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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] OpenGL under Windows Vista

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Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 12:28
by now I'm no doubt sure that some of the more seasoned programmers around here are aware of the recent statment on OpenGL.org about Microsoft's latest Operating System, Vista.

For those who haven't basically the ghist of the report from OpenGL BOF at Siggraph, is that Windows Vista will only be supporting OpenGL 1.4 as an Application Layer (Wrapper) of DirectX.

• OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
• OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
• No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

I decided to keep researching the issues here, see what I could uncover and understand able the situation. Given I wasn't at Siggraph this year, and never got to hear Microsoft's annoucenment.

Now the reality of the situation is that the OpenGL community has taken something Microsoft has said, out of context.

Windows Vista's Driver System now is entirely dependant on DirectX Hardware Abstraction Layer. This is now part of the Kernel, where-as in XP it was just a library.



So you can be mistake for thinking that everything *must* use DirectX. This isn't really the case. The point of DirectX being integrated the way it is, is to enable much more direct hardware useage. In other words DirectX is quicker on Vista than any previous Windows. Given this is the same design as the X-Box Windows 2000 OS had, this would suggest a reasonable boost in speed.

Now it's true that OpenGL runs through GDI+ as an ICD. Thing is this has been true since Windows 95. OpenGL has *always* run through GDI on Windows. GDI is now run through DirectX.

So Software or Hardware at somepoint in order to physically output to the graphics card, the DirectX Drivers still need to support it. This said, given Windows Vista requires DirectX for the desktop. Not exactly a big deal.

Microsoft haven't dropped support for the High-Speed Driver ICD from the Hardware Manufacturers. This is a point that quite honestly I feel MUST be pointed out.

Evan Hart, ATi
Quote: "Since I was at the OpenGL BOF at SIGGRAPH where this was discussed, I would like to clarify a bit of what was mentioned.

First, there were two current paths for OpenGL on Vista mentioned. The first one is a DX wrapper, with its potential performance shortfalls and lack of extension support. The second path was a traditional ICD which when activated would force the desktop out of the compositing mode, but would allow performance and extensions.

Second, 3DLabs, ATI, and NVIDIA all pledged that they were dedicated to work with Microsoft to add the additional support necessary to make ICDs work seamlessly with the rest of the OS. There was an open request to have developers contact their Microsoft reps to express any concerns that they have over this.

Finally, this is all my personal take on the issue as an attendee at the BOF. I think an unfortunate bit about the issue in that it gets quickly caught up in FUD from all directions, which helps no one. With the current state of affairs, you could possibly classify all of the following statements as true:

1. OpenGL support on Vista will run through a slow D3D wrapper.
2. OpenGL on Vista will not support the compositing desktop.
3. OpenGL will have support for the compositing desktop on Vista.
4. Vista will support high-performance OpenGL ICDs.

Obviously, they all need qualifiers, and are not simultaneously true. This unfortunately makes it too easy to confuse developers. Please get the facts straight and if you feel it will impact your products, make whatever Microsoft contacts you have aware of your concern over the issue.

-Evan"


The reality of the situation, is more along the lines of.
• Faster OpenGL for non-OpenGL Hardware (or just UnSupported Hardware)
• Lack of Composite Desktop Features, which will only affect the Application you using. Given I doubt they'd use the Composite features anyways, don't see it being a big loss.
• Everything technically runs like it did in Windows XP only, well faster.

In overview while this looks like some majorly horribly tragedy that OpenGL support is being dropped for Windows Vista, reality hit is that no such thing is happening. Microsoft are just trying to sort out a system that works very closely to thier old system for OpenGL despite the fact that everything *must* go through DirectX in order to be rendered to screen.

See this is probably the biggest issue, and I don't see that really being any different that GDI previously accessing the SVGA output of a Video Card. If anything with PCI-E now becomming the Standard you should actually see a BOOST in the Fillrate speed rather than a drop. Because Direct Memory Access is slower than using the on-board Video Memory.

Hopefully this has cleared up any scares people have had about Microsoft and thier "crusade against OpenGL" you've been hearing the past few days.

David R
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 13:20 Edited at: 10th Aug 2005 13:21
[Re-read post, and realised what I said was redundant]


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 14:21
Aside from the people at ID, I'm not sure many people will miss OpenGL...

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Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 16:08
It's only the majority of retail game developers who use DirectX on Windows.

As far as games go on the whole though, far more still use OpenGL.
In general if Microsoft forced DirectX on Windows, this would force a seperate development platform. Last thing Microsoft need is to cause a rift between the OpenGL and Direct3D people.

NVIDIA in particular are currently serving over 60% of Microsoft's Market... who's cards are optimised for OpenGL. Simon Green has mentioned that he is currently in talks with Microsoft over what is being done to resolve any potencial problems.

Last thing Microsoft need before Apple MacOS 11 is released for the x86 is for NVIDIA to take thier G70/NV50 Cards to Apple. Remember that Sony are building NVIDIA's reputation up in a HUGE number of gamers minds as simply the best card possible. So effectively NVIDIA are going to control gamers and developers for the next year until the Playstation 3 is release atleast.

Market suicide if Microsoft were doing what everyone seems to believe they are. Vista is already poorly recieved, you combine this with thier recent crackdown and denial of service activation and validation for valid customers while the pirates have crack it and are getting away scott-free.

They're on shakey ground right now. I for one am very skeptical about upgrading to Vista right now. Hell I'm actually debating about going back to Windows 2000.

Without being able to update Windows XP, I might as well post my IP online and tell script hacking kiddies that my computer is open for business. Despite the fact I spent almost £200 on a Coporate Edition of Windows XP so that I didn't have to purchase more than one copy.

Right now I'm just ticked off with Microsoft's recently business tactics in 'fixing piracy'. Yeah, maybe they should focus on the two ****ing countries that make up over 3/4 of the entire worlds piracy rather than bitch slapping all of the users.

The UK and US has the smallest piracy ratio in the entire world. Probably because most of us are actually rich enough to actually afford the software. You know rather than forcing more people from Windows and actually causing the whole Linux issue perhaps they could think about lowering the price of thier OS so that oh I dunno EVERYONE can afford it.

Hell, our local pub did it with thier Guiness. Myself and a Friend said that £2.50 for a pint was ridiculous, I bet him £20 that if he lowered it to £2.20 he'd sell more.

At £2.20 he sold another half a keg each night, he lowered it again to £1.80 and started selling almost double than he originally was.
I won my £20 plus a few free pints.

Point is while higher prices bring in more profit each time, if you want to make sure more people purchase something you need to find a reasonable middleground.

£90 for a new Operating System is a ripp-off, especially for software that has been out for almost 4years. Prices are support to DROP.

Just gets on my nerves how supposidely the richest company in the world are so ****ing retarded when it comes to simple economics.

empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 16:40
Quote: "At £2.20 he sold another half a keg each night, he lowered it again to £1.80 and started selling almost double than he originally was."

That doesn't necessarily mean he has a higher profit.


Quote: "Just gets on my nerves how supposidely the richest company in the world are so ****ing retarded when it comes to simple economics."

It's the richest company in the world and knows less about "simple" economics than you do. Dunno, but that doesn't make much sense to me.


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Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 16:55
Quote: "It's the richest company in the world and knows less about "simple" economics than you do. Dunno, but that doesn't make much sense to me."


As company who's made it's money througb forcing dependancy on thier product through businesses rather than personal users. Now it's a case of compatibility and popularity.

The only reasn they charge so much is simple. They can, and a large number of people will still buy enough copies to make it worth while. This doesn't mean they're seeing even close to the profit that Valve has been seeing in the past year.

Valves most popular package online was thier Bronze Package. The cheapest package. They saw some truely ridiculous profits over the past year. Many developers are looking to take advantage of charging a smaller amount fo smaller updates to gain a larger overall profit.

Microsoft in the past year have seen some quite sharply dropping profits. This has nothing to do with me knowing more, this has everything to do with thier business model not being based around the market economics and more around peoples dependancy on thier software.

If they start to shake that dependancy need all they're going to achieve is the same fate that happened to Commodore. It doesn't matter who rich and powerful you are, if you have poor understanding of market economics your going to fall when you start messing with the formula. What's possible worse is Microsoft have to evolve thier Windows platform because stagnation will also eventually kill them.

Quote: "That doesn't necessarily mean he has a higher profit."

Given I got some free beers out of it, I would say it did.
Sides the end result was he was selling 2x the amount of Beer at only a slightly lower price.

Alright so Beer has a limited shelf-life and you need to sell it all unless you want to loose out, but the point is that.

10 units at £2.50 and 20 units at £1.80 is a large take. Your reducing your individual unit profit in order to gain a larger gross profit.

As I said, simple economics. The key is making sure that you don't push the boundry so far that your no longer making any profit.

Though no doubt you've suddenly decided to become an expert on this subject and are going to find several sources to show me up once again. I mean we all know Empty knows everything about everything
Often confuses me why such an obvious genius would wasting his time here.

Should be off at some uni making doctrate students cry or something, no?

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 17:17
Dont forget a lot could change between now and the supposed release date next year.

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empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 17:21
As for MS profits, you should read this here.
By the way, how come you suddenly have such a negative view on MS? Has a recent streamline process rendered your imaginary job at MS unnecessary?


Quote: "As I said, simple economics. The key is making sure that you don't push the boundry so far that your no longer making any profit."

That is mathmatically and economically wrong. Even if you lower the price so that you still have a certain net income per unit, a larger turn-out doesn't automatically mean higher profits.


Quote: " I mean we all know Empty knows everything about everything "

As it appears, the one who things he knows everything about everything is you.


Quote: "Often confuses me why such an obvious genius would wasting his time here. Should be off at some uni making doctrate students cry or something, no?"

You know it's far simpler. That's stuff we learned in school when I was younger.


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Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 18:56
Quote: "As for MS profits, you should read this here."


Try actually bothering to read the reports.

Quote: "By the way, how come you suddenly have such a negative view on MS? Has a recent streamline process rendered your imaginary job at MS unnecessary?"


I don't have a negative view. I just think it's retarded how they're instigating all these stupid things to stop piracy when all it's achieving is pissing off loyal users. The pirates have got around the activation, they've got around this Validation thing.

Each time I want to download a new sodding update I have to contact Microsoft and they activate a temporary validation for my .NET account. While the pirates are still getting away with stealing the operating system.

Just because I have an issue with one aspect of the company doesn't mean my entire world view on them has changed. For gods sake I bitch about what TGC are doing almost daily, that doesn't mean I find DarkBASIC Professional a bad product nor does it mean I wouldn't recommend it to someone else. It's just a personal issue I have with how things are being run.

What do you feel that everything has to be black'n'white clean cut, your for them or against them? What a sheltered little life you must've led.

Quote: "That is mathmatically and economically wrong. Even if you lower the price so that you still have a certain net income per unit, a larger turn-out doesn't automatically mean higher profits."


How is it wrong? If you learn this stuff in school years ago, then surely you would understand the whole supply and demand model.

It's quite simple.

The Barman is selling 1 unit at £2.50. Each Keg Contains say 25 units, and has a lifespan of 2 days. Let's put the Keg price at something unreasonably high (landlords tend to charge far more and actually water stuff down quite a bit) so lets say each Keg is £12 Each.

So lets say at £2.50 he sells 10 units per day. This means that each Keg will actually last the 2 days, and he would have to throw away 5units. There are 7 days in the week so that's 4 Kegs in all, plus 15 units lost per week. (I won't count the last Keg because I only want to count this per week to keep it simple)

So this would mean his goss income for the week would be £175.
After you take away the cost of the Beer, £103. Again for simplicity means we'll ignore the barstaff having to be paid (mainly because you can't do that on a single drink type profit)

As a result the net is £103.

Now lets say you reduce the price to £2.20, now because the price is reduced people feel they can afford to drink more (or so the theory goes). As such we'll assume that for each previous unit people believe that they can drink 1.5 units now.

They're not drinking 15 units per day. This now means 6 Kegs a week.
We're also seeing only the final keg not being totally drunk so the landlord is making profit on every single unit sold.

Again if we do the math, we now make a gross of £231 and a net of £147.

So while each unit makes a small loss, the overall profit ratio actually rises.
As I said, this is simple economic. Wether you choose to believe I know this stuff of not is a completely different matter. What I mentioend earlier is exactly why Microsoft are doing so well.

It has nothing to do with thier economic senses, and everything to do with the fact that people NEED thier software. It's not a case of want but NEED. When there is a Market need, you can jack up the price and people will still pay because they can't afford not to.

Ian T
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 19:33
I invented OpenGL shortly after designing the first Internet.

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BenDstraw
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 19:54
Im no expert in this so if I get this wrong dont yell at me Im using a little common sense.

I say that if MS at this point were to lower their price to I dont know half price. They would lose money cause the same people are going the buy the cheap product even if it was still expensive. So really your plan at this point might not work for them. It would certainly work before they became so important and needed. Thats just my spin on it.

Oraculaca
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:04 Edited at: 10th Aug 2005 20:05
Price reduction is sometimes necessary to get the edge over competitors but lets face it Microsoft dont really have a worry in this sense. In the pub environment there is stiff competition and therefore a need to attract as many punters through the door as they can. If I was a pub landlord I certainly wouldnt be listening to some drunken muppet with regards to my price list mind you.


empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:12 Edited at: 10th Aug 2005 20:13
Quote: "Try actually bothering to read the reports."

That's an interesting way to say that you couldn't be bothered to read them...

Quote: "Just because I have an issue with one aspect of the company"

Your issues are completely irrelevant. Posting them in a public forum would be relevant.

Quote: "How is it wrong?"

Because you said:
Quote: " The key is making sure that you don't push the boundry so far that your no longer making any profit."


Quote: "It's quite simple."

It isn't. It'd be simple if you knew the exact costs per pint (that includes more than the price your barman pays for it).


As for MS, let's resume your quotes:
1) Microsoft are doing so well.
2) It has nothing to do with thier economic senses
3) MS is so ****ing retarded when it comes to simple economics.
4) When there is a Market need, you can jack up the price and people will still pay because they can't afford not to.

Basically you say they have no economic senses because they keep the price high, but they can do it because the market allows it.
Where's the sense in that?


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Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:21
Ben, the idea wouldn't be to drop the price for everything.
Having Corporate Licenses would still be one of the best ideas for big business, which is still thier main income. What I mean are the prices for the public market.

This is the market that they're actually loosing quite a bit of business from recently. (hense the whole major advertising campaign that just started a few months back)

Interest in Vista itself is very low too. See the main issue is while sure big business are thier major profits, the public market is where the industry trends are set.

Microsoft dropped the .NET support due to the lack of public take up, despite quite a phenominal industry take up.
On the whole this I would think should be thier major consern. Piracy shouldn't be targetting at the businesses, while sure there are also businesses using illegal software; far far more public sector people are pirating the software.

These are the main culprits that Microsoft need to stop, but how they're going about it is to make things far more difficult for the legitimate users instead of the pirates.

If they dropped thier price then more people would be 'fair enough, it's not that expensive I'll pay for it.'

The funny thing about pirated software. When the demand goes away people can't be arsed to do it. You want to crack and break something everyone will use, and because it's "unbreakable".

It's like that damn Frog, now that people have started to get bored of him and it's no all across every forum, webchain, etc. he is now disappearing from everyones view. (about sodding time)

Just how things work.

Quote: "If I was a pub landlord I certainly wouldnt be listening to some drunken muppet with regards to my price list mind you."


Muppets, there was two of us. Sides what do you think I did just came in and suggested it. Daniel is my mate from waaay back when. Anyway I've not met a landlord who can resist a friendly wager yet.
(which might be why you don't see many scottish landlords )

David R
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:23 Edited at: 10th Aug 2005 20:25



I can just see it coming


Quote: "It's like that damn Frog, now that people have started to get bored of him and it's no all across every forum, webchain, etc. he is now disappearing from everyones view. (about sodding time)"

Yeah, but there is a large difference between 'Stupid ringtone that sounds like a dying frog' and 'Getting an expensive product for nothing


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BenDstraw
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:27
O i see raven thanks for clearing that up

Raven
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 20:39
Quote: "Your issues are completely irrelevant. Posting them in a public forum would be relevant."


Any why would that be candyman? I'm entitled to my opinion no matter who I'm working for. You think somehow I'd get in trouble for not praising every-single move by the parent company of who I work for?

Yeah, maybe you might want to actually want to read the blogs of people actually working for the parent company itself. Not many people agree with how the top-dogs run things. And you know what, they don't particularly care what we think.

This isn't some 'be happy, or else' company. I'm happy working for Microsoft, they pay quite well, they have excellent health, dental, employee care packages. On the whole they produce some awesome software.

Strategy wise, I think the top-dogs are living in the past. And I'm not the only person to say it. This forum is pretty much an unofficial off the record place, but some employees have written in thier Microsoft Blogs how they think the same thing.

We're not going to be fired for our opinions. Hell most employees don't actually use purely Microsoft software.

You know what the most used Browser in Redmond is? FireFox.
That's why the new Explorer 7 looks so bloody similar, they love it. I hate it.

People have a very weird perception of what Microsoft are really like.

Quote: "It isn't. It'd be simple if you knew the exact costs per pint (that includes more than the price your barman pays for it)."


I simplified it so you could follow it. I wasn't going to add the Tax, License Cost, Staff Cost, etc. Because then I'd have to cover far far more topics than the exact one at hand.

The answer was consise and to the point. Rather than being able to say I'm wrong all you've done is said that I'm not taking into consideration all of the factors. Typical really.

If your just here to cause trouble **** off and bother someone else or admit you were wrong.

Quote: "Basically you say they have no economic senses because they keep the price high, but they can do it because the market allows it.
Where's the sense in that?"


Because they're treating the ENTIRE market they server with the same market model.

Everyone pays the same price, for the same software.
No matter the end intentions for it.

Now look at Avid. They treat thier Business and Public markets differently, because they are different. Lowering thier public market prices in order to be reasonable enough for everyone to afford thier software for thier personal commercial needs.

Making software versions free for useage with purchased games so that they have a larger market penatration.

Providing much more complex professional level software and support for a licensable price for sites rather than single units.

Microsoft aren't dividing thier sectors, they treat them the same.
While the market will allow them to charge high because most people no don't purchase thier own operating system. Microsoft haven't realised that they're selling far less units to the actual public sector and changed thier prices accordingly.

Instead they see the major rise in piracy as just people too lazy to pay.

$90 in India, is the better part of 2months wages. For me and you it's less than a week work. Yet Microsoft again treat that market identically to the European and United States Markets.

It makes perfect sense to say that they have no concept of Economics. All they understand is thier profits are still being made at the current price of software. They're relying on the fact that they are a market dominance, not on the economics of the situation they're in.

David R
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 21:00
Quote: "People have a very weird perception of what Microsoft are really like. "


That's because they hardly allow any photos or cameras to even enter the complex


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empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 21:24
Quote: "Any why would that be candyman? I'm entitled [...]"

*yawn*. Yeah. As I said that would be relevant IF you worked for MS.


Quote: "I simplified it so you could follow it. I wasn't going to add the Tax, License Cost, Staff Cost, etc. Because then I'd have to cover far far more topics than the exact one at hand."

By the logic you posted above ("The key is making sure that you don't push the boundry so far that your no longer making any profit"), you'd have the most profit if you sold the pint for exactly one penny more than it totally costs. Again, lowering the price does not automatically increase the profits even if you sell more units. There are a lot of factors you need to consider. And so back to MS. Why should they lower the price for their OS?
Would they sell more copies? Perhaps, but more than they need to increase their net profits? No.
You know, they don't fix a price by casting a dice and writing down the numbers (that's how they write some of their software).



Quote: "You know what the most used Browser in Redmond is? FireFox. "

And who told you that?

Quote: "If your just here to cause trouble **** off and bother someone else or admit you were wrong."

Ah, the day you follow your own advice, is that the same day hell freezes over?


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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Aug 2005 21:44
Click. No commentary is needed on what went wrong here.

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