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Geek Culture / My First Linux

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Ace Of Spades
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Joined: 6th Mar 2005
Location: Across the ocean
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 03:52
I have never used linux before, but I was getting to the point where I just couldn't stand windows anymore, so I thought I would give it a try. A quick search around the internet, a 4-week wait, and I had 10 Ubuntu Linux installation cd sets. Was busing packing and moving, but once I made it up to school, in went the CD.

I was amazed at how incredibley(sp?) easy it was. I had to do virtually no work. Just select the drive to install it on and away it went. Turns out it takes well over an hour to finish itself up, which is one of the few downsides. I create my user account and login to my new Linux OS.

It was absolutely amazing at how many features, tools, and programs come standard with it, virtually everything I need is there in one form or another(other than darkbasic of course). Along with all the stuff it has, it is still MUCH less crowded than the windows os, everything is conveniently organized and ready to use. I have heard all the hype about Linux and thought it was just exaggerations, but after finally trying it myself, I have discovered it is a great operating system, especially for the price($0.00).

So if anyone is wanting to try out Linux, I would strongly recommend Ubuntu. Just do a google search for it and you will find an order form, they even pay for the shipping! After my evaluation I have decided to stick with Linux as my main OS.

"Dark Basic rocks! Although the things you can do are not as dynamic as C++, just think how long it would take to do the same thing! I can get FPS of over 60!"
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Location: At home
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 09:25
Quote: "Along with all the stuff it has, it is still MUCH less crowded than the windows os"

You are kidding, right ?

I found Linux to be inherently unstable - aside from not detecting various bits of hardware, a few days after it being installed, it just wouldn't boot.

Then you had crashes that took out the whole computer...

I can see Linux being useful, but it wont be ready for general use for a good couple of years yet.

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
Torrey
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Location: New Jersey
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 09:29
Bouncy Brick,

Was this more then 3-4 years ago? My first times with Linux in the 90s wasn't too good, but the newer releases are great! I occasionally use Mandrake, Red Hat, and Xandros. Although if you're coming straight from Windows to Linux try out Xandros (Desktop Deluxe) version. The CodeWeavers integration is excellent. Meaning you can run various Windows apps on Linux with ease. Works better then wine.
Rpg Cyco
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Location: Australia
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 10:45 Edited at: 25th Aug 2005 10:46
I tend to cast a doubtful look on posts that say Linux is unstable and crashes badly, due to it never happening to me. Not saying it never happened though.

I've been using Linux for over a year, not that long, but it's been long enough to experience a few different distributions. Starting with Fedora Core 2, Mandrake, to Ubuntu Warty, Fedora Core 3 and now Ubuntu Hoary.

Ubuntu was (is) the best I have used so far. However, I still find myself in Windows, like I am now, to use programs that don't have an up-to-scratch Linux alternative. FTP client is a good example, gFTP does not cut it.

- Rpg Cyco

indi
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Posted: 25th Aug 2005 10:52
im using a unix variant now with os x.
stable as any other with the general bashing i give it daily.
as a server its brilliant.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 25th Aug 2005 10:54 Edited at: 25th Aug 2005 11:01
The last time I tried Linux was a year ago - if I remember correctly I had Linux installed when I did the convention.

Quote: "I tend to cast a doubtful look on posts that say Linux is unstable and crashes badly, due to it never happening to me. Not saying it never happened though."

Likewise for those who say Linux is stable and the best thing since sliced bread. Its pretty good on an Apple, but on the PC its got a long way to go.

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 25th Aug 2005 11:49 Edited at: 25th Aug 2005 11:50
Another problem with Linux is, an installation can get very messy. If a distribution's software repos stop being updated, then you have to start mixing packages andor compiling programs from source etc. Messy.

Quote: "Likewise for those who say Linux is stable and the best thing since sliced bread. Its pretty good on an Apple, but on the PC its got a long way to go."


People who claim it is "the best thing since sliced bread" are morons. Please continue to disregard them, like I'm sure you already do.

- Rpg Cyco

Torrey
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Location: New Jersey
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 12:00
Over complicating things a bit? Linux isn't as bad as you think. The support for hardware has gone way up. The installation methods have become easier with the newer wizards. The only problem some people may have is with the advanced partition managers, but even now the installation disks come with user friendly versions. Updates for packages are managed the same way Microsoft does theirs.

Pay for my plane ticket, and I'd be more then happy to show you how simple all of this really is!
David R
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Posted: 25th Aug 2005 12:30
Quote: "I found Linux to be inherently unstable - aside from not detecting various bits of hardware, a few days after it being installed, it just wouldn't boot."


"A bad workman always blames his tools"


OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 25th Aug 2005 12:34
In this case, I blame Linux as it was the only OS on the hard drive. I think it was the shut-down sequence that caused the problem (whatever it was).

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 25th Aug 2005 13:50
Quote: "I've been using Linux for over a year, not that long, but it's been long enough to experience a few different distributions."


I've been using Unix in some form or another for over a decade, with quite a bit of experience with a large number of builds.
Despite what Linux users wish to believe, it is still designed as a cut-down portable variation of Unix. Hense why I've always called it a Kiddie OS, because it is. It's more for learning purposes, or recoding it for specific work applications without the huge over-head you find in Unix.

The fact that the Linux community seems to ignore this fact seems quite amusing to me. Linus cuts it down to the bare essentials, the bare-bones can still fit on a Floppy Disk; and what do people and companies do? distribute it on 3-5 CD Variations bulking it up with hundreds of things that I swear most people don't have a clue they're even there let alone use them.

As far as the stability goes, it's all down to Hardware and Software really. Although yes there is a common library for accessing the Kernel; as far as other libraries go for building applications well those can vary wildly. So for example say someone released a Messenger build for Fedora around UI 1.0 and NET 1.0, then if he released the RPM then... it would compile as a very stable thing on any up to date OS (provided those are what your Linux build had).

Now issues start when you run the program and it compiles on a system with UI 1.0.1, or NET 2.0. While you will get a warning your libraries are out of date, most builds never warn you if your libraries are different than those expected (ie newer). So it will compile but the minor changes can cause some very huge bugs.

The reason it's praised through-out universities as 'The One OS to rule them ALL' is because Uni-Students have 10Mb if not 1Gb connections to play with. Downloading new libraries, just to compile a new application can be just as quick as if it was on thier local Hard Disk; in-fact most Uni setups will access files directly from online CVS rather than even making a local copy.

So thier libraries are always the exact versions required. No worries about downloading extremely large updates just to run a fairly small application. Further-more they never have to worry about Hard Disk space as very few machines use local drives. Often your space is stored on a Server somewhere with several hundred terabytes of storage space.

When you combine this with the fact that if you ever get stuck because everyone around you uses it, they can always help you learn how to use it.

Linux still isn't close to MacOSX or Windows, no matter the build.. even the super-friendly SuSE I use can still be quite confusing to what is where and why, or annoying having to fall-back to SHell just to do something that in MacOSX and Windows would be attached to the context-menu. So getting used to them as a home-user is a pain in the arse without help.

This is something else the Linux community REALLY needs to work on. As far as most Linux experts are conserned, you find an FAQ online.. if you don't understand it. Tough.

This attitude pissed me off when trying to find out why exactly Windows isn't seeing the Microsoft Network & Internet Sharing I'd setup in SuSE. I've still not been able to figure out why, despite DamnSmallLinux automatically setting it up for me. I had tried asking several SuSE rooms, and read up many documents on how to set it up. Nothing seems to work.

The overall lack of support is enough to be infuriating. There is also the fact that while MacOSX and Windows are very vocal about hardware issues. (Windows will BSOD your arse every few minutes if there are hardware problems, not that anyone ever checks them :p)
Linux and I've not used a single build yet that doesn't do this... will just keep running.

Now some people might see this as Linux being better due to it being able to run no matter what's wrong. Unfortunately it's this exact 'keep running no matter what', that has recently destroyed several hundred pounds worth of hardware. While sure only one part of the system was faulty to begin with, because of Linux accessing everything.. issues actually spread without me realising.

So from the RAM's corruption, it spread to the BIOS causing detection errors; this in-turn spread to the IDE and knocked out 1 hard disk and set another one to use only PIO mode (which is it's failsafe to prevent damage, IBM explained how to reset it). It also took out a CD-Rom and Diskette Drive just for good measure.

The result was very expensive to replace rather than just the RAM.
Alright so maybe stuff like that isn't common-place for everyday use, however something as simple as installing hardware is.

Again while sure some builds have one-click systems; not all of them do. This is something that is easily forgotten. Installing the NVIDIA Drivers on SuSE for example is difficult without understanding how XFree86 works, or how to boot in Run-Mode 6 (or what Run-Mode 6 even is). The NVIDIA instructions doesn't explain this, so anyone without knowlage will never get the drivers installed no matter how much they use the .run file.

Linux is good for Students and Businesses. I very much doubt that a real home alternative variation will be created.

Killswitch
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Location: School damnit!! Let me go!! PLEASE!!!
Posted: 26th Aug 2005 02:33
I don't like Linux as it is at the moment. I've tried lots of distros and none of them work for me. I truely believe that the pogram with Linux is that its too fragmented - eventually the distros will become so different that they'll never work propay together. The fact that its open source means jack.

If a team, company or even just one person started writing, from scratch, a new operating system then it'd have a lot better hanve of success. They could build in anything they wanted. Then we could have a truely unqiue and different OS - with a completey different shell instead of the KDE 'ooh I'm sorta like Explorer - just more clunkey' crap I'm presented with. Linux will never replace Windows and neither will OS X so long as Apple insist on it being tied to their harware. If they let it loose it'd more than a fighting chance.

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 03:12
I prefer Ubuntu Linux to Windows XP, but I never use it because most of the things I use (VS.NET, Maya, etc.) are not available in Linux. The best thing, above all, about Linux, is the Shell. I spend most of my time on the shell, because it's faster to use than a GUI anyday. Reminds me of when I used to fly around the MS-DOS command prompt back in the day

The best thing about Ubuntu Linux is that everything just works. You want an MP3 player? Click on it from the package finder, install, and boom! The system does everything for you. Don't want it anymore? Click uninstall, and boom! Great technology, and it's very reasonable for the home user, as opposed to what Raven might think.


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
indi
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 05:00
Linux will not penetrate deeper into the home user unless it changes some things.

the common windows home user does not like to use the command line for standard and common practises he has learnt using the windows platform.

installing software needs to be noobed in many linux distros for the uptake of newer users.

if there was a linux version that came with a windows looking manager and heavily modified the install procedure akin to windows installation procedures, then the common user could adapt the office and basic requirements to linux.
mac os x uses .dmg packages so i cant see why other distros cant install in a similar way.

however the plethora of games and software for pcs and the compatability is another drawback to using linux as a family pc OS. DirectX is still not 100% emulated if im not mistaken and the year is 2005!.

if you own a small business and want to install a cheap pc with a free Office pacakge then linux is a great alternative.

If your at university and you want to get access to a free compiler at home for many languages then linux is grouss.

if you want to setup a server for your business, create a home automation node,bla bla bla

linux does serve a purpose and its been proven by other experts to be a great tool.

perhaps someone got it really right in the 50's with multics/Unix because we are still using the principles 55 years after its first inception, and in computer years thats a millenium amount of time.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
UnderLord
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 05:33
Quote: "I prefer Ubuntu Linux to Windows XP, but I never use it because most of the things I use (VS.NET, Maya, etc.) are not available in Linux. The best thing, above all, about Linux, is the Shell. I spend most of my time on the shell, because it's faster to use than a GUI anyday. Reminds me of when I used to fly around the MS-DOS command prompt back in the day"


Hmmm =)


Well anyhow im thinking of using linux on my old comp partition the hard drive slip in the CD and boom have linux i just wanna know what a good one would be for a linux beginner like me? My old comp needs to be used or scrapped for parts i dunno which yet. Buts its a fairly old P4 with 1.6ghz 256mb's of ram and s 20gb hd all im gonna use it for really is just to search the net and probably use it as a firewall for my xp machine not much.

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
indi
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 06:11
you can read about many distros here

http://distrowatch.com/



however if your new to linux i suggest you get one that boots directly from the CD/DVD or mounts inside your Windows XP partition so you can remove it easier then creating partitions which if you havent backed up your windows data can bring everything to a screaming heap and your left with a flashing cursor for your troubles.


Knoppix & Ubuntu etc boot from the CD/DVD if im not mistaken from dabbling in them a while back.


these distros work in your windows partitions and can be removed by pulling the master folder to the trash

Xandros :
http://www.xandros.com/about/downloads.html
Dragonlinux
http://dragonlinux.sourceforge.net/


goto your largest newsagent or magazine shop and get a mag/cd/dvd of the latest distro that boots to cd.


try a few distros, its like candy! then when you feel comfortable with more knowledge create a partition for a distro you really like and a grub or lilo boot order and dual boot your machine over the two drives you have.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 06:18
I love linux. I hardly use Windows anymore, meaning I hardly use DBP :S


Who are the brain police?
Torrey
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 06:46
Partitions for newbies is definetly a challenge. When I first installed mandrake 7.2 (I think it was at the time it came out) it ate my C: drive and left it unreadable. Two years of programming work, and personal stuff was now in binary heaven.

If anyone wants to install linux, the best thing I could suggest is that you try to use partition magic. What indi says above about losing your xp partition data doesn't really happen anymore unless you do something really drastic (like playing with configs you don't understand).
UnderLord
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 06:56
LOL i'll try the ones indi suggest im not a total noob to partitions after all i build computers ect for fun. I have alot of experience with home networking KVM switchs networking general ect. But i think i'll just buy another HD and use it as a linux HD and store it on my new comp =) that way i can have all the fun and then some.

BTW anyone know where i can get a 20gb hard drive? office depot no longer carrys em (the ones near me) and nither does circuit city compusa or bestbuy its like a big conspiracy! But why would i want 20gigs you ask?

For my linux OS! that way i don't put it on my other HD with XP on it and that way if i do screw it up no big loss.

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
JoelJ
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 07:24
I've used linux and I personally think it's over hyped...right now i think the biggest plus for Linux is the lack of spyware/viruses, but even then, there are some and you can still spread windows viruses (i believe)

i actually kinda liked linux...but i never got the feel for it, but i used DX a LOT (Games, DBP, some C# graphics SDK thingies but those are moving on to ogl and i'm taking a C++ class) but i dont like the lack of user-friendliness, i am the kind of person who doesnt want to type all that crap just to install something...i want to getup and GO.

"people who wear clothing with tech themes for the purpose of gaining a social label are no different than teenagers who wear large sweatpants to look edgy"
-Wikipedia "Nerd"
Torrey
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 07:41
Underlord, out of those two please try Xandros if you can. The Xandros 3 Deluxe rocks.

Just for the record CrossOver Wine doesn't run the DBP IDE. I got the bright idea to try it out, because some of the simiplier programs like IDE's usually run. Anyone tried it for the regular distro of wine?
PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 10:12
Ah Linux.....
Last time i installed linux (RedHat9)) i blew away the windows boot sector so i couldn't reinstall windows. Then the Linux distro messed up.... oh it was messy.
However this is not fault of Linux but me.

Raven
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 11:36
Yes, very good points Indi.
As is noted, MacOSX is using a Unix-Based System; just like Linux is a cut-back Unix.

So there is no reason at all for Linux to still be user-unfriendly. MacOSX does a very good job, in many cases is actually easier to use than Windows.

IanG
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 12:14
All you have to do then is pop in your windows disk and enter in to the recovery console and type something like format /mbr iirc

But there is a better solution, get vmware workstation then you can run linux in windows and windows in linux, and also very good if you are constantly testing stuff

btw i use debian, nice and easy, if you want to install anything you can do it from source or from the .deb packages, I've tried suse which is nice but i hate the fact it is commercial, linux should be free and i've also tried fedora core, which is good but you can't beat my debian installation here


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb,xp pro sp2
Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 13:40
Quote: "I've tried suse which is nice but i hate the fact it is commercial, linux should be free"


I don't know if you've heard or not, but there is a new SuSE distro called Open SuSE - http://www.opensuse.org/.

Apparetly, it's pretty good, though still in BETA.

- Rpg Cyco

Raven
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 14:45
I have SuSE 9.3 Professional, didn't pay a penny for it and got it right from SuSE's own FTP.

Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 15:20
I had to buy SuSE 9 Pro 2 years ago (or was it last year? I forget...), because at that time I had a Dial-up connection and downloading a 600+ meg iso for a week was not something I wanted to do. I also wasn't familiar with BitTorrent then.

I'm more for Debian-based distros now, apt-get makes my life so easy, though I think Gentoo and Slackware have something similar?


Who are the brain police?
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 18:09
If you buy any Linux distro off the shelves, you will pay $$$ for it. However, AFAIK all Linux distros are free from the company's FTP servers. Suse is a bit of a waste of time anyways, with like 7-9 CDs worth of stuff. Ubuntu is just 1


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
RegenProZ
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 21:46
I found the Linux program was also amazing, only, I also found it pointless to use, because when I installed it, it would not read my xp cd's (Such as wirless pc card to get connected to the router), which was a bit of a bummer...

Overall, would recommend to anyone who does not connect through a router and has a linux version of connecting software.

---------
How does a project get to be a year behind schedule? One day at a time
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 23:06
Kubuntu is what i liked...i used Mandrake...but its to far from the standard Linux setup i kinda hated it...

Linux is great...its fun to play with...but there are things its good for just like windows...i would probably dual boot if i still had the time for it..

Who am i...i don't know anymore...its been a long time since ive walked here...
JoelJ
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 23:28
Quote: " (Such as wirless pc card to get connected to the router)"

that's because Linux doesnt use windows drivers, unless you are an advanced linux user and want to use the ndiswrapper or whatever it's called, that's basically a pain, and i'm most definantly not a linux dude by any stretch of the imagination

Quote: "i used Mandrake"

i really liked mandrake a lot, that was the first i used, then i moved on the Fedora Core 3, and i didnt like it as much...dono why

"people who wear clothing with tech themes for the purpose of gaining a social label are no different than teenagers who wear large sweatpants to look edgy"
-Wikipedia "Nerd"
RegenProZ
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 23:31
Does anyone know a a linux that gives you the feel of linux, but is still using windows?

---------
How does a project get to be a year behind schedule? One day at a time
JoelJ
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Posted: 26th Aug 2005 23:43 Edited at: 26th Aug 2005 23:46
you would "anyone know of a linux DISTRO (or distrobution)"
and you mean running linux in windows? yes, there are several, dont know why you would want to, nor do i know the names... but you can also get boot cds, that you put in your drive and reboot your computer and it starts linux right up.

or do you mean a linux distro that has the feel of windows using linux?
there are 2 that i know of, cant remember the names...maybe it's Xandros? and something else...something five-o

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16832106502
that's the Xandros Delux, i'm sure theres a free or really cheap version out there somewhere...

"people who wear clothing with tech themes for the purpose of gaining a social label are no different than teenagers who wear large sweatpants to look edgy"
-Wikipedia "Nerd"
indi
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Posted: 27th Aug 2005 03:15
Seriously I dont know you from a bar of soap so I gave you the worst possible combination.

Drives that fall apart due to config errors and what not happen faster with people new to linux, then you would imagine.

Im telling you in advance so you know, I dont know your skillset.

I just jumped in with linux distros on mac and pc and made sure i backed up and had the time to reinstall if anything went wrong.

if you cant try a few without someone holding your had, then stay in windows land..

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
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Posted: 27th Aug 2005 17:23
Get a virtual machine and install it in that, then you can have as much fun as you want trying to break Linux while happily surfing the web and listening to music in Windows.

Virtual PC
VMWare
Bochs

etc

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 28th Aug 2005 04:22
Well if you don't want to worry to much, just get the free ubuntu cd's like I said. Comes with a live cd(use it first) and an install cd(use only if you like the live cd). Very quick, efficiant, and safe. Just save anything you want to keep, then install it and you are all set. The only downfalls I can see right now are the DirectX and other Microsoft(only use on meh windowz!) products. But all the general text-editing, programming(not darkbasic), graphic design tools, media players, etc... come standard with ubuntu, uses all opensource products for the most part. I was like OMFG, already has open office and firefox, SWEETZ!!! However for you hardcore directx fans, just ignore this shiz and stick with windows(vista of course).

"Dark Basic rocks! Although the things you can do are not as dynamic as C++, just think how long it would take to do the same thing! I can get FPS of over 60!"
ionstream
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Posted: 28th Aug 2005 05:19
I have gentoo, and it works perfectly with my crappy Capture card,even better than windows does, because windows crashes when I try to record with DVD quality (or anything other than 320x240). Its funkadelic.


And KDE on linux looks almost exactly the same as explorer for windows, so don't say that "KDE is less cluttered." Its not.

Sig changed for lagging up browsers.
JoelJ
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Location: UTAH
Posted: 28th Aug 2005 05:46 Edited at: 28th Aug 2005 05:46
I like the look of Xandros

edit
image too big, here's just the link
http://www.xandros.com/images/screenshots/v3/desktop_original.png

"people who wear clothing with tech themes for the purpose of gaining a social label are no different than teenagers who wear large sweatpants to look edgy"
-Wikipedia "Nerd"
UnderLord
21
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Joined: 2nd Aug 2003
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Posted: 28th Aug 2005 05:50
thats a good idea get a virtual drive LOL =P shoulda thought of that before....im just tryin to think of stuff for my old computer to be used for. but i guess i'll just scrap it.

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
JoelJ
21
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Joined: 8th Sep 2003
Location: UTAH
Posted: 28th Aug 2005 07:30
I just got the Xandros Open Circulation version installed on my 600mhz computer (the one i have nothing to do with, so i'm just using it as a local FTP/Printer server ), and honestly, I'm quite loving it, it feels just like windows! I've tried 3 or 4 linux distros (Fedora, Madrake, Ubuntu, Xandros) and this one is the most friendly one

for now i'm going to keep it on this one computer, but since i'm playing less games and doing less DBP, and want to get into OGL anyway, i might even put windows on the scrap computer and linux on this computer

"people who wear clothing with tech themes for the purpose of gaining a social label are no different than teenagers who wear large sweatpants to look edgy"
-Wikipedia "Nerd"
RegenProZ
19
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Joined: 20th Aug 2005
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Posted: 28th Aug 2005 14:18
I'm taking it, if it were possible for DarkBasicPro to be on linux, you would all be switching right away
Although I still need a linux cd to get my router up

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Never You Mind

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