product that removed IE from Windows even though MS said it would cause the computer to stop working). What happened then? Oh yeah, MS finally did fully integrate IE into Windows so it couldn't be removed. Sounds a bit anti-competitive to me...




Quote: "Media Player, is actually the opposite end of the coin though. It's the most state of the art Media Playback Utility available.
Seemless Video ReSizing, Full Dolby Integration (even on 2 Speakers), Interactive Playlists, Music Rip & Burning, Video and Audio Streaming Casts, etc."

[href]www.mplayerhq.hu[/href]

It's *nix only (and technically illegal in many countries) but supports more formats and stuff then Windows Media Player.


Quote: "You cannot get an alternative to iTunes."

Yes, you can.

Quote: "Within the PowerPC market, MacOSX effectively has a better Monopoly than Microsoft have ever achieved on the X86 market.

Yet no company is calling foul on Apple."

No, because most PowerPC processors are used in embedded applications. Also there have been a few computers to use PowerPC processors (BeBox, NeXTstation, Amiga, Pegasos). Yes, in the computer dektop field Apple does hold the largest share but there are alternatives.
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:24
Quote: "What if you invented the .mp3 format?, now I imagine the mp3 licence holders make decent money - but how cruddy must it have been for them when M$ released their own formats that do basically the same thing as established and STANDARD! formats."


Actually the OGG format was released before WMA, and it has always been license/patent free. It's only when Microsoft does such a thing that the competitors cry.

Quote: "If your business tactics liquidate your main competitor, cost people jobs, etc - surely that's a problem?"


Isn't that how business goes? I mean, if I open a convenience store next door to 7-11 that is cheaper and better quality, shouldn't I deserve the satisfaction of the 7-11 closing down?

Quote: "I'm keeping an eye on M$, and no I don't trust them one bit - I think they're gonna start pumping us for more cash soon, like with the XBox 360, they'll be charging for whatever they can get away with. We're already in a position where pay-for level add-ons are in Halo2, let's not end up with that all over the place, which is right where M$ are aiming."


But nobody is forcing you to buy the Halo 2 add-ons, are they? And there's nothing shady about releasing commercial expansion packs--- hell, game companies have been doing that for years.

I agree that MS is nearly a monopoly, but I'd have a hard time agreeing that they already are. There are perfectly valid alternatives to every piece of MS software that exists--- why not use them?


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:28
Sorry for the double post, but this thread is going too fast:

Quote: "Who says they'll adhere to the mp3-standard forever? When they reach hegemony they could always chuck out mp3 for WMA, and then control how wma is used."


Microsoft does not control the MP3 standard in any shape, way or form. It is an OSI standard, patented by Franhofer (or whatever they're called) and Thomson RCA. If MS "chuck out mp3 for WMA"--- well so what? They originally didn't support MP3 in Media Player at all, remember that? They opted to support it as it's the standard most everyone has been lovin' for close to 10 years. But it's non-MS.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
MicroMan
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:33
Quote: "But it's non-MS."


I know that. But if Microsoft have monopoly over the media player market, except for a few die hards, then they could again decide not to use mp3.

A lot of people would protest, but I'm afraid most would not. And since Microsoft by then has control over this market the protests would not amount to much. And then the de facto standard would be WMA, and most stuff would be produced for WMA... and so it goes.

Incidental monopoly from a real monopoly. Not only do they control the software that plays the files. They also have control of the content of the file.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:41
Quote: "IE doesn't have the features of other free browsers and is a security risk. There's no reason to use IE at all."


Security Risk is total [censored].
Put anything in a position where people can use it to take advantage and they will, no matter who made it. Microsoft's Explorer has been beaten open so many times over the years but Microsoft have done thier best to keep it as secure as possible.

And I mentioned above it doesn't have the features of the other.. but then it isn't the features that make the programs but how they're implimented.

Quote: "I HATE the fact that I'm forced to keep IE on my computer simply because MS doesn't want to make it optional."


Install another browser, and it asks you if you want to make it default. Click yes.. problem sovled.
IExplorer itself is only like 530K, the background libraries and such are required by Explorer (for viewing your HDD and such).

If you want to make an Explorer Shell System for FireFox or such, go ahead.

Quote: "No, because most PowerPC processors are used in embedded applications. Also there have been a few computers to use PowerPC processors (BeBox, NeXTstation, Amiga, Pegasos). Yes, in the computer dektop field Apple does hold the largest share but there are alternatives."


Apple Computers make up 13% of the Market. Seems small but when you consider that 85% of all computers are X86-based... Is the message getting through.

While sure this is a small area of the market, we're talking about how Apple force thier own software on thier users with more of a monopoly than Microsoft have in the X86 Sector.

Microsoft only serve 93% of thier key market. Apple serve 98%!
So Apple doesn't have a strangle hold on the majority of the computer market as a whole, in thier own universe ofit.. they ARE the masters.

empty
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:50 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 02:51
Quote: "Apple Computers make up 13% of the Market. Seems small but when you consider that 85% of all computers are X86-based... Is the message getting through.

While sure this is a small area of the market, we're talking about how Apple force thier own software on thier users with more of a monopoly than Microsoft have in the X86 Sector.

Microsoft only serve 93% of thier key market. Apple serve 98%!
So Apple doesn't have a strangle hold on the majority of the computer market as a whole, in thier own universe ofit.. they ARE the masters."


I'm not going to ask you if you can backup these numbers because we all know where that would go. But Apple's share in the Personal Computer section is about 3%. How many market shares they have on their own system is completely irrelevant with those numbers.


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.073
Oneka
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:53 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 02:57
You know I have to say iam with the M on this one...I think you have the right to create what you want the way you want without having to be bothered by some person whos mad that you made something better for less I mean I wouldnt buy a mediaplayer from the start I would just listen to a cd player or something but since Windows Media Player is free I dont have to play $20 for something that really isnt worth the money.... I would be mad If I made heck a OS for free (btw iam never making a OS >_> ) and someone started giving me fines becuase it was free or what ever....Its wrong to penalize someone for making their product better and at a price that beats the rest....Well to put it short I think of it as this....(Survival of the Fittest) Supposed there was two guys one did his work well and effiecent and ontime while the other complained and moaned about doing work and didnt do a good job and you pay the first one um lets say $120 an hour and the other $80 or something and the second guy says thats wrong...or some third person who has nothing to do with it like the EU says something about it and makes the company pay them equal when they dont do the equal amount of work is wrong and shouldnt be tolerated but thats todays world its all about equality now when infact we bring others down to boost the people at disadvantages (not disable people) which isnt fair I saw...well thats my opinion iam pretty sure I could have summed that up in less works or said it better but yeah......

Edit: I know I did not use correct punctations, just dont have the time to.

Making better games everday!
Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:55
Quote: "I'm not going to ask you if you can backup these numbers because we all know where that would go. But Apple's share in the Personal Computer section is about 3%. How many market shares they have on their own system is completely irrelevant with those numbers."


I see those reading lessons aren't paying off still, eh.

Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 02:59
The problem for me is I like 7-11's, I like what smaller companies can achieve when left alone, and unfortunately your right - and it'll continue this way.

What a cruddy, boring place the computing world will be when M$ and EA own everything. I'd prefer to have seen mediaplayer adopt OGG and MP3, rather than a new format - I mean are there many games using .wma soundtracks?, or are they more interested in mobile music, I've seen plenty MP3/WMA players, no MP3/OGG players in sight - and I know who's benefitting from that. It's one thing to provide something like mediaplayer, but to seal it into it's own safe little garden the way they have just gives them all the control - if you want to take your mediaplayer tunes anywhere but your PC, it's through a product that M$ has had some say in.

I'm going by the actions of all those millions of users who get their PC and until they're at a level where they can get alternatives for themselves - use M$ software because it's all there is, then end up with a screwed PC within a week. I can only go by the dozen or so times people have came to me with problems caused by these programs in the last year.

In fact here's a brand new gripe - I can't setup OE to use my hotmail account - it demands that I get the paid upgrade first. If that's not a money grabber then what is?. We either pay for the upgrade, or continue to use their deliberately slow Hotmail front-end and catch all the sparkly adverts on the way.


Van-B

empty
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 03:02
Quote: "I see those reading lessons aren't paying off still, eh."

True, not for you, obviously. Although I find it hard to spot the sentences you didn't understand.


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.073
GothOtaku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 03:06
Quote: "Install another browser, and it asks you if you want to make it default. Click yes.. problem sovled.
IExplorer itself is only like 530K, the background libraries and such are required by Explorer (for viewing your HDD and such)."


You seem to miss the point. I use Netscape 7.2 as my default browser but I need IE to do stuff like Windows Update and other crap. Even if I wanted to do without it MS makes it near impossible to remove IE because Windows says it requires it.
the_winch
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 03:13 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 03:14
As bandwidth and processing power increase products that use these technologies are going to get more and more popular.
If you just hand microsoft the market well will just end up with products like internet explorer that just about do the job until competition forces them to add features people want.
The trouble is there will be no firefox. No one will be able to write a competing product without first reverse engineering the formats. Then there will be the small problem of the hundreds of microsoft patents that need to be licensed. Then after all that you will need to get the software onto the devices which will end up protected like xbox etc.

When you want to watch something on your portable tv in you lunch break don't complain that the software sucks. Or at all the ads or subscripion fees that a part of goes to microsoft. Don't complain that all the content comes from big corporations since they are the only ones that can afford the license fees and bandwidth. Microsoft has no need to include bittorrent style distribution which would help small indy groups distribute content.

dbhelp - online dbpro help files with user comments
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 04:32
After Bill shove $5 million up his ass and explodes, the world will be a better place.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 05:10
Quote: "You seem to miss the point. I use Netscape 7.2 as my default browser but I need IE to do stuff like Windows Update and other crap."


mine updates via Auto-Update, well erm.. automatically when a new patch/update comes out for anything that uses the windows service.

why would you need to manually update? Seems like a very pointless gripe.

Quote: "True, not for you, obviously. Although I find it hard to spot the sentences you didn't understand."


Has no one explain to you the difference between the words:
Total, Private, Business and Personal?

I mean askoxford.com might be the answer to quite a few of your issues. Though I feel more would be helped with a little visit to yell.com and looking up 'Therapist'. I'm sure they can do some regression crap or something and get to the root of your problems.

Quote: "After Bill shove $5 million up his ass and explodes, the world will be a better place."


There's several million people named Bill either by nick or register name, so you might have to widdle that list down a bit.

Also seeing as Bill Gates is technically a figurehead, the board as a whole makes the marketing decisions; he isn't the be-all and end-all of Microsoft. So even if he were to die, that wouldn't change anything; you'd just have to figure out who the heck WAS in-control.

Remember project like the X-Box Team, and even Microsoft Games are projects that Bill Gates is DIRECTLY opposed to. Microsoft Game Studios get less funding from Microsoft directly and more from the X-Box Team (from the internal profits) each month.

Quote: "The trouble is there will be no firefox. No one will be able to write a competing product without first reverse engineering the formats. Then there will be the small problem of the hundreds of microsoft patents that need to be licensed. Then after all that you will need to get the software onto the devices which will end up protected like xbox etc."


That is the heart of the argument really, or atleast it should be.
You don't need to reverse engineer any Microsoft products in order to use them or interact with the propriotry formats.

Everything is open to the public in those regards because if you take it off of Windows you have to play Licensing Fees.

Though how this is different from any other format is beyond me. Ever actually sat down and read the LGPL or GPL put out with many products. An Ex of my very Pro-Linux said the one thing she liked about the OS was the fact of no License Agreements; no EULA.

(L)GPL is identical to the EULA just for an Open Source system. Doesn't mean in any shape or form you can ACTUALLY use the source.. many people see a GPL and think 'woohoo open source'; you STILL have to License the software. Just because the Linux community rely on all of these variations doesn't mean your not legally open to being legally screwed if one company doesn't want you using thier software.

But, for the community it's put across with a friendlier face.
The way to get around it is to create formats that are open in thier own right.. like VRML, about the only sodding truely open format I know of.

It's designed to allow everyone to create thier own variation, but then the problem there is without ONE company to say 'this is the standard' like the ARB for OpenGL, well you get the chaos that is Linux. They're all tied by a common kernel; but what's inside is just a mess of non-compliant junk perticular to each personal build.

The only way they have compatibility to atleast SOME extent is to compile programs specifically for that system. Even that isn't a guarentee though.. your still looking at less compatibility than Windows 95 programs under Windows XP.

In the end your not forced to use these programs on Windows, and the Microsoft License states that provided your creating your application FOR Windows you don't have to license formats.

While this does push up the distance between Windows and other operating systems; think about that doesn't stop DivX from creating a Linux variation, or Quicktime.

But they only product Mac and Win variations. That has nothing to do with the way either company operates, it has everything to do with the development and compatibility of Linux.

Look at all of the claims against Microsoft ... TELL ME ONE, that another company isn't doing right now.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 05:42
Microsoft is not a monopoly. Sure more people use their stuff than others, but it is not becasue there are no others. In fact there are free versions of almost every software that comes with windows as well as free os's you can download. There are even free alternatives to most other microsoft products. The reason everyone complains is because microsoft done a way better job of making their software easier to use. They just have a better mouse trap. Other companies should gat off their tail and start putting more effort into their software, and spend less time and money on law suits. Microsoft is already doing what those complaining should be doing.

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 06:40
You guys are arguing over Microsoft's right to do such and such, and how they're being attacked, and how they're costing other people jobs, and yatta yatta yatta. It's not getting you anywhere.

We, as consumers should be worried about Microsoft having large control over the market, because less competition results in crummier products. If Microsoft is confident that the public will buy their stuff because they're familiar with it, and it's what everybody else has, why on earth would they spend money to make it top of the line? That's basic business. If we want cutting-edge products we should be supporting EU and anybody else that is trying to chop up MS's market share.

Crazy Donut Productions
Current Project: A Redneck game
qwe
21
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 07:24
Quote: "Then M$ come along and slap you with a free alternative that does the same job. That's what happend with IE, they killed Netscape with IE and look what IE turned the internet into! - a jungle of malware and security concearns. Personally I'd be happy to pay £20 for a browser that could be relied on."


so pay for a browser that is more secure and snicker at everyone who gets the dysfunctional freebie... then again, if the browser you buy becomes possible, people will find a way to get their that browser's securities too...

Quote: "they bully out the competition by giving away free burgers to everyone, if people don't like burgers they get them anyway, if fries make you sick, then tough because there they are - if you'd prefer some Burger King coffee, then tough because Burger King got bulldozed months ago"


you always have the choice to get alternatives and pay for them (or find free alternatives) and no burger king wasn't bulldozed, there is plenty of software to compete with windows

Quote: "If we want cutting-edge products we should be supporting EU and anybody else that is trying to chop up MS's market share."
penalising a company for something that other companies do also, and for something it shouldn't be penalised for, is the only way to do this?
GothOtaku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 07:31 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 07:34
Quote: "Remember project like the X-Box Team, and even Microsoft Games are projects that Bill Gates is DIRECTLY opposed to."

Here's the funny thing. I remember reading the exact opposite of that.

Quote: "We, as consumers should be worried about Microsoft having large control over the market, because less competition results in crummier products. If Microsoft is confident that the public will buy their stuff because they're familiar with it, and it's what everybody else has, why on earth would they spend money to make it top of the line? That's basic business. If we want cutting-edge products we should be supporting EU and anybody else that is trying to chop up MS's market share."


This is very, very true. I use Windows XP and FreeBSD 5.4 at home (and Red Hat Linux and Mac OS X at work). Lets compare prices of these systems.

Windows XP : $299US Ful version, $199US Upgrade
FreeBSD 5.4 : Free

Which gives me better stability, security, reliability, customizabilty, and product compatability? FreeBSD. It never crashes, is insanely secure, fully customizable, and is compatible with Linux, SysV Unix, and Solaris executables (plus add Wine and dosemu and I have near total support for DOS and limited support for Windows apps). Why would I use Windows? There's no real reason to. I use it for games and that's pretty much it. Windows is buggy, BSD is stable. Windows costs $300, BSD costs nothing. Every app for Windows has a open source equivalent that is either the same quality or better. Yet more people MS stuff, why? True, user-friendliness is typically better on Windows for somethings but overall it's because that's what MS gives them. Most people here don't (and probably shouldn't) use Outlook and IE because they both have deserved reputations for being insecure. However, both my grandparents use IE and Outlook because it's what's on their computer. As more people do this MS could quite possibly start lowering their already not-so-great quality standards because it won't effect their product usage. Most computers come with Windows preinstalled and most companies that make computers are barred from bundling other OSes in their computers. This means that more people get Windows and only Windows in some cases because there's no other alternative which gives MS no incentive to improve their products (thankfully Apple's gotten it's act together recently and could pose a threat now). Heck, I remember when you had to pay for "upgrades" that were just patches for their buggy software. MS has not shown itself to be the most "caring" buisness when it comes to it's users and the way it handles buisness is abominable.
empty
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Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 07:46
Quote: "Quote: "True, not for you, obviously. Although I find it hard to spot the sentences you didn't understand."

Has no one explain to you the difference between the words:
Total, Private, Business and Personal?"

And your point is?
So you say "13% share of the market". What market? Does that include iPods? iTunes? Even if it's only computers and your number were true (cough) I repeat myself:
"How many market shares they have on their own system is completely irrelevant with those numbers."

Quote: "I mean askoxford.com might be the answer to quite a few of your issues. Though I feel more would be helped with a little visit to yell.com and looking up 'Therapist'. I'm sure they can do some regression crap or something and get to the root of your problems."

Lol, empiric knowledge, I assume?


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.073
MiR
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Location: Spain
Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 08:25
Isn´t this thread going a bit off topic? Isn´t the main problem the fact that we can´t remove Microsoft´s products. Don´t want WMP?... tough.Don´t want IE..tough. It doesn´t really matter how good Ms´ product´s are it´s the fact that we have to have to have them that´s the problem.


¿Como estas you el dia de today?
David T
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 17:43
Quote: "Isn´t this thread going a bit off topic? Isn´t the main problem the fact that we can´t remove Microsoft´s products. Don´t want WMP?... tough.Don´t want IE..tough. It doesn´t really matter how good Ms´ product´s are it´s the fact that we have to have to have them that´s the problem."


They are part of the OS. MS has used it's expertise in the browser renderer to enliven Windows Explorer, the desktop is probably some html thingy too, no doubt Frontpage and Word rely on its HTML rendering too.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 17:48
Does anyone here actually believe that Linux is an alternative to windows? - or that there's any reasonably way for most people to replace windows?.

Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic.

If you have a PC - you need Windows.
If you have Windows you have mediaplayer, IE and all the other stuff.
If you don't want this stuff then good freakin luck getting your PC working without it.

If you want to avoid this stuff, buy a mac, which is the advice I give to people nowadays.


Van-B

Lost in Thought
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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 17:52
Quote: "If you have a PC - you need Windows."


It is very, very nice to have windows, but definately not needed. Sure it is alot of work not to have it and alot of programs won't work without it, but it is not a necessity to have windows to use a computer.

Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 18:10
Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic...

The point I'm making is that nobody here would suggest a first-time PC owner installs anything but Windows, Linux is for servers and computer science students.


Van-B

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2005 18:17 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2005 18:19
If they didn't want to use Windows I would recommend a first time pc owner to buy a computer that comes with an OS installed such as Lindows/Linspire or whatever they are calling it now. And buy the software that would do what they wanted, that would work with such an OS. Yes Lindows/Linspire sux but it is an OS that is fairly easy to use if you buy matching software for it. I know several people who use it and do not have windows. Only their versions are the old Lindows name before they came up with this.

http://www.linspire.com/

[edit] And a fairly complete list of software to compliment it is here
http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_categories.php

GothOtaku
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Location: Amherst, MA, USA
Posted: 3rd Jun 2005 12:06
Quote: "Does anyone here actually believe that Linux is an alternative to windows? - or that there's any reasonably way for most people to replace windows?.

Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic."

In what way? Yes, Linux and other free, open-source operating systems are a proper alternative to Windows. If I didn't play computer games as much as I do I wouldn't need any Windows machines. My main one now is FreeBSD, I only use Windows for DB and games.

Quote: "If you have a PC - you need Windows.
If you have Windows you have mediaplayer, IE and all the other stuff.
If you don't want this stuff then good freakin luck getting your PC working without it."

I have a browser and media player on my FreeBSD computer and it doesn't have Windows... Works better than my Windows one most of the time.

Quote: "If you want to avoid this stuff, buy a mac, which is the advice I give to people nowadays."

That's actually good advice. Mac OS X is probably the most advanced OS on the market right now, has a lot of good software, and is easy to use.
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2005 17:55
Third, fourth and fifth time lucky:

Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic.

Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic.

Let's not exagerate here for the sake of our own arguments, let's be realistic.

So if a friend came to you and asked you to source them a PC, you'd provide them with a PC installed with Lindows?, or FreeBSD?

hmmmmkay!


Van-B

Benjamin
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Location: France
Posted: 4th Jun 2005 00:30
Quote: "So if a friend came to you and asked you to source them a PC, you'd provide them with a PC installed with Lindows?, or FreeBSD?"

I would provide them with a doughnut.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
David R
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Location: 3.14
Posted: 4th Jun 2005 01:03
I think this thread is beginning to speak volumes about the stereotypical view toward Linux & other FLOSS OS'es;

"Its free, its built by a load of random programmers, therefore its hard to use"

I hate this view on OS'es; Linux is no harder in anyway what-so-ever to use; its the way in which the OS is used. Linux is run and presented ina different style than Windows; other than that, they are no easiaer or no harder to use.

I understand the view of "you would install windows for first-time PC users". Yet, this view is going to dissapear *very* quickly within the next couple of years. FLOSS in a open-revolution of the masses;its only the greedy capitalists and people who 'assume the worst' that lose out.

Quote: " Yes Lindows/Linspire sux"

Well, you bettter get used to Linux and Linspire then; Linux usage (by home+business+server markets) is increasing by 5% a year.

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
Van B
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Posted: 4th Jun 2005 01:19
I'm not saying this is anything like a good thing - I'd actually like to get away from Windows, but there's no effective replacement for Windows that does everything that Windows and it's millions of pieces of software can do.
When your strict with a PC, like enforce a role upon it - like Server, browser, development, or whatever - you can control the OS very strictly and make use of other solutions. The problem as I see it is that PC's these days need to be all-singing all-dancing or they just don't get bought, and Windows provides those possibilities.

I mean, back on the Atari ST they developed an OS which was so damn powerful, I guess it was based loosely on Linux but with a nice high res desktop and really intuitive UI, like this OS came on cartridge and was head and shoulders above what GEM did (the standard OS) in terms of speed, multitasking - it was the preverbial dogs b****cks. The thing is, it got nowhere - and the only reason that it got nowhere is because it wasn't standard, if it's not on the machine when they get it, they don't want to know - regardless of the benefits.


Van-B

Jeku
Moderator
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 4th Jun 2005 02:27
Quote: "So if a friend came to you and asked you to source them a PC, you'd provide them with a PC installed with Lindows?, or FreeBSD?"


I would tell you the truth but I'm too afraid that you'll just say I'm exaggerating :-P I have converted sooo many friends and relatives over to Linux, including my grandparents. Myself, I use Ubuntu Linux and the ONLY reason I use Windows is for things like DarkBasic. But for the average computer user, an emailer, word processor/office suite, and a browser is all they need. Two years ago I would have agreed with you, but there are hundreds of Linux distributions and maybe you haven't tried the one that suits you best


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
David R
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Posted: 4th Jun 2005 05:01
Quote: "ut there's no effective replacement for Windows that does everything that Windows and it's millions of pieces of software can do"


WINE [Wine Is Not An Emulator] for Linux. 1/2 of all windows titles work via this emulator on Linux

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 4th Jun 2005 05:47
Quote: "So if a friend came to you and asked you to source them a PC, you'd provide them with a PC installed with Lindows?, or FreeBSD?"


I would give them a PC with Windows installed. Not because there isn't anything else that can do what windows can do, but because I like windows better. Have you even looked at the software that will work with Lindows? You will be hard pressed to find anything that Windows can do that Lindows can't as far as what the majority of the pc users do everyday.

Exactly what are these things that Windows can do that Lindows (or other equivalent functionality software) can't do?

Should Microsoft really be punished because we want to use their software instead of cheaper software that can do the same thing just maybe a little harder or not as standard (but would be standard if people used it). Windows is standard because we users buy and use it. If we all really got tired of microsoft, stopped using it, and started using the alternatives then the alternative would be standard. They just have a better mouse trap.

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