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Geek Culture / Open Source 3D engines....

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Keaz
21
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 02:04 Edited at: 8th Aug 2005 02:25
I would like to know people's experience with open source engines. I have decided to go into developing in C++ and thought about getting Dark SDK(mainly because of ease of use). However at this point, I've decided not to because of the bugs issue. Basically if a bug is the as a developer I can't fix it. This is something a professional develop needs to be able to do(The IDE source is a great example). So now I'm looking at other Open source options and I'm new to this area so I need suggestions and why for that suggestion. The requirements and things I'm looking at are:

Power(what is it capable of and how fast)
Ease(Basically the learning curve)
Price(I'm not looking to pay $1000's of dollars for it.)
Open source(so I can fix bugs my self)
License(Need to produce commercial software)

Can anyone with experience in this help?

[Edit]VB/C++ doesn't matter as I haven't purchased either yet. So I'll take suggestions from both. Even a listing of open source commercially liscenseable 3D engines will work.

UnderLord
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 02:14
Dark Basic PRO.....Has all those things....well im not to sure about that license part but who knows.

DBP supports physics( i think), particles, and all that good stuff! and the best part about it is that once you've made some stuff it gets easyer everytime! muwah muwahahahaha. So anyhow have fun with your search.

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
Keaz
21
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Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 02:23
It's not open source:
With the source I could write my own bug fixes. With DBC/DBPro/SDK/Anything TGC I can't.

That's my reason to look else where. I have to be able to support my product and not depend on a third party developer, but I don't mind paying for the original framework.

Chenak
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 03:11
Ogre is alright, google it
Keaz
21
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 03:17 Edited at: 8th Aug 2005 03:25
Ok I've come accross a few. Has anyone tried any of these?
This one seems to have the best liscense: (Basically a do what ever you want type thing)
Irrlichthttp://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/features.html

This one seems to have alot more support and a bigger community.
Ogre3Dhttp://www.ogre3d.org/

Not to sure on this one
Genesis3Dhttp://www.genesis3d.com/

A really small one. (might be good for learning at best)
Bolt3dhttp://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7233/

Look fairly new and not entirely sure about the license. But it also states it has a steep learning curve. However the demos look awesome.
Crystal Spacehttp://community.crystalspace3d.org/tiki-index.php

MikeS
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 03:25
I'd go with Irrlicht. From what I've heard, it's easy to setup, has many different render modes(DX8.1,DX9,OGL,software,null device), and has quite a bit of documentation and tutorials. The license is very open as well, so you won't have to worry about royalties or anything. From what I know, OGRE is rapidily being developed, and is extremely powerful. Irrlicht is just about as strong, and very solid. Irrlicht or OGRE(which I don't know too much about) are your best options from what I know.



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Keaz
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Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 03:41
Well for the past few hours I've been searching and found I've narrowed it down to three and I'm looking for user experiences with each?

Irrlicht
Ogre
Crytal Space

Deep Thought 42
19
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Location: New Jersey, USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 05:46
If have time, there is a freeware/shareware section of this website under 3d software. [href]www.3dlinks.com[/href]

"Winners never quit and quitters never win. But those who never win and never quit are idiots."
Kevin Picone
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Location: Australia
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 06:08
Quote: "Open source(so I can fix bugs my self)"


That sounds a little overly optimistic to me.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic (Release V1.08 Out Now)
BearCDPOLD
21
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Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 07:56
I had to download a replacement string library or something for Ogre, but Irrlicht was a snap to set up, and much easier to figure out. The screenies look pretty too.


I'm going to eat you!
Keaz
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 08:46
Well thanks for the info BearCDP. I will continue to support these forums but alas it's time for me to move on to bigger and better things. I guess I'm going to need to do a side by side comparison of capabilities and look at some source code and the community size in order to make my decision.

Mr Underhill
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 09:35
I'll probably be moving on pretty soon, too. I'm reading C++ for dummies and I'm leaning towards OGRE myself (now that I've got it working in Dev-C++).

Good luck Keaz, I hope things work out well for you!
~Underhill

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JoelJ
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 09:41
i've looked at Irrlicht for C#.net myself and i quite like it, but i hear it's still a bit buggy. True Vision 3D (i believe it's for C++, and others, not sure as i only use C#) is really nice, but it costs for commercial licences and it's not os

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Undercover Steve
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Location: Vancouver, Little Canada(Washington)
Posted: 8th Aug 2005 09:50
any idea why irrlicht wouldnt work on my C# 03?:S I just used an example>.<
Raven
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 10:01
Depends what you plan to do with.
Personally I would suggest grabbing the Quake2 Source and Ogre3D.

The idea would not to use Ogre3D, but to see how it cross-platforms. Although the design is overly bulky, you cna slim it down to your needs.

Quake2 if you can get past Carmacks coding style is one of the best engine designs. Obviously it's extremely old now, but the modular design makes it very versitile. It is also very easy to understand what does what.

This is a key element if you ever hope to fix and alter an engine.
All of the third party engines are quite complex behind the scenes. Mainly this is to make sure they can adapt to any situation, but if your building the engine up yourself you don't need most of that stuff, just the concepts behind how it works.

A common mistake is to think that Quake2 is purely for FPS games. Although it's true that's it's original design and useage, it is quite a flexible engine when you get into it.

Some alterations to the formats and you can quickly, as well as easily enhance it with some more modern updates.

ODE is a very good Physics Engine that isn't overly complex (or large) which again can be extended and integrated fairly easily.

With all of these things however I'd recommend using them as templates to build your own engine rather than build up from them as a base.

Engines are pretty simple to create and extend once you have the initial aspect of communication and pipelines setup.
The features themselves often can be added as and when you understand how. Making sure there is a strong system for passing messages and setting up the pipelines for Sound, Networking, Graphics, etc. is key.

DirectX in this case can help you to do this too. Not as an API but in it's design. Everything in DirectX now is setup to be flexible and extendable using flag systems to declare what data to expect. Creating a similar system for your engine can help you to extend things without even needing to touch other areas.

Again this is part of a modular design, which on the whole provides you with a much easier time debugging as you can test everything seperately or together.

The best part of making you own engine has to be the fact that you know EXACTLY how it works.

Keaz
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 11:04 Edited at: 8th Aug 2005 15:54
Well Thx for the input after many Suggestions I had it narrowed to 2 OGRE and Irrlicht, but then I found RealmForge GDK, it's a full Game Development kit not just a 3D engine. It uses OGRE for 3D, Ode for physics and has alot more built in for networking, sound, AI etc... and it's open source under a very slightly restrictive, but fair license, basic if you modify it submit the modifications(you don't have to submit your game source though). All that and free. Considering I'm planning on moving to C++ or C# anyway it's turned out to be best best option I believe. I've seen OGRE in action and put that with the rest... For those who don't know about it.
Here's a link: http://realmforge.com/

[edit]One final note:I have also e-mail Rick about the possibility of custom licensing for the SDK. If this option is available I will be staying with TGC. I'm not above paying for a quality easy to use engine if the price is right and I can access the source to fix changes.

P.S.Didn't think I'd say this, but thx raven that was the most contructive post I've seen you write.

Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 12:20
I've used Genesis3D before. Mainly because it suppose Glide at the time. I think it's kinda died now.

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Undercover Steve
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 17:03
I would recommend using RealmForge. I used it before, but forgot what it was called
IanG
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 17:11
Irrlicht is good - I've used it before and it is very easy to use


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David R
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Posted: 8th Aug 2005 18:12
Yeah, I used Genesis for a while.

But it used a non-standard BSP format, that f*cked up when they ported to new versions. I'm pretty sure it is dead

I used Panda3d before too. It was weird, but pretty cool. Its open-source etc, but strangely, its made by Disney Can't remember the site name sadly (probably pand3d.org or something)


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