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Dark GDK / Jaysus! Should I buy this thing or not??

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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 01:30 Edited at: 7th Jun 2005 01:32
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A few monrths back I posted here asking about DBP/DGSDK. I took all the advice on board, messed around with the demo version of DBP, and decided to buy DBP due to the restrictive licensing of the DGSDK.

Now I've proved to myself I can do something useful using the DBP commands, and the SDK licence has changed, I thought I'd come back and buy the DGSDK and build my game in C++. However I see the forum here is still filled with vitriolic diatribes about the bugginess of the SDK, the slow support, lack of fixes and people being hauled off to work on shiny new toys instead of fixing exisiting bugs.

The rants on the forum seem to be justified as far as I can tell. Or am I getting a biased view from a few moaners? I recognise some names from the DBP forum where they seem good, sensible people. So I'm worried about springing for the SDK and M$ C++ and then being trapped in this apparently bug-ridden world (Day Of The Ants come again).

Should I buy this SDK, or run for the hills and use an open source Java or C++ engine? I'd appreciate honest fact (and opinion as it's usually based on something) from one and all (including TGC).

Thanks,

Troll.
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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 02:02
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The SDK is a fully complete, functional product and it offers a great deal.

As with any sofware it is to be expected that some minor problems will exist and this is the case and you will find similar issues with DB Pro but rest assured we are working on this and the release of the new beta upgrade has resolved many issues. Expect to see another beta version released this week as well that fixes a few problems with function naming.
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shiny
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 08:00
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Granted the SDK is buggy (personaly I have had most of my problems with higher graphics functions, shadows, bump mapping, etc) but I think for 60 bucks it is a very easy to use game engine and dispite the odd function that doesn't work correctly it is very stable too (at least as far as I can tell). One of my biggest gripes would be the brief & sometimes incorrect documentation, but this can be worked arround with a little prying into header files. I mean... you would think functions such as LoopSDK() would be documented considering even some of the samples use it!!! What does LoopSDK do anyway? Maybe it is in the documentation... can't find it though, the documentation search is rather faulty.

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Artus
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 17:29
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Quote: "the forum here is still filled with vitriolic diatribes about the bugginess of the SDK, the slow support, lack of fixes and people being hauled off to work on shiny new toys instead of fixing exisiting bugs"


I think you misunderstand the spirit of the discussions in this forum about SDK. I would say moreover that I can't see anything vitriolic in it.

The main fact is that documentation is poor (you can even consider DBPro documentation as a great help to understand SDK functions !), and that a number of functions where inactive or unusable in the first releases. However, most functionalities have been reestablished in the latest SDK update, and TGC are supposed to be currently working on documentation and examples.

I think that most of the demand from SDK users, and the intensity of some requests, are precisely because SDK is a great tool, full of functionnalities and potential that we are impatient to use at its full power.
TGC developpers seem to be really dedicated to their products and are reactive to users requests. The problem is however that they seem to have too many projects at the same time...

I would personnally recommand you the SDK. In its current state, although not perfect (but which product is ?), it's a powerful, efficient, fully featured, up-to-date and easy-to-use tool.
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 20:21
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Well, that seems to be fairly consistent anyway Thanks!

The documentation with DBP is appalling as well, so I'm used to that. OK, think I'll leave it a day or two more and see if I get any large amounts of adverse comments. If not I'll plunge in.

Thanks again folks.

T.
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Erick G
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 21:07
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I really think you should go for it. Speed, smaller exe's OOP possibilities and lots of updates coming.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jun 2005 03:40 Edited at: 8th Jun 2005 03:40
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All of which is a massive advantage over DBPro - I wrote AtomZ using it...


Atomz is at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 8th Jun 2005 04:43
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My favourite thing about the SDK is the ability to handle and process data into information in much easier and sophisticated ways.

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
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shiny
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Posted: 8th Jun 2005 04:53
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I'm freeking glad that I can program OOP.... I can't imagine making a big game without OOP... its nutz!

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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 8th Jun 2005 21:02
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Well yes, OOP is the seller for me, more so than speed. You can program in a "sort of" OOP way in DBP if you split your functions, objects and so on into separate files and include them in the programs. So you can get a sort of pseudo-encapsulation. Inheritance? Nope. Polymorphism? Nope. But you can apply patterns after a fashion. So you can still be disciplined to some extent.

But as you say, creating, and more importantly supporting, a huge non-OOP program would be a nightmare. Thanks for reminding me, it had sort of got lost in the details

T.
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South Wind
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Posted: 12th Jun 2005 18:41
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The SDK in combination with C++ could be a great thing for game development, if a good documentation would exist and the bugs - and the bugs after debugging to a new version - are removed (more testing, not only by the users !).
So, to do this (I knew it's not popular): increase the price, make regulary TESTED Updates and every year a new and better version with a cheaper Update Price for the existing users.
I think, this would be worth for the more professional users, and spend more time in the development of this great product and not so much in toys.

Thanks for understanding, but I think that should be sayed.

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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:28 Edited at: 15th Jun 2005 19:33
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Sorry to be tedious, but I decided to buy the DGSDK and went looking for C++ 2003. I found it has taken such a hammering on Amazon for being so incredibly slow that I don't really want to buy it. Also, if you download the free optimising compiler to speed things up, the license doesn't allow you to use it commercially (obviously to force you to buy visual studio which costs a fortune). <edit>It also deafeats the point of the new commercial DGSDK licence!</edit>

This is extremely disappointing because I want to buy the DGSDK and get on with my game. I've taken DBP about as far as I want to go, as the amount of code is already unmanagable without OOP. Is there any news on a date for the DevC++ version of the SDK? Will it support DevC++ 5 (which is currently in Beta) out of the box?

Thanks a lot,

T.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:32
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Visual Studio 2003 is around £70...


Atomz is at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:34
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It is?? Where please?

Thanks,

T.
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scooby bloke
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:36
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VC++ .Net 2003 is not slow on my laptop. In fact it's every bit as fast as VC6 and has a much nicer set of options / tools, (I'm using it at work to write .net stuff as well as at home for dsdk stuff ). I have got 1gb of ram in there though, so perhaps that helps. I still think it's the best ide out there for c++ dev.
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:37
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Scooby, I believe the IDE is good, it;s more the speed of execution compared with (say) VC6 that people were complaining about.
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scooby bloke
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:39
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Quote: "It is?? Where please?"


Well, www.dabs.com are selling it for £77. Most of the rest (simply, amazon etc) seem to be selling it for around £88.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:39 Edited at: 15th Jun 2005 19:41
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Its actually £99 including VAT, but its worth looking on eBay and in PC World, as it'll probably be cheaper there. For example, the Pro version seems to be going for £64

Both reviews on Amazon for the Standard version were positive, and besides you wont notice any speed difference between the Standard and Professional one (the standard does come with a limited set of optimisations anyway).


Atomz is at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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scooby bloke
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:41
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It all depends on how you compile it your code.

If you compile to native win32, then it will be just as fast as vc6. If however, (for example) you compile it into the .net framework and use managed code, then it will be slower.
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:42
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Thanks, I'll go back and have another look. I don't know what I was looking at but I could only find it at £400+.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:42
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Well, if you use DarkSDK, then you cant use .Net


Atomz is at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
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scooby bloke
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:43
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Can't you? I've not tried it

I just mentioned it because I suspect that's why some people in the amazon reviews were claiming it produced slower code.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:46
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Never tried .Net in the Standard version, so dont know about that.
Its the C compiler thats the more interesting of the two.


Atomz is at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 19:49
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It's the pro version that is £395 (don't know if that includes VAT or not).

Those of you with experience of it, any idea if you can plug in a different compiler without blowing up the IDE?
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Troll Fiddler
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Posted: 15th Jun 2005 21:28
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Oh well, that's the dirty deed done, all purchased. You can all send your muhahaha and heeheehee posts now
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Amey
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Posted: 26th Jun 2005 01:05
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So guys witch C++ is better for useing the SDK and faster during game play?
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