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Geek Culture / We will NEVER find life on other planets

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Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 18:47
We will NEVER find life on other planets. It's as simple as that. So why get upset? At least our PCs can be occupied when they are idle (SETI) and 1000s of scientists can find employment trying hear some intelligible noises from afar.

But, as I said before We will NEVER find life on other planets.

Which also puts an end to the fav CULTURAL MYTH of many - the UFO!

THERE AREN'T ANY!

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BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 18:50
And who are you to break this news to the scientific community

Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 18:52
So, you would like the evidence, huh? (Hold on to your PHDs...)

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BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:04 Edited at: 21st Jul 2005 19:05
Yes I want to see your argument. Im neutral to the subject so maybe youll make me a non-believer

Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:07
You sound so certain about this, so very very certain.

But the one thing we can be certain of in this life: Humans are uncertain, we change our minds and beliefs and history every day to suit what we learn.

If I believed a human being could even guage the real size of the universe, then I might be 0.1% more likely to pay mind to these sorts of statements.


Van-B

BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:13
Hes got a point this huge universe and we're the only ones doesnt seem logical to me.

Kentaree
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:14
I must say you have persuaded me with your overwhelming evidence and hardly researched theories, all alien life is disproved!


Idiot...

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BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:16
again another point

Mnemonix
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:17
Quote: "
Which also puts an end to the fav CULTURAL MYTH of many - the UFO!

THERE AREN'T ANY!
"


By definition, it has been proved that they do exist. How moronic a statement is that.
UFO = Unidentified Flying Object

If you see something flying, and you dont know what it is, then guess what...ITS A FLAMING UFO*. It doesnt have to be associated with aliens.

It seems to me as though this thread has been created to stir up a ruccus.

*especially if its on fire.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:21
Quote: "We will NEVER find life on other planets."

We could put you on mars and pretend we discovered you there. Though, we wouldn't be able to say we found. intelligent life..


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:23 Edited at: 21st Jul 2005 19:24
Haha good one.
You are obviously desperately mistaken.

There used to be life on the planet Skaro before it got destroyed. I now have its inhabitants in my army. so THERE.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:24
Ben, you wouldn't want to go around polluting the place either

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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:28
Quote: " Ben, you wouldn't want to go around polluting the place either"

Ah thinking about the environment are we now?


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Eric T
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:31
Man Jasonio, you should be made head of all research and development at MIT. Your a genious!

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 19:32
Quote: "We will NEVER find life on other planets."


Who says I'm from Earth?

JerBil
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:07
Quote: "Who says I'm from Earth?
"


You're from Georgia. Thats almost on Earth...


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Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:13
To know that, in our lifetimes, we will never find life (intelligent) on other planets, we
have to look at a number of important factors:

0. The distribution of matter within the galaxy during it's formation (particularly in the vicinity of our solar system.)
1. The creation of the sun (the mass and gases of the sun)
2. The creation of the solar system (the balance and distribution of matter - if jupiter and saturn had not sucked up most of the remaining matter in their positions perhaps they could have formed further in towards the sun and therefore occupied the 'temperate orbit zone'.)
3. The creation of the earth (what happened to the earth during it's formation - a popular theory
suggests that another planet collided with our own and the ejected matter formed into the moon - which
created the monthly cycle that is so important to nearly every creatures life cycle on the earth, created a friction in the masses of water which may have been a fundamental fact in the mixing of chemicals that in the end created life.)
4. The elements that make the earth and it's mass (the materials which form the earth, creating a particular mass.)
5. The speed of the earths rotation, axis and orbit (a constant gravity/day and night/the seasons/a year. All cyclical rhythms for life.)
6. The orbit of the earth and the other planets. (it's distance from the sun and other planets. Look at the contrasts in weather just within our hemisphere.I mention the'temperate orbit zone' again.)

7. The atmosphere (protected by a strong magnetic field which could have weakened over time, followed by an evolved atmosphere that just happened to be a perfect protection from most dangers from space. made up of the products of many processes including algae - which consume carbon dioxide and excrete oxygen, a immense amount of gases that protect us from the solar wind that makes it through the magnetic field.)

8. Genesis - once all these factors had been settled somewhat about 4 billion years agp, the development of a basis for life had to begin.
The gene. Now noone really knows how life began on earth. But all the factors above had to be just right
just for it to begin. Life then changed the atmosphere and it's environment by 'upsetting' the balance of gases in the atmosphere and was able to evolve more complex organisms.

9. At any point during this development another collision with a large heavenly body could have wiped out everything.

10. http://www2.glos.ac.uk/gdn/origins/life/ch1_1.htm "If there was photosynthesis at 3.7-3.9 billion years ago, then more primitive life forms must have existed well before this time." But how could they feed themselves? If photosynthesis turns out to be the genesis of all life - eg: the beginning of energy distribution throughout all species then how could anything evolve without light. Organisms exist without light- true - but they feed off of the waste products of those that did. The food chain. Without a food chain you need an extra terrestrial source of energy. Like the sun.

11. When you factor in all these events and conditions, the odds of the human race (or any intelligent race) existing at any point in the universe (or galaxy) are nearly insurmountable. BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. But the distribution would be SPARSE. Douglas Adams correctly postulised that the "average population of the universe is zero."

12. Even if a race of intelligent beings did exist, the likelyness of a race existing long enough to evolve, sending a signal fromt their planet that arrives just in time for us to evolve far enough to hear it and then recieve a reply over interstella distances without it being degraded to background noise (likely to be millions of years) is unlikely.

Hope that's reason enough for you.. odds stacked well in favour of us being utterly alone in the universe (or at least galaxy - not that it matters at current speeds we are unable to reach the nearest start in less than say 100,000 years..) ... not that I think we should stop looking... we might be lucky.. and lots of scientist would be jobless without contradicting my arguement...

My question to you is: Why do we want there to be life on other planets?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:17 Edited at: 21st Jul 2005 20:20
Whilst the chances of finding life anywhere are very remote (especially in our galaxy), the possibility exists, even if this probability is very small.

Unfortunately the only way that we'll ever know is if we can explore vast distances very quickly (using some sort of FTL drive for example).

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dark coder
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:23
also isnt the important fact that were only scanning using the speed of light, ie radiowaves and visual, even if there were aliens in another galaxy we would probably never see any message for billions of years


Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:25
Yes, and some African tribes still believe that if they get their photograph taken, the photographer steals their soul.

Mankind has scoured this earth getting by on a lucky streak of convenient accidents - it pure ignorance and arrogance to believe that we're in any way unique or special in this vast universe.

It's like a microbe arguing with another microbe about the existance of tofu.


Van-B

Damokles
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:32
Jasonio, your arguments seem persuasive. But I see you have not much knowledge in sciences, so of your "facts" are totally wrong.

- Mind the gap -
BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:50
I believe we are very unique and have our place in this universe. But I also believe there has to be other unique creatures out there with the ability of science and mathmatics and the possibilty that there more correct method of thinking.

What if the life we find is much smarter and they turn out to be hostile. We would be helpless. Just think of the helpless Africans during the European colonazation of the contient.

Anomaly
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:52
Not everything you listed is a requirement for life, maybe for us but not every form of life.
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:53
If time and space are infinite then anything that can happen will happen. ... eventualy


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 20:59
1 - There are many suns out there, ours isn't unique, it's just.. well.. here.

2 - Our solar system is just one (very very small) part of something much bigger. So large most people can't even comprehend it. It is not a blue print for the whole of space, just our teeny tiny corner of it.

3 - Yes, a popular theory (and one I won't argue with) - but you've got to admit, if it can happen here - why can't it happen elsewhere? I mean there are how many planets out there? More than we could ever mathmatically count at any rate. More importantly - we *don't know* how the earth was formed. We just speculate. Educated speculation, yes - but speculation all the same. Let's face it - we could have got it totally wrong (it wouldn't be the first time)

4 - Again, nothing unique here.

5/6 - Did it ever occur to you that life adapted to fit into those very same seasons/days? To the point that yes it now requires them, but who's to say how the plants etc may have evolved differently given a longer day/different seasons, etc? Plants grow and animals live perfectly in the extremes of our planet where the seasons and day/night cycles are utterly whacked in comparison to the rest of the world. If they can manage it, so could the rest of the planet, had they had to.

7/8 - Yup, but to say it's impossible to happen elsewhere is a bit strange.

9 - And it still could!

10 - The argument only holds any weight if you believe that photosynthesis IS the genesis of all life. There's no rock solid evidence to prove that and I doubt there ever will be. Life exists and flourishes in some of the darkest places on our planet where not a single ray of light ever touches.

11 - Douglas Adams, the well known scientist You're right, we don't have any humanoid immediate neighbours, but we cannot spread far enough, or see far enough to rule out life "down the street" yet, let alone in the next town or country (metaphorically speaking of course)

12 - Yes, but it's still just "unlikely" - not impossible.

There are so many things we don't understand about the way the human body works!, let alone our own planet, let alone our solar system and let alone beyond that!, that I feel it's rather presumptuous for anyone (scientist or not) to be able to categorically state *anything* at all as being "fact" or "its most likely that..." - we don't know the half of it, and it's the quest for knowledge that drives those thousands of scientists on, not the quest for life.

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.
Anomaly
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 21:05
Life doesn't require day/night, there are some theories life may not even require water. Life adapts to the environment not the other way around.
The admiral
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 21:17
Even if they existed they would be too far away fro us to reach but no I dont think there is anything out there otherwise they would probably have found us.

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Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 21:43
I had a discussion a bit like this with my mom not so long ago, she could'nt imagine how we would have survived without fire, like for one second imagine that fire does'nt exist.

Basically we evolved like this because we started cooking our food and staying warm - if we hadn't discovered fire then we'd probably look very different, it's the fact that people who discovered fire survived better than those that did'nt that makes us these bald-looking monkey mongrels. Every form of life evolves to what it needs to be - same goes for any part of this planet, and any part of any other planet that might support life - all it needs is a few billion years of trial and error to make intelligent life.


Van-B

Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 22:17
Quote: "But I see you have not much knowledge in sciences, so of your "facts" are totally wrong."


Thats a sweeping statement, which bit?

Quote: "Basically we evolved like this because we started cooking our food and staying warm "


Now this is an interesting snippet - when did we start to use fire? Before homosapiens or after?

Quote: "Not everything you listed is a requirement for life, maybe for us but not every form of life."


But they are fundamental reasons why WE are here. I'm suggesting that it takes a hell of a lot of chance just to get a ball of rock in the right place, the right size, for anything to have even a chance of starting. And the more we determine about the origins of earth, the more fragile our existence becomes.

Quote: "The argument only holds any weight if you believe that photosynthesis IS the genesis of all life. There's no rock solid evidence to prove that and I doubt there ever will be. Life exists and flourishes in some of the darkest places on our planet where not a single ray of light ever touches."


This is my other favorite statement of controversy, in answer to this quote: EVERYTHING will be known in the end - if we get long enough to find it out - we will know EVERYTHING. Even the future.

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Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 22:41
Quote: "when did we start to use fire? Before homosapiens or after?"


Who can say? - Well I think that we discovered fire while making tools or weapons, so a reasonably capable brain would have to have been involved. The main thing is our diet - we started cooking our meat, this probably had a huge impact on our evolution. But also, even over the last 200 years, if it had'nt been for that ancient discovery we could'nt smelt metals and there would be no industrial revolution. So perhaps the ability for a planet to produce fire (of some sort) is vital to intelligent life.


Van-B

Rob K
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 22:57
Quote: "EVERYTHING will be known in the end - if we get long enough to find it out - we will know EVERYTHING. Even the future.
"


That'll be a bit of a bummer for William Hill and Ladbrokes then.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:26
How do we expect to find intelligent life on other planets if we can barly find it on Earth.


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Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:35
Quote: "How do we expect to find intelligent life on other planets if we can barly find it on Earth"


Been watching Monty Python's meaning of life again, Megaton?!

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:37
Atleast you didn't say "Megatron"...


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Manuel Marino
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:42
I don't think "We will NEVER find life on other planets" to be an accurate statement. Probably you used those words to just create a nice flame... and well, the thread is cool so go ahead!

But an accurate statement could have been "We will never be able to accept the idea of life on other planets without facing a major changing in our society".

All of us in this thread are open minded people, but 9 on 10 guys on earth would panic if an alien would ever land and say HELLO.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:45
Quote: "This is my other favorite statement of controversy, in answer to this quote: EVERYTHING will be known in the end - if we get long enough to find it out - we will know EVERYTHING. Even the future."


Maybe we will know "everything" in the end, but how will we know when we know everything?

More tea Vicar?
Anomaly
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Posted: 21st Jul 2005 23:50 Edited at: 21st Jul 2005 23:52
Quote: "But they are fundamental reasons why WE are here."

There are places life can exist where we can't. Is this post about other life existing, or exact copies of humans existing?

Quote: "I'm suggesting that it takes a hell of a lot of chance just to get a ball of rock in the right place, the right size, for anything to have even a chance of starting."

Sooner or later a planet will be in the right place.
Oneka
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2005 02:10
The one thing I dont get is how everyone talks about life existing on our levels...Iam pretty sure live on a different level then ours could develop without the essential elements we need to survive P

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Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2005 02:21
Didn't we just discuss all this a few threads ago?

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Manuel Marino
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Wait, what do you mean when you say "life on a different level?"

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Jimmy
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You've all seen Battlestar Galactica, they will come to us.

We may need to build it, but they will come.

Lost in Thought
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Quote: "You're from Georgia. Thats almost on Earth..."


Just because I live somewhere doesn't mean I was born there ... I very much doubt most of the people here was born in cyberspace

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Posted: 22nd Jul 2005 20:49
Quote: "Just because I live somewhere doesn't mean I was born there "


Ok, ok. Don't get your antenna in a knot. You aliens do have antennas
don't you?

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I say when they Aliens invade, we take the battle...INTO THE COURTS! SUE THEM! SUE THEM ALL!!!

mahahahahahhahahaa


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SageTech
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2005 23:30 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2005 23:32
Quote: "There used to be life on the planet Skaro before it got destroyed. I now have its inhabitants in my army. so THERE"


Want to pair up with the army of n00bs? As for the Alien discussion, you dont know aliens dont exist, humans truly dont know anything for sure. Remember humans only use about 10% of their brain, so it is impossible for us to know if life indeed exist in other places then earth. All we really can do is wait, and if the world is invaded by aleins, then the ufo freaks will give a big, "i told you so" to all who doubted them. And if the aleins dont come becouse they dont exist or are just catching reruns of the twilight zone then well send all the ufo freaks to the mental enstittution(see yall there hahahaahahahah)

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Oneka
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2005 23:37
about that 10% thing...I dont think I would want to use 100 of my brain becuase that mean I would have to control everthing like making my heart beat telling cells what to do....let myself know when iam hungry....etc etc....but I think I would control my muscles mass xD anyway....if aliens are real....expect a new Barn Porno genre.....

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Redmotion
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2005 00:32
Quote: "about that 10% thing...I dont think I would want to use 100 of my brain becuase that mean I would have to control everthing like making my heart beat telling cells what to do"


Yep - you move your finger - and it moves! (isn't it amazing!) but a lot had to happen just to make your finger move - but the brain automates all these other complex tasks to a kind of background function - instinct?

Anyway back to the knowing everything: We wouldn't personally KNOW everything at a single point in time - but we could have instant access to all that is known - Networked intelligence. All of logged into a wireless, worldwide network, using the combined power of all our brains to do calculations. You could rent your brain out to companies. Think of Grid computing and then chuck in a million humans.

And once the fundamental structure of the universe is known - the future will be predictable from where every drop of rain will fall to the very moment life will cease to exist on the planet. We already predict the future - we predict where planets will be by the time a ship reaches it. It doesn't take much to know the future if you think about it. Add in more information - certainties - we can predict more - and so on - like a snowball...

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Jimmy
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2005 02:32
Quote: "Think of Grid computing and then chuck in a million humans."


That sounds a lot like a bad Keanu Reeves movie.

Quote: "As for the Alien discussion, you dont know aliens dont exist, humans truly dont know anything for sure."


That's not the discussion here. It's not whether or not they exist, but whether or not we, as stupid humans, will find them. So, in light of that being the actual topic, which most of you have missed, I think Jasonio actually has some good points.

I also think spanish rice is better than lime rice.

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Posted: 23rd Jul 2005 10:22
This is pointless.

The probibility of finding life by shooting in the dark is indeed low, but though out incompence we look for planets that "may" have water, and thus "may" have life. Now how can we do that, you ask, well there is something called a spectrometer, and this spectrometer will break up light into its primary components. What use is that, you ask, well... every element has it's own unique spectrograph so you can tell what elements are present in a planet.

And "Life" can exist on the simplest levels... it is still life, and by far the most common. Even microrganisms can provide means to an end. NASA isn't really all about finding aleins so we can "kill them" then steal their technology. It is about exploration. America would be a free land with herds of buffolo if it weren't for exploration. Just imagine what we will do while "exploring" space.

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Manuel Marino
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2005 11:31
Did you see the movie The Forgotten? After we've seen it a friend began to laugh telling us how many stupid people believe such things and so on... well, if you've seen the film you know what's my question... what's your opinion?

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