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Geek Culture / Live8 - Event

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Raven
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 19:54
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http://www.makepovertyhistory.com
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1 - live coverage of all 8 events.

I don\'t agree with it, but it\'s a very big event going on right now. If you\'ve not heard of it, then you must be living in a box shut off from the real-world.

It\'s about earning money for the 3rd world country aid, but we more over it\'s also a huge event to try and sway the world leaders at G8 this weekend in Scotland; as thier choices will either make or break many African communities.

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BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 20:54
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Quote: "It's about earning money for the 3rd world country aid"


That is absolutely NOT what it's about! It's about awareness, and ploitical lobbying to wipe out 3rd World Debt.

20 years ago we had Live Aid. It raised millions of pounds, did lots of good stuff, but now it's obvious that raising money is pointless due to the debts of the Third World to the 8 biggest economies.

BatVink
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 21:13
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what batvink said.

the first one was about money, but this yr its all about awareness and people power.

we should get tony blair to perform with his university rock band
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 21:18
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ROFL

Shame, I cant post with caps locks on

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
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lagmaster
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 21:47 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2005 21:50
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i think AOL are hooking up a live video stream today, lemme go find a url for it. ...

http://www.aol.co.uk/live8/liveaid/liveaid.htm if you wanna watch a few of the old live aid from 1985. (real player required)

http://www.aol.co.uk/live8/ <-- check there for the live stream

it's on in about 10 minutes

lagmaster - irc.devhat.net <--
Wireplay TFC Stats
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 21:48
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No...NOOOOOOOO!

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
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Killswitch
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2005 23:18
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How can you not agree with it Raven? It's not like its an event to presuade the G8 to exploit Africa more - ok it's not going to achieve anything but it has good intentions.

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
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DBAlex
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 00:03
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Well its been good up to know!

Paul McCartney was awesome to start it off!




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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 00:20
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[init_rant]

I'm just worried about the supposed million halfwits who are going to decend on scotland after the gigs have finished. There has even been talk of a 25,000 people glof game teeing off from princes street gardens, and playing all the way to gleneagles via the busiest road routes with the intent of causing chaos to business. cars dropping nails behind them to block roads etc. this is going to get well out of hand and i won't be on the protesters side. It's an invasion of the country where i live by people with nothing better to do.

btw, the entire worlds economy is based on debt. you wipe the bebt, you kill the economy, simple. you just can't wipe out that amount of debt without there being a dramatic knock on effect, and where do you draw the bleedin' line. look at the problem using logic not feelings about what's right and wrong.

'there's too many home fires burning, and not enough trees.'

and if you think i'm harsh, look at the history of scotland and then tell me i'm harsh. we have been shafted to breaking point for the entire duration of our history, all our oil is foreign owned, most of our land is foreign owned, our country is controlled by a foriegn power (westminster, even though we have our own parlament) how about giving us back our country as a good will gesture or because it's the 'right thing to do' or how about giving back the land we stole from palastine to house the Jews, or how about the USA doing away with reservations and declaring Native American Indians the true owners of that slab of land. no? well why should I care about the rest of the world and wether they are making enough money while my country and it's population are still being bent over.

[end_rant]

Grant.

PS. I fully expect to be flamed for what i have posted, but i really don't care, so flame away, you see i'm used to worse, much worse.

mmmm....computer....
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 00:46
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Pink Floyd! 5:30 I think.

More tea Vicar?
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Evil Inside
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 00:49 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 00:50
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Mind you, I'm watching Live 8 at the moment!

Switch on to it now!

Yeah, Pink Floyd have joined back together in that they have, I might watch that when it comes on, well im watching it from my computer at this very moment!


If someone abuses you, CURSE THEM! It's just common sense...
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Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 01:37
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Quote: "btw, the entire worlds economy is based on debt. you wipe the bebt, you kill the economy, simple. you just can't wipe out that amount of debt without there being a dramatic knock on effect, and where do you draw the bleedin' line. look at the problem using logic not feelings about what's right and wrong."


geecee3, I realise from your rant that have strong feelings on the subject, but the above doesn't make any sense. I would be interested to read your explanation of why debt cancellation would "kill the economy"?


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adr
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 02:21 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 02:24
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Quote: "Live Aid ... raised millions of pounds, did lots of good stuff,"


Apparently, that didn't happen. The reason this is not a fund raising event is because the millions of pounds raised through Live Aid went to corrupt govornments, rather than people. That's why there's a big banner saying "We don't want your money, we want you" above the stage.

Geecee3 > I'm half and half on what you said there. Yes, you kill the debt and you've just lost a revenue stream. However, if you think a bit more long term and it could be beneficial. I'm no economics graduate (if I was I'd be flipping burgers) but I think it sounds pretty feasable that the reason Africa's economy is so borked is that they can't afford to start any serious export programme because they're constantly paying off debt. With no debt, any economy that could flourish, in theory, would have a better chance. And then we have another productive nation on our hands

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Raven
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 02:27
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Quote: "How can you not agree with it Raven? It's not like its an event to presuade the G8 to exploit Africa more - ok it's not going to achieve anything but it has good intentions."


No one is exploiting the Africans. Yes, they have it rough as a "3rd World Country" but lets all get our stories straight here.

The G8 powers have not made Africa what it is today. They have given billions each year, they have provided schools, medical Aid. Military Aid, etc.

The problems with Africa are not our to solve, but the Africans. We can try to help accelerate thier development, but until they are ready to take such steps for themselves there is nothing we can ever do to rectify the situation.

Yes it is sad that many people die from dirty water, and no food or poor medical aid. Thing is that, it isn't our fault.

I heard Bono say "We've cured aids, so why do we not give the vaccine to the Africians where it's rife?". The sad fact is, we can not cure aids. Only if we catch it early enough can we treat it until it become benile. There is a change it could retrigger and the cure has some very serious side effects. Not to mention the drug that makes it possible is just not wide-spread enough. It is an extremely costly treatment even in the United States or United Kingdom. If you have Aids there is STILL a 9:10 chance you will die.

Sorry but this is a decease that is passed on either genetically in a weakened state or through sexual intercourse (or other large bodily fluid exchanges). There is a quite simple solution to prevent it the same solution Doctors tell you here. DO NO SCREW ANYONE ELSE!

They might not like that option but the only way to prevent such a decease being passed on is to prevent it's method of transportation to a minimum. That was we can afford to provide the medication to enough people to try and erradicate it. Hell we can't even cure the common cold, we can only subserve the basic symptoms slightly.

Curing Cancer isn't a cure, it's a risk.. a BIG risk. The Afrians have dug themselves into the mess they are in, not us.

President Bush made a very serious point last week that the reason he is willing to withhold ANY more aid to Africa is until they see that the money, food, tools, etc. being provided will actually be used to benefit the country and not keep these stupid internal wars going. I fully back any decision he comes to, because quite frankly until they learn to actually use the generosity properly they will NEVER even reach the standard of living that India and Pakistan currently 'enjoy'.

Quite frankly the way I see it is there are just as many Homeless Across Europe who die needlessly because they can't afford to live in these so-called enriched cultures. Tell ya what lets say screw you cause the Afrian nations need a new AK47, or another few bricks to build a house for thier 20 children when all they need is a 100 pack of Durex or perhaps some Chastesty Belts.

Sorry, but the problems in Africa aren't our fault.
Perhaps the G8 Leaders should wake up and learn that until Africa realistically has to fend for itself they'll just rely on the hand outs then complain because they can't compete in the real-world.

That's like TheGameCreators thinking they can take on Microsoft. Dream on! They should try focusing on the more important issues.

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Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 02:32
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I don't care if it achieves crap, its a god damn good concert

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!
http://blog.myspace.com/erict An Alternative to Mouse's blog. Now with more lowbrow opinions.
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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 02:57
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debt is bought and sold just like any other commodity, and it's all in the name of profit, debt management is a huge business, just take a look at the way the banks work, and even worse just look at the way the stock market reacts to major shifts in wealth, I imagine there will be a few businesses out there who rely on 3rd world debt to balance the books simply because they are owed money for goods or services that have not been payed for in full, and that other companies rely on those companies for contracts and so on. Imagine if the government cancelled all mortgages and said your house is payed for. now think of the 'interest' that is missing from projected figures and targets, think about the billions that have been lost in repayments and the performance drops of those lenders. Now think of the stock market and how it would react to the enormous shif in debt and the lack of projected incomes that would be contained within that debt. It would cause chaos, It's not just governments that are owed money, it's companies and individuals who have provided monies, goods and services to those countries too.
Also you also have to take into account the amount of money it takes to wipe out the debt, the amount of administrative hullabaloo it would all have to go through, the amount of legal wrangeling and backstabbing, all the while costing yet more money and denting confidence in the worlds trading economies. We cannot afford to upset the international stock markets with such a large shift or cancallation of debt. it's just not workable without there being a lot of business casualties. Who pays for the Admin and legal costs of such a move?

I would like to see the world 'equal', but we don't live in a Utopia and not everyone can be well off or fairly treated, that's too one sided and we all know that there has to be a balance struck in order to maintain stability.

As it stands the worlds economy is pretty stable just now and I don't see the need to upset that. Just remember that when the next ressecion in global trading occurs, many governments will be looking to monies owed to balance the books, monies that could be wiped out by peoples personal feelings getting in the way of the complexities of the delicate world economy.

mmmm....computer....
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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 03:11 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 03:12
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Raven, I agree with a few sentances you said, but this just made me sick:

Quote: "Curing Cancer isn't a cure, it's a risk.. a BIG risk. The Afrians have dug themselves into the mess they are in, not us."


Sounds just like the people who say 'Why address AIDS, it only kills the gays anyway!' Just as completely inaccurate, just as selfish and blind.


Bush did indeed make a good point- personally I think the "aid" system is hilariouly ironic. The money goes to the governments and they don't use it to help the people, they use it to make themselves more powerful and gain more of a stranglehold over their population.

I think the fact that this event is not about money is a good thing; however, I'm rather skeptical about the whole idea behind it, and the catchphrase 'make poverty history' is also pretty damn stupid.

My two cents.

(by the way, I think geecee3 has an excellent point.)

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Chris K
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 03:24
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Raven, your comments are pretty wrong.

The whole point of the concert is to give Africa a chance to pick itself up. At the moment it is getting choked by unfair trade and aid laws. This is why it is a campaign to change the laws and protocols.

And to suggest that to stop aids they should stop sleeping around (I think this is what you were saying). Well that is just plain sick. The aids epidemics were caused by mass rape during genocides, where it was a conscience choice to use the disease as a weapon.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 03:44
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Ok, people are getting a tad mixed up here

Quote: "No one is exploiting the Africans. Yes, they have it rough as a "3rd World Country" but lets all get our stories straight here.

The G8 powers have not made Africa what it is today. They have given billions each year, they have provided schools, medical Aid. Military Aid, etc."


Yes, we do fully exploit them. MEDC's (More Economically Developed Countries) exploit LEDC's (Less Economically Developed Countries) all the time. Not even just Africa; but Africa is an extremely good example.

How? We set what we are prepared to pay for their goods (e.g. the coffee crisis elsewhere in the world). If they produce a huge quantity of a crop (e.g. coffee...), then there is no Demand-supply balance; so we drop how much we are willing to pay for the goods

This is bad, since the only option they have is to sell for the pittance we offer them; they have no use for raw coffee, and they may as well sell it. So its a vicious circle, and we continue to leech.

Quote: "The G8 powers have not made Africa what it is today. They have given billions each year, they have provided schools, medical Aid. Military Aid, etc.
"

The debt caused by these grants/aid 'packets' are double the amount given. What's the point?

Quote: "They might not like that option but the only way to prevent such a decease being passed on is to prevent it's method of transportation to a minimum. That was we can afford to provide the medication to enough people to try and erradicate it. Hell we can't even cure the common cold, we can only subserve the basic symptoms slightly.
"


1) African children concieved by African families have a very low chance of surviving their first 6 months of life, so the more children, the higher chance of success of one of them surviving (or the whole nation could die out; I'm not joking here)

2) [A stupid] African belief passed on by 'witch doctors' is that if you have AID's, you can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin younger than 15. Doesn't quite help.

Quote: " Hell we can't even cure the common cold, we can only subserve the basic symptoms slightly."

Take a look at the varient list for the common cold.... then you'll see why

Quote: "I fully back any decision he comes to, because quite frankly until they learn to actually use the generosity properly they will NEVER even reach the standard of living that India and Pakistan currently 'enjoy'.
"


The word 'they' doesn't work- its 'the', and 'the' being 'the government'. "Absolute power, corrupts absolutely."

Quote: "Also you also have to take into account the amount of money it takes to wipe out the debt, the amount of administrative hullabaloo it would all have to go through, the amount of legal wrangeling and backstabbing, all the while costing yet more money and denting confidence in the worlds trading economies. We cannot afford to upset the international stock markets with such a large shift or cancallation of debt. it's just not workable without there being a lot of business casualties. Who pays for the Admin and legal costs of such a move?
"


Sorry, but that's just sh..

Cancellation of debt's has a huge effect on stock market's etc. - and a good one. Especially in Africa of course. The last time a large debt was cancelled (something to do with Kenya) profit of MEDC's (explained earlier in post) decreased by 0.078%. Global stability decreased by an estimated 0.6672%.

*Sarcasm*
Oh dear. Were all going to die.
*/Sarcasm*

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 03:57
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Quote: "profit of MEDC's (explained earlier in post) decreased by 0.078%. Global stability decreased by an estimated 0.6672%. "


So the larger countries made less than 0.1% as much money and global stability decreased half a percent point. And this accomplished what?

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James Morgan
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 04:13
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The reason not much is happening is for three main reasons:
1. The main African goverments are corrupt. A lot of them don't seem to be wanting to help their people.

2. The African communities cannot produce enough money through trade and econimics to sustain economic growth

3. Due to the debts the African countries owe, again it stops the countries sustaining an economic growth.

If we cut aid to goverments that wont use the extra money for corrupt reasons (which is what G8 are deciding to do) and we help not just fair trade but cut the export tax when they want to sell in other countries well help the countries gain and sustain an economic growth which in turn helps stops poverty.

Hello!
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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 04:17
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Cancellation of debt's has a huge effect on stock market's etc. - and a good one. Especially in Africa of course. The last time a large debt was cancelled (something to do with Kenya) profit of MEDC's (explained earlier in post) decreased by 0.078%. Global stability decreased by an estimated 0.6672%.

what does this mean? what do the numbers really represent? how do you know when the economy is 100% stable? what do you have to compare it to? Is it not possible that even a 0.001% shift in the stability of a system can cause serious malfunction or even complete breakdown.

to write off what i have said as BS is totally out of order when you yourself cannot explain what you are saying, you have given us no source values for comparison of the % figures you speak of. without all the facts that go into this magical result you may as well say that world economic stability was reduced by 42 banannas. and income was reduced by 6 forks. those % mean nothing as far as information on stability goes when used like that. but it was effected!.

just how big a shift is 0.6672% in the grand scheme of things, bearing in mind that 1% of $1,000,000 is ten grand. and were not talking about just one country, were talking about all 3rd world debt. an enormous helping of cash pie. and it's debt and should be payed back, just as you would expect to be paid for doing a job.

mmmm....computer....
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Oraculaca
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 05:03
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Quote: "Sorry but this is a decease that is passed on either genetically in a weakened state or through sexual intercourse (or other large bodily fluid exchanges). There is a quite simple solution to prevent it the same solution Doctors tell you here. DO NO SCREW ANYONE ELSE!"


and what about all those who recieved it through infected blood donors.Or the fact that some Africans on the advice of 'Witch Doctors' are told to have sex with virgins to cure themselves and therefore rape the first child they see. Does the child have a choice?
Quote: "Sorry, but the problems in Africa aren't our fault."

That dosnt mean we sit back and do nowt. Because the country is ran poorly does that mean we should sat back and watch its people die? Corruption may be widespread in Africa but those who are dying are the innocents who deserve just as much right to live(if not more) than you.

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SageTech
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 05:17
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I say its fine that theirs an event that raises money. That a fine idea. But to forget all debts is just plan moronic! Sorry, but thats not how things work, and if thats how it's gonna go down, were all royaly screwed. Wouldnt you be extreamly mad if your country forgave all the debts that some country just took and gave to their currupt dictatorship? Lets face it, It's not the U.S's job to go to every country and build up their infastructure. Were already in Iraq,which isnt as poor or currupt as some other countries are. Imagine what we would get into doing this for a country such as, say, sudan?

forum.Sagetechsoftware.com. Post at em' will ya?
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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 05:21
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Quote: "what does this mean? what do the numbers really represent? how do you know when the economy is 100% stable? what do you have to compare it to? Is it not possible that even a 0.001% shift in the stability of a system can cause serious malfunction or even complete breakdown."


Nothing - that's my point.

Cancelling debt has practically not effect on the world. People objecting to this usually have some silly underlying issue or believe in some stuupid myth. I think the current stability in Africa is what we should care about, instead of our own benefit and stability

Were supposed to be helping them after all.

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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 06:09
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The best thing for AIDS is to let it run it's course, There are lots of cases of natural immunity occurring in some african communities, When a disease like aids or flu comes around it arrives with a purpose, to kill people. nature made this happen and who are we to stop it. After all when you interfere with the natural evolution of diseases and viri you create super strains which are almost impossible to combat using traditional medicines. this happens because the disease is forced to adapt to the chemicals used to fight it causing accellerated genetic change in the virus, these changes bring with them a whole host of new challanges and problems to solve and will probably kill more people than the original strain, nature never regresses it only moves forward. Look at the problems we now face because of the cures we have made in the past. more and more 'wiped out' diseases of old are now back with a severe pissed off attitude. Imagine aids becoming air-born because some twit somewhere in a lab coat developed a medicine that forced the virus DNA into mutation, then you could catch HIV through a conversation without having to 'get it on.' If we cure aids before it's run it's natural course, I dread to see what nature comes up with as a replacement, because it will, it's inevitable.

just leave things well alone, and the 'human world' will survive longer, and the world's population is a little bit more important than that of africa. It's how nature 'intended' it to be, harsh.

Survival of the fittest, if everone is the fittest then were doomed because then we all become average and nature will find a way to split us back into competing populations by exterminating most of us through disease.

mabey I have the advantage of not allowing my line of thought to be clouded by socially influenced morals or religeon on this case. Letting nature run it's course is always the right thing to do from an 'observers' point of view, no matter how harsh or evil it may seem to be.

And remember folks, Humans are the most destructive species that nature has come up with... so far.... I think it knows what it's doing better than we do.

I appologise for using the term nature as a living entity, when in actual fact it's just a set of rules that governs the mirical of life, evolution and death.

mmmm....computer....
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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 06:21
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@ david r
your last post was pointless and answers nothing. and if the figures mean nothing then why did you even bother to post them? for no reason? or to tell us nothing.?

mmmm....computer....
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James Morgan
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 06:56
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To point out that it does not affect our economy!

@greecee3

Let it run its course? If your parents were killed when you were 2 years old and you had to look after your two sisters all by your self at the age of 11 all because someone said let AIDS take its course I dont think you would feel the same. If the plague came back the great britain and we were left to die, im sure you would be wishing the other countries came and helped us out, even if it was our own fault!

I think its very hard to understand what is going on there, most people are born with AIDs over there and they are born in poverty, it is not their fault. If you were watching Hyde Park earlier, im sure you saw when Maddona was on, there was a young african women with here who had 20 minutes to live due to starvation but thanx to live aid 20 years ago she is very healthy and just past her agriculture degree. Dont you think it would be great if we could make more people in poverty turn out like that?

Hello!
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Eddie B
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 07:24
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geecee3, You have the same view as my dad

Email's Checked every 10 Minutes.. Go one , You Check yours
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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 07:47
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I have lost friends to aids, I have lost family to cancer, I am myself recovering from a biopsy to see if i have cancer. (which i only had done to please my family, and nothing to do with self preservation. if nature selects me for termination, then so be it.) and don't even suggest what a harsh life is to me, I was abandoned on the streets of london by my b'stard father who buggered off to ireland to fight for the 'cause' my mother never seen me for years and thought i was dead, yes my father is a terrorist and I have to live with that. I've been on the street starving. I've had nowhere to live in the middle of winter, no one close by to turn to. no-one offering help, so i helped myself. I now live back in edinburgh where I was originally born, and where aids is rife. It was the AIDS capitol of the world until africa took over, people here were dropping like flies at one time. I don't need to see starving women or people dying from aids to make me aware of it's existance, i've seen that first hand. and I accept that's how it is and how nature intended it to be. I have never claimed money from this government, even when i am entitled to. I also do a lot of work for kids charities and shelter (homeless charity) right here in scotland. and donate all my used equipment to them as well. so i'm not all bad.

I'm all for 'educating' these people, but wiping out the debt is not the answer, educating them how to pull themselvs out of poverty is the best way forward no matter how long it takes, and people will die it's sad but true.

mmmm....computer....
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Eddie B
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 07:49
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True True

*Tries not to cry*

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Raven
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 08:12
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You asked me why I didn't agree with the event, and that is exactly what I gave.

Simply because my answer is not what you wish to hear, or want to agree with doesn't stop it being a valid opinion. Despite you feeling that my veiws are sick to your own moral code or not, doesn't make what I said any less true.

It's quite typical that the second someone mentions something you don't like instantly it's "wrong". Grow up, this is all a hall of opinion. Now what you have to hope is that the world leaders have opinions similar to yours and not mine if you fancy Africa actually being helped in the limited way you expect.

Even if your opinions win this time, through this event. I'll bet that we'll be back a this point within 10years.

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David T
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 08:21
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Quote: "Live Aid ... raised millions of pounds, did lots of good stuff"


I remember seeing a documentary where the presenter asked an African person about Live Aid. They asked if it had had an effect on their lives.

They said "no, but they got new guns" and she pointed to a local soldier.

I'm all for aid, but make it long term aid. Encourage and stimulate growth, don't give them sacks of food. Give them animals to get food from.

As for the whole current live 8 thing I agree with the premise but all these wristbands have got anoying and to commercialised.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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empty
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 08:28
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Pink Floyd reunited for Live 8. Miracles happen!!!


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.073
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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 08:34
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Live aid prolonged the suffering of millions, and got a lot of people killed with shiny new guns.

mmmm....computer....
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Eddie B
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 08:39
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Quote: " Live aid prolonged the suffering of millions, and got a lot of people killed with shiny new guns."


Grant honislty if you swapped places with my dad, I probobley would know the differance.

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geecee3
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 09:24 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 09:41
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It's because i'm an old foggie young Edward. just like your dad and loads of other dads all over this united kingdom who have seen the world go from bad to worse to absolute sh!te. we only have opinions on stuff like this because we have comms. before radio, TV and the intaarweb came along we were pretty much oblivious to the goings on in the big wide world, now every tom dick and harry is setting up foreign aid charities and help the starving people websites, or flogging wristbands made in sweatshops for a good cause, and a good profit I may add. We have watched our home industries destroyed by cheaper foreign imported goods, we have watched 'made in great britain' go from meaning something special to meaning bugger all. we have watched our national prides be destroyed by sensless politicians trying to please the coffers of the already wealthy, British Gas, The National Coal Board, British Telecom were sold off, The yards on the Clyde etc. had to close due to a drop in shipping demand created by lower cost ships from the far east. We had the largest shipbuilding capacity in the world less than 50 years ago, now we have nothing of the sort. we have become a services driven nation making money from time and more money. We used to make steel, the best bloody steel in the world, but that's gone too. so you see Eddie, when you younger types think we should save africa from starvation, we older ordinary non geldof and stupidly wealthy folks are saying 'there's a lot needs done here as well' and it's easier to sort out our own problems than someone elses, but we can't even seem to do that properly, so what chance have we of really helping the 3rd world, how long has the 3rd world been the 3rd world. Does anyone know what this means? where's the second world? oh I see, it's a media TAG for poor countries, and it's often used as a buzz word when trying to get a point over or get you to part with money to save someone you don't even know.

you'll get older one day eddie, you'll look back and say what the franchesca did we do wrong. same as every generation does.


this is a good definition of third world

A name that came into use during the 1960s to distinguish the rest of the world from the two Cold War power blocs of the capitalist west (United States and Europe) and the Communist east (Soviet Union, eastern Europe and China). These were the first and second worlds, respectively; the rest was the Third World.
www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/browse/glossary.html

so now the cold war is over, does the third world really exist, or is everyone just sucked into a media buzz word.

mmmm....computer....
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Eddie B
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 09:30
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I am with you all the way.. I maybe young . But I understand whats around me.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 09:48 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 09:54
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Quote: "
Sorry, but the problems in Africa aren't our fault.
"


Actually quite a lot of them are. What you've got to remember is that for the best part of 300 years most of Africa were colonies that belonged to an Empire (i.e. the British or French Empires). Woodrow Wilson had wanted to get rid of these back in 1918, it was one of his fourteen points that he wanted to have included in the treaty of Versailles (can't spell, sorry) but never worked its way in.

After the end of World War 2 Americas economy was actually better off than it was before the war, so they were the only power in the position to help out the practically Bankrupt Europien nations. America agreed to give aid to Europe, but in return we had to give up our colonies. Britian and France were so desperate for the USs cash that they droped the African colonies as quickly as they could, leaving them unable to cope as many of them weren't able to cope alone (through no fault of their own). This eventually allowed corrupt governments to creep in etc and thats when the problems began.

Africa should be one be the richest continent on the globe, it has masses of oil, diamonds and minerals that could make it incridibly rich but many of these areas are contested by governments and rebel groups.

Wiping out the debt to Africa will have no major impacts, other than helping the African nations - the amount of money that they give compared to the amout of money MEDCs make is miniscule.

HIV/AIDs cannot be cured because its a virus, virus cannot be 'killed' there is some debate as to weather they're actually alive. As someone mentioned above the reason we can't cure the common cold is because it mutates so much, the HIV virus mutates more in a person in a single day than the cold virus does in a year.

Edit:

The reason why Britian isn't such a great ship building nation, or a great sea born trader is because of the closure of the London Docks. The London docks were first built in the 18th centuary, for 18th centuary ships. Over the years they expanded and were upgraded, but nothing really changed until the 20th centuary where new cargo handling methods were created. The docks were all but wiped out during the Blitz in the 1940s, but they were rebuilt after WW2. As London was a large city there was no room for the docks to expand, so they remained the same as they were before the war. Unfortunatly they couldn't fit in the new cargo ships that were invented, nor was there enough space for the cargo crates. Compition from Europe and America quickly killed them off, as well as many of the other docks. Another contributing factor was the loss of our Empire. After the Empire was gone Britian no longer held a monopoly on the goods from the colonies, so trade that used to be exclusively ours was spread out.

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
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Oneka
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 10:05 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2005 10:05
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I wanna say something but I dont want to get into this one...Killswitch and others have said what Ive wanted to say against what Raven said...

Making better games everday!
Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
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Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2005 10:24
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Quote: "Also you also have to take into account the amount of money it takes to wipe out the debt, the amount of administrative hullabaloo it would all have to go through, the amount of legal wrangeling and backstabbing, all the while costing yet more money and denting confidence in the worlds trading economies. We cannot afford to upset the international stock markets with such a large shift or cancallation of debt. it's just not workable without there being a lot of business casualties. Who pays for the Admin and legal costs of such a move?"


The Administrative and legal costs are tiny compared to the huge potential benefits of debt cancellation. By cancelling debt, and encouraging growth in Africa, we could encourage those countries to not only become self-sufficient, but also create new markets for western countries as well as opening up new opportunities for direct investment into Third-World countries. In the long-term, this makes a great deal of economic sense from a selfish perspective, and I haven't even mentioned the huge moral responsibility we have towards those living in Africa.

Stock market confidence is far more heavily influenced by oil prices and currency fluctuations than the impact of debt cancellation. Most of the countries who are set to receive a release from debt repayments cannot afford them in the first place, they merely act as a constraint on economic growth. This means that the impact on the revenue streams of major banks is likely to be fairly minor.

Having said that, there is a good case for moving in stages, and focusing on those countries whoose debt exceeds their GDP to start with.


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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 6th Jul 2005 01:53
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Quote: "and if you think i'm harsh, look at the history of scotland and then tell me i'm harsh. we have been shafted to breaking point for the entire duration of our history, all our oil is foreign owned, most of our land is foreign owned, our country is controlled by a foriegn power (westminster, even though we have our own parlament) how about giving us back our country as a good will gesture or because it's the 'right thing to do' or how about giving back the land we stole from palastine to house the Jews, or how about the USA doing away with reservations and declaring Native American Indians the true owners of that slab of land. no? well why should I care about the rest of the world and wether they are making enough money while my country and it's population are still being bent over."


geecee, im not scottish myself, but i've always been a fan of scotland and a pro-scottish-independance person. Knowing the history of scotland, i know how much the scot's have been screwed over, I'm happy to see that ~750 yrs on theres still people like you who hold scottish pride

once i take over the world, i'm going to let scotland free, and let you be it's king. we can rule the world together, except i'll have the larger portion

i'll even fund the construction of a giant trebuchet at striling for you to fire at the brits from.
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BatVink
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Posted: 6th Jul 2005 17:26
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Quote: "The Afrians have dug themselves into the mess they are in, not us."

Shame on them for years of drought, they should know better.


AND PLEASE! for all those who quoted me saying "It raised millions of pounds, did lots of good stuff...", it actually read "It raised millions of pounds, did lots of good stuff, but now it's obvious that raising money is pointless...", which puts it in a completely different context!!!!

BatVink
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Van B
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Posted: 6th Jul 2005 20:02
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Whoah GeeCee you can rant!

I gotta say I agree with what your saying.

Personally I think there's a lot of activist using this for there own agenda, like they're vandalising McDonalds branches and expensive cars. That's just stupid and it's completely nothing to do with what Live8 is all about. That's the annoying thing about these demonstrations - the people who actually give a shit about the issues can't get their point across because of the idiot quotent who're more interested in standing up for their 'rights' and inherited opinions, which usually just involves rioting with the police.

I'm too synical I suppose, I refuse to believe that cancelling any debt would'nt nip us right back in the ass - like we all argue this and the governments go 'yeah ok ok', well then that's a freakin huge excuse to increase taxes, and so the people who are too busy working to demonstrate their views get shafted once more.

But more importantly, Pink Floyd and The Who kicked ass, I'd rather have seen them play all night.


Van-B

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 7th Jul 2005 02:42 Edited at: 7th Jul 2005 02:43
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You could get over to Murrayfield tonight Van B and catch the Beddingfields in action

The vandalism is disgusting I live about 5 miles from Stirling and the police are everywhere. I counted 53 police vans passing me this morning all with their lights flashing away. I just heard that Stirling Infirmary was targeted as well. What the hell is the point in that?

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 7th Jul 2005 03:43
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wow, all 8 of the worlds most powerful leaders in one place at the same time?!?!?! wow... where did i leave my C4's?
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