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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Lighting help for Neverwinter nights type tile-engine

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 03:12
Hello

Was wondering what my best choice of lighting would be for a planned 3D tile engine. I don't know much about DBP lighing. Will I have to use a shader of some kind? The levels are going to be assembled with .x tiles.

Here's an example of a bland colorless level, which is NOT what I want.


This is what I want the finished result to look like:


Thanks for any suggestions


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MikeS
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 03:18
I'd definitly have a look through the shader thread for the per-pixel lighting shader. In fact, I'll find it for you right now.

(Half way down the page)
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=49137&b=1&p=1

I can never honostly resist a dungeon with per-pixel lighting and bump mapping.
(Screenshot from prototype engine)


The DBP lighting(Well, D3D lighting that is) really can't do a nice looking level like that justice. Be sure to look into any bump mapping topics that you can to make that level look pretty. I know I've posted a few topics on this board in the past about it, so take a look. If you need help generating normal maps, look into Gimp2.0+nVidia normal filter(or wait for my program to generate normal maps.).



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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 04:18 Edited at: 31st Jul 2005 04:21
I checked out evolved's bumpmap/lighting demo and gota say it's pretty immpressive. But how intensive is it? I had like one small room loaded and my fps was down to 30.

Anyway, I don't really need any particularly fancy bumpmap or reflection shader, I just want a nice, ambient light shader to get the same result as the pic I showed above. Is it possible to adopt that shader engine you showed me to get those results?

Also, dunno if it makes much difference or not, but I'm also trying to aim for a cartoony look. Here are what my un-lighted levels look like so far:



Thanks in advance


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MikeS
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 04:32
Well, you really have three options now if you don't want to use shaders.

1.) Use DBP's lighting. This will be least intense, but probably won't create as great an atmosphere, for they're somewhat limited.

2.) Lightmapping. Probably another good option, but this will also knock down your fps.

3.) Vertice colors. This in combination with DBP's lighting might be the best choice. Since messing with vertice colors can help create some shadows, or that extra cartoony look, without any hit in performance(For the verts are already there, they just need to change colors).

If anything, try to investigate into vertice colors and DBP's lighting. Van-B, Kevil, and DeathBed(formerly Kang2) are the experts in this area. You can however manually color vertice's in gamespace,truespace6.6, and maybe even gamespace light(free!).

Might also want to hang around for some others to reply, and check out GameDev and flipcode. I'm no expert.



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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 04:50 Edited at: 31st Jul 2005 04:53
I didn't say I don't want to use shaders at all. I said I wanted a dumbed-down shader only for ambient lighting that is better then the D3D lighting.

Quote: "2.) Lightmapping. Probably another good option, but this will also knock down your fps."


Was my original plan. Kinda elminates the point of a tile-based engine don't you think? Although I COULD slice the map into seperate chuncks and only load the ones the player is standing on, it would be a huge waste considering I would be getting way larger filesizes then if I went with the tile engine.

I'll wait for more people to post, and look into vertex colours. Thanks alot for your help.




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Raven
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 05:55
Neverwinter uses a combination of two lighting systems.

a) Static Lightmaps. They're built as you load the dungeon based on the lights available. Given the reasonably uncomplex nature of the dungeons (ie not many polygons) you can built lightmaps in a very very short amount of time.

b) Dynamic Lightmaps. This is used mainly for the player, where the players lightmap dynamically interacts with the level. Stuff like that is a pig to develop, however in both cases your looking at physically dropping 5fps max even on an old TNT2 card.

The techniques rely more on processor speed, and I can easily see a Pentium III 500MHz being able to handle it without much problem. Shaders are seeming to be what people want to use, and creating one just to light the level in a very nice high-resolution way isn't much of an issue really. For Shader hardware again your looking at a small speed loss overal, but probably be something around 20fps.

Though you would be limiting yourself to who can play the game, and how quickly. Once you get into the realm of Normal Map Lighting, then your going to watch your FPS just plummet on the budget cards.

I'd say find out a game that has the level of detail your looking for and stick with it. I think Baulder's Gate Dark Alliance on the X-Box and GC does a very nice job with shaders without going overboard. It still uses lightmaps for the actual lighting but then blends them with each players accentuation light (which is a shader) Gives everything a nice bump when the player is close to it.

However given the distance these games are played at Bump Mapping over Normal let alone anything as complex as what Evo did is more than enough because players just won't notice the detail.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 1st Aug 2005 22:22 Edited at: 1st Aug 2005 22:23
I've solved my lighting problem. Thanks alot for the help everyone.

I've decided to go with a combination of lightmapping and tiling to get a decent result with lightning framerate.

Here are one of the levels in action:




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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 1st Aug 2005 23:17
NICE!!!!!!! Any chance of a mini-walkthrough on how you did that?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 1st Aug 2005 23:32
A) He lightmapped an object just right so it would look good tiled and the lighting wouldn't mess up at the edges.

B) Tada!


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 1st Aug 2005 23:36 Edited at: 1st Aug 2005 23:47
Basiclly what he said.

I created various 8x8 unit tiles (Most using 256x256 textures) assembeled some variations (Wall, wall_edge, Wall_door, floor, detail etc) and lightmapped them under the same lightsource in the same spot. I then simply tile them in an editor and the viewer is tricked into thinking it's a fully lightmapped level. Not only does this save me tonnes of framerate, but the overall level MB size is decreased by 90%.
(If I were to use one large lightmapped 3d object for the level that is)

What I was aiming for is the easy creation of 3D Diablo 2 style maps like this. Obviously this s only for testing purposes, as I will add many more wall variations, prefabs (desks, chairs, lamps, doors, etc) and more textures.




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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 00:04
Nice what software did you create that on because i noticed the little marker on the corner

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Keaz
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 00:30
Looks Sweet Megaton. I'm also planning something similar in a future project. I was going to use tiling to make the "Building" editor.

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IanM
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 00:45
I'd like to know which editor you are using too.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 01:24
Thanks for the comments.

I'm using Cshop for the mesh, Gile[s] for the lightmapping, and a DBP written editor to put it all together.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 03:40 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2005 03:41
Some more tile tests if you guys are interested. Will be part of the sci-fi and temple dungeons.




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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 03:41 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2005 03:42
Second pic




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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 05:05 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2005 05:06
third




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Erick G
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 07:50
looking snazzy man, cant wait to see it in action !
Raven
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 01:37
Multi-UV, or Multi-Mesh?
Looks the latter, but might be the blending mode.

Either way, I'm a little disappointed you didn't hand-code Lightmapping. Still nice effect.

JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 08:28
it's amaizing how much lighting does for a scene

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Phaelax
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 09:13
Quote: "it's amaizing how much lighting does for a scene"


And also, how much it can change your opinion of that chick you met in that dark bar.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 14:04
Quote: "Either way, I'm a little disappointed you didn't hand-code Lightmapping."


You're joiking right?

Anyway, thanks again for the comments everyone.


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David R
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 14:09
It is looking great, but what is it actually for?

I know your doing an RPG-style game, but can you give any more details?

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 14:14
Looks really cool. I always loved those games where you went from room to room like that cos you never knew what was behind that door. #Made it really tense. Diablo 2 was cool cos sometimes you couldn't see what was behind a door, but you could see a room there and sometimes you could even see the glowing of a hoofing great enemy!! Ahh I miss that game

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 14:56 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2005 15:12
Quote: "
I know your doing an RPG-style game, but can you give any more details?"


This honestly isn't my WIP thread for my game, as I just started the thread to ask for help but got carried away and posted a few level screens.

The shorest way to describe my game is D2 meets Halo and UT2004. And it's going to be online. Look for it in WIP board in a month or two.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 15:47
So is Giles any good for light map making then? Cos my games always look crappy for lighting - i'd like to get a program that can make a decent bump map or light map...

Did someone say they were making one themselves?

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Erick G
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2005 16:26
giles is awsome for making lightmaps, I recommend it.

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