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Geek Culture / Vin Diesel is Hitman: Codename 47

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 03:13 Edited at: 19th Jun 2005 03:17
http://www.hitmanforum.com/



There are already several petition's being signed against the casting but i don't think that would do much good. Did they even consider Jason Statham? he would have been perfect for the role!

[edit]

And not just the film is at stake, he might replace the voice (David Bateson) and even the likeness of Agent 47 in the video games.

Ian T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 03:21
Vin Diesel's a good fit. The looks don't match completely but he's a good actor and his previous roles have matched the personality somewhat.

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robo cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 03:38
Jason Statham would be a much better choice. The Transporter was a brilliant film and the closest one I've seen to the equally classic Hitman games.

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Baggers
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 04:51
I wouldnt say Vin Diesel was a good choice atall...his style in other movie does not lend itself to '47'...yes he's an actor and he can just act the part but Vin Diesel carrys with him baggage in the form of his movie image.
I agree that Jason Statham would have been a better likness and actor for the part.

The bit I really hate is the idea of upcoming games being in Vin Diesel's likeness. Just seems like a complete sell-out in my mind.

Raven
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 04:52
Quote: "Jason Statham would be a much better choice. The Transporter was a brilliant film and the closest one I've seen to the equally classic Hitman games."


I always thought The Transporter was the movie version of Hitman 47.. was kinda put off when everyone was saying it was like some gay iconic film.

It's like hype, if you end up listening then that's what you have going through your head as your watching it.. 100% ruins the experience. I was kinda confused why Vin didn't do xXx2; didnt' like films seemed kinda well bleh.

Chronicles of Riddick were awesome though.

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 07:11
It would seem as though they picked a good actor for looks. His voice would goof it up though. The man sounds like a gorilla. 47 has a cool voice, crisp and cold-that of a elegant killer, not the voice of a retard with a bazooka strapped to his forehead.

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indi
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 12:06
the first movie had the timing and fright, the next one was just plain old
chronicles of riddiculous.

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Dave J
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 13:26
It was bound to happen; they're both bald.


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hexGEAR
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 20:26
Quote: "the first movie had the timing and fright, the next one was just plain old chronicles of riddiculous."


lol chronicles of riddick 'was' kinda boring.

Thing is i just don't see a guy as big as vin blending into the background inconspicuously like 47 would be able to and handling his weapons and motions with finesse in an assassination or gun fight. And a Hitman movie will inevitably include all of the above.

Raven
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 20:37
you mean Pitch Black? .. They're extremely different films, aimed at different audiences. I like both quite a bit.

I mean Pitch Black was like, a horror movie akin to Alien. Though you never really get to see anything it was more done through suggestion.
Riddick though was a hollywood epic style movie, that relied on action and the storyline rather then subtle psychosis.

Not that this matters much; I mean who exactly is going to see Hitman anyways? I'd wager it never actually goes in to development. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

Just boring when they try to make a game a movie or visa-versa. They tend to loose something in the translation.

Something I wouldn't mind seeing though is a Half-Life movie, but not done in the traditional; Live-Action or CGI methods, but have it created using the Source Engine. That would Rock, especially trying to get the whole 2-2.5hr movie and for Gordon NOT to speak heh

robo cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 21:12
What would be lame is if they made the film and then made the next Hitman game after the film based around the film. That could potentially make the game more linear as it tries to follow the methods used by 47 in the film. I loved how freeform Hitman 2 was and I played each level over and over again - differently each time. The film could potentially ruin the free form style of the Hitman games as it becomes more set piece based.

Simple... yet fun!
Raven
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 21:22
depends if you like one of the 5 people who actually liked Hitman.
good concept, horribly execution.. much like the Matrix parts 2 & 3

Dazzag
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 21:36
Quote: "Riddick though was a hollywood epic style movie"
I quite liked Riddick even though it was totally slagged off. But I wouldn't call it a hollywood epic style movie. More like hollywood action style movie. Personally wasn't that impressed with Pitch Black.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
hexGEAR
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 21:53
Quote: "depends if you like one of the 5 people who actually liked Hitman"


I'm one of the 5! Yeah the whole "not being able to save within a mission" thing was pretty frustrating, especially in the "say hello to my litte friend" and "gun-runners paradise" stages but nothing beats the feeling of actually completing those stages after restarting 50+ times... for example just 'cus a guard didn't like you standing too close to him.

robo cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 21:55
Quote: "good concept, horribly execution"


Hitman Contracts was disappointing (as it wasn't on Gamcube and lacked the quality of Hitman 2) but Hitman 2 was pure class. I disagree with you saying it was a horrible execution - its one of the best games around in my oppinion.

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Raven
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 22:17
Well from my point of view the game was horrible.
a/ couldn't save in-game, if your playing on any of the longer missions; one slip up and you have to play the whole damn level again. not frustrating, it's just plain stupid.

b/ Controls were uncontrolable. They didn't react quick enough sometimes, especially the sniper weaponry.. there was a very definate lag which required you to get used to (and quite frankly I couldn't be bothered to play it that long)

c/ people were tempermental, even with your gun put away you had a 50:50 chance that even a civie would run of screaming blowing your cover. Let alone the real bad guys.. if you were in an are you weren't suppose to be then I could understand but half the time you were in public places. Just freaking stupid..

I'll stop there but the game as a whole was just retarded in how it was done. The game concept though could've been good.. if it'd be done better.

Dave J
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 23:35
I know people who never play computer games but loved Hitman (don't ask me to explain why, though). I haven't played either of the games myself but despite what you may believe, Hitman does have a significant fanbase, otherwise they would never have made a sequel (and wouldn't even consider making a movie).


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robo cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2005 23:43
a) On Hitman 2 you could in the easier difficulty settings and at certain points on the hardest setting.

b) The Gamecube controls were perfect and intuitive. Can't see how you would dislike the control scheme if you played it on the Gamecube.

c) If you are in an area you are allowed to be in and you are not posing as someone you are not they don't get alarmed. I can't see why people complain about being found out too easily. Disguises are for long range - you aren't supposed to be able to stand next to someone and not get found out - that would make the game too easy.

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 00:30
|a| true... i think they were going for a more realistic game but realistic != fun in many cases.

|b| the PC controls weren't too bad but i gotta agree with the sniper rifle, maybe they were also going for realism 'cus it kept on shaking uncontrollably especially after firing a couple of shots... making successive head shots almost impossible.

|c| lol so true... talk about every guy you meet good/bad/neutral staring at you like you are some kinda freak (well, ironically he is). And at certain times i had to question the AI, i could be in disguise, in the right place and not packing any weapons and they'd still find me out.

Raven
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 01:06
a/ not in the PC version, there were no difficulty settings
b/ never played it on any of the console just PC, it went back very quickly
c/ that just makes it stupid, and again I don't know about the console versions but the PC version if you got too close or within the range of anyone and you'd be seen

if you've ever played Perfect Dark, then you'll understand that just because a disguise will get you where you want to go without alarming people doesn't make the game too easy.

that said some games rely too much on making the game ridiculously hard just to make it longer.. imo frustratingly hard games should be thrown in a fire and burnt during alpha stages.

there is no need for it.

robo cat
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 04:00
a) I'm sure there were difficulty settings on Hitman 2 on the PC. If you're talking about the original Hitman then no there weren't, but on the original Hitman as long as you wore a disguise most people wouldn't suspect anything.

b) You aren't meant to be able to get successive headshots unless you are particularly skillful. The snipers are for taking out a lone guard without anyone noticing; not for taking out a group of 4 guards before they can even react. Its more of a puzzler than a game like Timesplitters 2 as far as the sniping is concerned.

c) If 47 was to kill one of your colleagues (in real life) and put on their clothes and just stroll into your office and stand next to you, would you suspect anything. Unless you are a complete idiot then you probably would. The reason people assume they shouldn't know all their colleagues is because they appear identical. In reality they would probably know their fellow security guards and would not all be generic people who they don't know. Take the Tracking Hayamoto mission on Hitman 2. You can't use a disguise as a guard very easily since he's clearly not a member of the gang. This is realistic, as 47 does stick out like a sore thumb and gets suspected appropriately. People are bound to know that hes not one of the 15 or so people in their gang.

In Perfect Dark you couldn't use a disguise in every level and they were just set pieces, thus there is a limitation as to how easy it can make the game. If you could take ANY guards clothing then it would be over after you kill the first guard. Also, you weren't infiltrating a small building, you were normally infiltrating a large corporation type building where they would not know everyone. In Hitman you are infiltrating smaller groups. For example, its more likely that the waiters in a restaurant will suspect you posing as their head chef than you posing as an insignificant scientist in a massive corporation.

How can you say Hitman 2 was made too hard to be long. Hitman is absolutely PERFECT difficulty wise and puts all other games, including your Perfect Dark, to shame in this respect. Can you honestly say you were unable to equip yourself with an AK47 and just charge through killing every guard insight? The developers didn't stop you doing this, quite rare for a stealth game, and let you just plough through the game in an hour or so. You wouldn't get all the ratings, but you would still finish the game. If the good ratings are too hard to get for you then you are appropriately undeserving of the rating. You can't say that they made Hitman 2 ridiculously hard to make it longer! How much easier do you want it to be to just run and gun through?!? They don't force you to sneak about! I would be surprised if anyone actually agrees with you saying Hitman 2 has been cheaply made difficult to make it longer! The difficulty for getting each rating is absolutley PERFECT. It sounds to me like you want people who aren't good at Hitman 2 to be awarded the Silent Assassin rating. A 3 year old could realise that crap people get crap ratings and good people get good ratings. Its quite worrying that someone who is an industry professional thinks otherwise.

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Raven
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 04:29
Quote: "I'm sure there were difficulty settings on Hitman 2 on the PC. If you're talking about the original Hitman then no there weren't,"


Neither did. You had a single difficulty, that was it.. and it was buggy as hell at that.

Quote: "You aren't meant to be able to get successive headshots unless you are particularly skillful."


Who cares about multiple headshots, each of the snipers you'd have to reload after each shot. My point was more to the fact that you'd fire and the shots would sometimes go waaay off target. I know that real-life weapons are inaccurate but only within a few centimetres not over 30-40cms.. some of the weapons were ridiculous.

Quote: " If 47 was to kill one of your colleagues (in real life) and put on their clothes and just stroll into your office and stand next to you, would you suspect anything. Unless you are a complete idiot then you probably would."


but those weren't the situations you were left in, your in situations where you could pretend to be staff of something. while I would recognise if they bumped off jack and took his place given he's who I work with all day, if they bumped off someone from say one of the other development buildings and claimed to be looking for something, i'd be none-the-wiser because it's hard for me to memorise 200 people let alone keep tabs on all of the new or temporary staff.

Quote: "In Perfect Dark you couldn't use a disguise in every level and they were just set pieces, thus there is a limitation as to how easy it can make the game. "


yes only certain missions, but those missions they were available in they were very useful. When you consider that the game was an FPS, the use of disguises and thier effectiveness was something that really had never been seen in gameplay before.

Quote: "In Hitman you are infiltrating smaller groups. For example, its more likely that the waiters in a restaurant will suspect you posing as their head chef than you posing as an insignificant scientist in a massive corporation."


not necessarily. places hire temp waiters and cheifs hire temps all the time.. it's not unusal to work just one or so nights in a small resurant as a temp. I've done it before between jobs, it's good money

Quote: "Can you honestly say you were unable to equip yourself with an AK47 and just charge through killing every guard insight? The developers didn't stop you doing this,"


Do this on certain missions and you'd alert your target, he would bolt.. mission over. Or others you would incure the wrath of seemingly endless opponents. In my eyes those are limitations.

Quote: "How can you say Hitman 2 was made too hard to be long. Hitman is absolutely PERFECT difficulty wise and puts all other games, including your Perfect Dark, to shame in this respect."


Really? Well given I got bored retrying the same mission over and over and over and over just because some retard near the end spotted me due to faulty Line-of-Sight or some other crap; I'd say that it'd hardly be classed as that good.

In-fact something that truely pissed me off about the game were none of the enemies seemed to have any intelligences. You'd shoot at a car, rather than them crouching behind where they were trying to figure out where the shot came from... they'd instantly know and all run at you guns blazing.

In Perfect Dark you could shoot weapons out of hands, shoot them in the leg or arm and they'd run back to a safe point. They enemy would flank you, work as a team, work with the cover they have... and in terms of difficulty it was a very good blend because the game progressively got more difficult; Hitman just was identical; just different locations each time. Talk about BOOOOOOOOOO-RING.

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 05:00 Edited at: 20th Jun 2005 05:01
I played a bit of Hitman 2 at my friend's house, it was a lot of fun, good voice acting as well. I'm thinking the bugs in the PC version appear because it's a crummy port.
How can you guys compare Hitman to Perfect Dark? Completely different games.

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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 05:16
Quote: "Talk about BOOOOOOOOOO-RING."


Ohmigawd, like, totally!

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 05:55
Hitman 1 does have a difficulty setting

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D I G I T A L
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 07:55 Edited at: 20th Jun 2005 07:58
well guys, i have only two words for u...
Jason Stratham
the guy from The Transporter. yea! i think he's the one thats ready for it. the looks. the face. the attitude. everything! well...almost everything. in HITMAN the guy speaks American. it would be a tough challenge for Jason Stratham to speak like a hitman. but i really think that he should b the one for it.

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http://kino.tiscali.cz/apollo/pictures/20041112134136459510.jpg
[/img]

Raven
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 08:26
Quote: "I played a bit of Hitman 2 at my friend's house, it was a lot of fun, good voice acting as well. I'm thinking the bugs in the PC version appear because it's a crummy port."


WTF? Hitman appears on the PC first then is ported to the consoles... how could it be the crummy port?

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 15:32
PC first? My bad, I was thinking it was like BG&E/Splinter Cell. My friend had it for Xbox though, and last I checked, release dates for PC & XB were the same, of course I don't know anything about where they started from, logically I'd assume PC. Maybe they optimized it later then. Anyhow it runs smooth on xbox.

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Raven
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Posted: 20th Jun 2005 21:15
Dunno what the American release dates are like...
Hitman is developed by a British developer, they release the PC version first the the console versions seem to be done externally.

It's never been a big selling game so I don't think Eidos bother with it hitting the american market first. This said that might've changed for the lastest game, Codename.

First Blood will no doubt be multiplatform on release too.

robo cat
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 01:24
Quote: "and in terms of difficulty it was a very good blend because the game progressively got more difficult; Hitman just was identical; just different locations each time. Talk about BOOOOOOOOOO-RING."


You're not appreciating the depth of each level in Hitman 2. Each level was identical if you just played in the same style. The levels are just scenarios with different styles. The whole point of Hitman 2 is to play the levels in different ways. You can't do it one way so try another; you find a level easy so play it again with a completely different method. The levels are similar to each other but they are complex in that the same level can be overcome is vastly different ways each time.

Simple... yet fun!
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 02:19
Hitman: Contracts was great.
My cat agrees.



Raven
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 03:03
Robot, makes it pointless imo.. sorry but from a Level Design POV the fact is they just kinda threw you into the same situation over and over; try to make you think of your way out of it, often using the same tactics worked over and over provided minor changes for each situation.

I'm not going to play a game that forces me to make my own entertainment value for it. While I'm not a fan of hugely linear games, there is a simple fact that your often treated to something new to make sure it keeps the game interesting. The evolution throughout the game makes it fun. imo

That's just something that Hitman really never had. Your not likely to convince me otherwise, I just feel it was a piss poor game.
This said I know ALOT of people who say the same about Doom3, and I love that game ^_^

robo cat
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 03:39
Hitman 2 forces you to make your own entertainment, but in my oppinion thats better than games doing the entertainment for you. Take Perfect Dark, the disguises were a neat idea but the way they were implimented and forced upon you meant that from a gameplay point of view it would have been identical if they had just removed the enemies that you use the disguise to sneak past. It sounds like you wanted the levels in Hitman to be more pre-defined in how they are tackled with cut scenes and set pieces. This, however, would remove the thinking aspect of the game. If there was one route packed with cutscenes and set pieces through each level, you would only be able to play each level once - plus they would lose what makes Hitman better than most other stealth games. Hitman makes you think about your approach and essentially create your own set pieces and cutscenes - due to the cinematic style in 47s behaviour - in this respect it is similar to the game Thief (and Thief 2). The best levels in the Thief games were the ones which allowed you to plan your route into the complex, rather than sneaking through performing linear objects. Your statement about it giving you something new actually contradicts your argument. Hitman DOES give you something new each time you play - it gives you total freedom to give yourself something new. The game you want it to be like - full of linear set pieces - would give the visuals something new but it wouldn't give the gameplay something new. Granted you might want something new visually each level - which games like Perfect Dark deliver more - but what Hitman 2 gives you is the ability to get new gameplay (as in puzzle gameplay) the only drawback - which I consider to be a positive - is that you have to create the experience yourself. One point to remember is that Hitman isn't an action game - like Perfect Dark - but is more like a puzzler. A puzzler requires you to think and the impressiveness of Hitman 2 as a puzzler is that it lets you create your own puzzle each time based on the plan of action you intend to take.

Simple... yet fun!
hexGEAR
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 03:53
robo cat: couldn't have put it better myself.

Megaton Cat: that's just plain scary!

Raven
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 04:07
Quote: "Take Perfect Dark, the disguises were a neat idea but the way they were implimented and forced upon you meant that from a gameplay point of view it would have been identical if they had just removed the enemies that you use the disguise to sneak past"


Nope, I used to be pretty crap at sneaking games; so I just blasted my way past hundreds of enemies instead. Disguises weren't forced at all, there were no 'Mission Over' for being caught. Just not achieveing the objectives or dying. Past that the game was pretty free-roaming.

Quote: "The best levels in the Thief games were the ones which allowed you to plan your route into the complex, rather than sneaking through performing linear objects. "


Perhaps, but in Thief you couldn't just think about going in an expecting the same plan to work over and over; you'd have to completely change how you saw a level each time. Thief was also bad in respects that once you alerted guards it was as good as game over.

This said Thief was still very linear in nature, most missions while giving you 2-3 points of entry, they would often also be your exit.. once you were close enough to objectives basically you had a single route to take. The level designs being so radically different and intelligent are what made that game good.

Hitman doesn't have that. You can either do what your good at, or waste hours getting killed because you don't have the skill/ammo/etc. to do it any other way.

Quote: "The game you want it to be like - full of linear set pieces - would give the visuals something new but it wouldn't give the gameplay something new. Granted you might want something new visually each level - which games like Perfect Dark deliver more - but what Hitman 2 gives you is the ability to get new gameplay (as in puzzle gameplay) the only drawback - which I consider to be a positive - is that you have to create the experience yourself. One point to remember is that Hitman isn't an action game - like Perfect Dark - but is more like a puzzler. A puzzler requires you to think and the impressiveness of Hitman 2 as a puzzler is that it lets you create your own puzzle each time based on the plan of action you intend to take"


In my eyes, Perfect Dark wasn't pure action. In-fact most of it was spent being tactical.. for example being able to shoot out lights in order to make sure dead bodies aren't discovered, or being able to walk around despite and area being in an alarmed state. Although no it didn't have total freedom, imo that's a cheap way of adding a "puzzle element".

While sure being able to have the freedom to execute plans with freedom and tactically is cool; this is something I liked about Hidden&Dangerous, there is definately the problem that with this added freedom you also have to improve other aspects of the game for it to work correctly.

This is something Hitman fell down on, the AI just wasn't intelligent enough; it felt highly scripted based on events.

As I keep saying the premise of the game wasn't ever the problem, it was how they used it.

robo cat
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Posted: 21st Jun 2005 17:44
Quote: "Nope, I used to be pretty crap at sneaking games; so I just blasted my way past hundreds of enemies instead."


Perhaps that is why you don't like Hitman 2.

Quote: "you'd have to completely change how you saw a level each time."


As you do in Hitman once you realise you can't just grab the first disguise you see and simply march to the target and waste them. The level design in Hitman 2 is brilliant, and the sheer number of them is also great. I disagree about them being all the same, Invitation to a Party is much different to Tracking Hayamoto which is much different to Basement Killing. If you actually played some of the missions and thought about how to get Silent Assassin in numerous ways, the clever level designs actually make the way you think about each level completely different - much more than in Perfect Dark where you just think I'll kill everyone in this room, then go into the next and do the same, and so on.

Quote: "or waste hours getting killed because you don't have the skill/ammo/etc. to do it any other way."


Or do what you are meant to do and slowly build up your skill. Going for Mass Murderer first and snooping around the level. Then perhaps going for a Silent Assassin method but killing people who are proving to be a problem. Gradually, do it killing less and less and thats what makes the game fun - not restarting each time someone sees you.

Quote: "In my eyes, Perfect Dark wasn't pure action. In-fact most of it was spent being tactical.. for example being able to shoot out lights in order to make sure dead bodies aren't discovered, or being able to walk around despite and area being in an alarmed state. Although no it didn't have total freedom, imo that's a cheap way of adding a "puzzle element"."


You can do all those things in Hitman 2, but there is a difference. In Perfect Dark the tactical sections all felt too fabricated as if the one tactical route was pre-defined. Although, you could do it other ways, shooting out lights to hide dead bodies would all set pieces because the guards never really had much freedom to roam about searching; you see each other then you kill each other. Thus, the dead bodies all occured in pretty much the same place and the conealment of them would just be what they have given you to do (shoot a light switch), rather than thinking how to dispose of the corpse (such as dragging him up some stairs and chucking him off a blacony. The tactics in Hitman 2 are pre-defined and that makes it actually tactical rather than just performing the set pieces thrown at you.

Quote: " the AI just wasn't intelligent enough"


I found the AI pretty decent. There was one bug I found, where if they try to send you away with their hand and you step back out the way, wherever you go in the level (even out of sight) they will hunt you down and then wave their hand at you to go away, then rather humourously look around in panic and sprint back to where they were standing. However, that is the only problem I've ever had with the AI. The AI is great, you can't beat running alongside fellow fireman with an axe in hand down to the basement to save the day. The AI in Perfect Dark is often just stand and shoot and it too had its bugs. I remember standing in an elevator with a guard and while it was moving, he seemed to just shut down. I shoot him in the foot and ran around him in circles and bumping into him but he just stood there. Then when the elevator stopped he suddenly came back to life and turned round to shoot me.

Quote: " it was how they used it"


There was nothing wrong with their execution of the game. The concept was utilised brilliant and the level design was spot on. In what other games can you drop a gun down the laundry shoot and then posing as a pizza boy march gunless down through a metal detector, go down an elevator and then sneak around, find your guns which you dropped down the chute and then have a basement shootout and then marhc terminator style into your targets room and shoot at him whilst marching slowly. That is just one level and unique to all the others! The execution of Hitman 2 is one of the finest I've ever played. It was much more enjoyable than Perfect Dark - which was enjoyable, but didn't come close to what Hitman 2 has to offer.

Simple... yet fun!
Chenak
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 21st Jun 2005 21:50
The only thing I found annoying with hitman 2 was the walking, if you didn't walk then they would shoot you, wouldn't mind but 47 walks so damn slowly . Everything else was awesome
Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 21st Jun 2005 22:56
Quote: "Perhaps that is why you don't like Hitman 2."


Quote: "Nope, I used to be pretty crap at sneaking games; so I just blasted my way past hundreds of enemies instead."


learn to read.

Quote: "If you actually played some of the missions and thought about how to get Silent Assassin in numerous ways, the clever level designs actually make the way you think about each level completely different - much more than in Perfect Dark where you just think I'll kill everyone in this room, then go into the next and do the same, and so on."


No doubt, but I don't really care much about redoing something just to get some 'perfect' award. Provided I complete the level that's good enough for me. In Perfect Dark you never had to kill anyone, you could make Guard Surrender, once you did that they'd just stand there worried you'd come back and finish the job. You had civilians some of which were brave enough to try something some which weren't.

Very few missions actually called for you to kill everyone. In-fact it was only the last one that did.. If you wanted to get through the missions as quickly as possible you'd want to use stealth.

Quote: "Or do what you are meant to do and slowly build up your skill. Going for Mass Murderer first and snooping around the level. Then perhaps going for a Silent Assassin method but killing people who are proving to be a problem. Gradually, do it killing less and less and thats what makes the game fun - not restarting each time someone sees you."


Forcing you to play the game in a single way.. which defeats the entire point.

Quote: "You can do all those things in Hitman 2, but there is a difference. In Perfect Dark the tactical sections all felt too fabricated as if the one tactical route was pre-defined. Although, you could do it other ways, shooting out lights to hide dead bodies would all set pieces because the guards never really had much freedom to roam about searching; you see each other then you kill each other. Thus, the dead bodies all occured in pretty much the same place and the conealment of them would just be what they have given you to do (shoot a light switch), rather than thinking how to dispose of the corpse (such as dragging him up some stairs and chucking him off a blacony. The tactics in Hitman 2 are pre-defined and that makes it actually tactical rather than just performing the set pieces thrown at you."


Perfect Dark enemies all reacted to a situation differently, there are now OPEN areas of any game even something claiming to have the best AI like Half-Life2 in this respect.

The levels for Perfect Dark were designed to allow agents to take out enemies in a number of different ways depending on the personality of the gamer. While yes you can predict how enemies will react to something; the fact that there are around 12 different ways they could respond to a dead body, from Apathey to Abject Fear.. and 30 ways to respond to seeing you, etc..

The fact is that the AI in Perfect Dark made the game better and more tactical. This is the major problem I had with Hitman... the AI were some of the most stupid retards I've ever seen; while I could predict roughly what an enemy would do in PD after a while, after 2 attempts at the first levele I could always predict how the Hitman guys would react. They're as disappointing as the Splinter Cell guys.. with games like this the point is to make the enemies INTELLIGENT, but they didn't; they gave them set reactions providing you with the challenge that these guys are perfect.

This actually pisses me off about just about most games nowadays.
In Perfect Dark, the guards have so many ranges of reaction.

a) They have to reload thier weapons.
b) Thier weapons can jam.
c) They're REALLY REALLY REALLY bad shots, thier accuracy improves with each difficulty but it's NEVER 100%
c) You can shoot thier weapon out of thier hand, which they'll try to pick it up or another weapon.. some will even run away at first and try to find another gun in a safer area.
d) You can injure the enemy in a way that either thier Arm or Leg is damaged making them limp, or even loosing all control over them.
2 leg shots and watch them fall for the floor cursing you.
e) They're not idiots, they will use cover for protect, they'll hide when they're being fired upon too much. If they're close to an alarm they will try to go for it, if your in a room with a light switch you can turn it off and those who are after you will be temporarily be blinded (you can visually see them stumble around until they get thier nightvision on)

Sure the games AI feels structured at times, but FGS it was using a relatively under-powered Processor compared to what Hitman is... yet was still capable of providing a much better overal gaming experience.

Quote: "The AI in Perfect Dark is often just stand and shoot and it too had its bugs. I remember standing in an elevator with a guard and while it was moving, he seemed to just shut down. I shoot him in the foot and ran around him in circles and bumping into him but he just stood there. Then when the elevator stopped he suddenly came back to life and turned round to shoot me."


Bollocks.

Quote: "The execution of Hitman 2 is one of the finest I've ever played. It was much more enjoyable than Perfect Dark - which was enjoyable, but didn't come close to what Hitman 2 has to offer. "


In your opinion.. I felt the AI was sloppy and completely structured; once you figured out what they reacted to the game was ridiculously easy and instantly BORING. The controls were buggy at best, the AI itself once your spotted is a case of Quake-logic. In quake that's fun, in a game that's SUPPOSE to be tactical it's boring as hell.

The game was just piss poor.

Van B
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22
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Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 21st Jun 2005 23:41
Hitman is one of those games that escape me - like Max Pain, and countless other 3rd person shooters. I mean, I can't stand it when you can't see who your trying to shoot because of the 'back of your head!'. GTA games suffer with this as well, but the other aspects of GTA games make up for it. There's not enough fun in Hitman to make up for it being third person. I mean, the ragdolls are great, the guns are great, the story, setting, levels.... all great - now if they'd only added the option to play in first person, or even just fade out the player when your trying to shoot so you can see through him.

Resident Evil 4 got around this by sticking your hero in the left hand corner leaving the aiming area free - I mean that style seems like common sense to me - hopefully people will go that route in future because in my experience that's a perfect solution, shift the camera so it's over the right shoulder, instead of behind the skull.

The benefit (singular) of third person is the spacial awareness you have, which is needed when your jumping around on platforms or kicking someone in the shins - but when shooting someone in front of you, the 3rd person in Hitman (and many other games) is about as unrealistic and stupid as it can get.

As for Vin playing 47, well it could be worse, at least the effects and budget will match the star. We're simply never going to get the ideal star for 47 or any commercial movie like Hitman, if you want a good hitman movie (that inspired Hitman a great deal) then get Leon (or The Professional) as it's the best Hitman film ever, 'Hitman' will pale in comparison so why bother?

Jason has the look, but that London accent is no good - and I doubt he can hide it, someone who speaks slower and more methodically would do a far better job.


Van-B

robo cat
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Location: In a cat litter tray, near you...
Posted: 22nd Jun 2005 00:43
You seem to be contradicting yourself now Raven!

Quote: "Forcing you to play the game in a single way.. which defeats the entire point."


Earlier you complained about Hitman 2 being too freeform which is lazy and cheap, but now you are complaining that it is linear!

Quote: "once you figured out what they reacted to the game was ridiculously easy and instantly BORING"


I thought you said the game was too hard!

Quote: "they gave them set reactions providing you with the challenge that these guys are perfect."


So...the Hitman 2 guards are both too easy and too hard at the same time...impressive!

Quote: "Bollocks."


Now resorting to these words to support your argument. I'm not lying about this, I just sneaked in the elevator behind a guard in the first mission. Presumably they stop the enemy moving if they think they are alone in an elevator so they don't just patrol around inside the lift and bump into the elevator walls.

Quote: "Sure the games AI feels structured at times, but FGS it was using a relatively under-powered Processor compared to what Hitman is... yet was still capable of providing a much better overal gaming experience."


You can't hold the processor used against a game. Perfect Dark was great for its time, but I feel that Hitman 2 is better. Granted Hitman may not be as good for its time as Perfect Dark was, but in the comparison of the two games it still comes up trumps. It would be wrong of me to say that Perfect Dark is worse than the original arcade Donkey Kong because it is on a more powerful processor - even though I would rather play Perfect Dark.

Quote: "This actually pisses me off about just about most games nowadays.
In Perfect Dark, the guards have so many ranges of reaction.

a) They have to reload thier weapons.
b) Thier weapons can jam.
c) They're REALLY REALLY REALLY bad shots, thier accuracy improves with each difficulty but it's NEVER 100%
c) You can shoot thier weapon out of thier hand, which they'll try to pick it up or another weapon.. some will even run away at first and try to find another gun in a safer area.
d) You can injure the enemy in a way that either thier Arm or Leg is damaged making them limp, or even loosing all control over them.
2 leg shots and watch them fall for the floor cursing you.
e) They're not idiots, they will use cover for protect, they'll hide when they're being fired upon too much. If they're close to an alarm they will try to go for it, if your in a room with a light switch you can turn it off and those who are after you will be temporarily be blinded (you can visually see them stumble around until they get thier nightvision on)"


I'm not saying Perfect Dark is bad, it is a brilliant game. I'm merely using it as an example of a FPS that you like so that I can compare Hitman 2 to it and convince you that it isn't as bad as you say.

@ Van B
Quote: "now if they'd only added the option to play in first person"


If you are playing on the Gamecube, press up on the D-Pad twice (once to zoom the camera in closest and again to go into first person). The only drawback is if you have your gun up aiming in this way (its like a standard FPS), guards get alerted if you point it at them. You need to holster your gun, it doesn't matter if it is visible (such as an AK 47), so you don't accidentally point it at a guard.

Simple... yet fun!
Raven
19
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2005 02:17
Quote: "Earlier you complained about Hitman 2 being too freeform which is lazy and cheap, but now you are complaining that it is linear!"


Not at all.. the original complaint about the level design is that it is far to open. In other words someone built a level, and has thrown you in it giving you certain objectives.

The second complaint is about the fact that while you can achieve things in several ways the reality is that there is only one real way to complete any of the missions; while you cna mess around trying new routes and whatever, when you find something that works why would you risk changing it and going back to dying every few minutes?

Quote: "I thought you said the game was too hard!"


Again go back and read what I said. I'm getting sick of people only taking the ghist of what I'm saying rather than taking the time to understand it.

What I said was that because of the AI the game is hard, however not unlike say TicTacToe... once you figure out how to beat it one, beating it over and over just isn't a challenge anymore.

Quote: "So...the Hitman 2 guards are both too easy and too hard at the same time...impressive!"


See Comments Above

Quote: "Now resorting to these words to support your argument. I'm not lying about this, I just sneaked in the elevator behind a guard in the first mission. Presumably they stop the enemy moving if they think they are alone in an elevator so they don't just patrol around inside the lift and bump into the elevator walls."


Well I've been in the elevator(s) before with enemy and they attack you, but they don't attack you if they're in the elevator and your standing on the balconies around them.. although they will if the positions are switched. While that is a valid bug, what your claiming isn't.. atleast not in either the PAL UK or PAL JAP versions.

Quote: "You can't hold the processor used against a game. Perfect Dark was great for its time, but I feel that Hitman 2 is better."


Why not? It's simply ergonomics of game evolution.
Hitman has more power to provide more realistic AI, Physics, Graphics, etc. from where I'm sitting given the main area of the game SHOULD be the AI, it's still falling short of Perfect Dark.

Processor power is a very HUGE factor in what AI is capable of doing. While you might think that the AI in Wolf3D today is really pathetic given it's mainly noise and sight based, but the fact is for the time and processor trying to run it.. it was outstanding.

Your if your trying to tell me that the Hitman 1/2 running on an 800MHz CISC Processor is perfectly reasonable for the enemies to run at you like idiots and never jump behind cover even when your mowing them down with an M16 ... yet Perfect Dark using a 90MHz RISC Processor (which doubled for Graphics) having better overall AI is a fair trade-off; then there is something wrong.

Quote: "Granted Hitman may not be as good for its time as Perfect Dark was, but in the comparison of the two games it still comes up trumps."


The controls are sluggish, the AI is moronic, the graphics are glitchy as hell.. and the missions take far to long without saving points. IMO the only thing that is better than PD in terms of an overall game are the graphics; Even then it doesn't have half of the features that PD did.

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