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Geek Culture / How do people make hardware?

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ionstream
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Posted: 1st Sep 2005 20:15 Edited at: 1st Sep 2005 20:16
Most of my computer dealings for the past few years have been Software only, and as I progressed, I dealt with lower and lower level languages (Visual Basic -> C, C++ -> ASM). Now I want to get to an even lower level, and start making hardware. I don't want to develop microchips (too hard), but I want to utilize common microchips like ARM, or MIPS, and various memory devices like SD cards. Here are my questions:

1: Is this possible to do without working in a large company that has deals with electronic makers?

2: How would I obtain things like the PCB, or the chipset and the RAM? Are there online resellers that sell these kinds of things?

3: How would I interface these things together, and most importantly, how would I program the device?

EDIT: And is there any website that has the information that I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance!

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TKF15H
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Posted: 1st Sep 2005 20:29 Edited at: 1st Sep 2005 20:32
Creating your own hardware is possible, but the trouble you have to go through and the amount of stuff you have to study before you do so isn't worth it. Espetially if you want to use other people's processors, ram, etc.
If you are willing to spend the resources (money for parts, neurons, and skin due to misuse of a soldering iron) then you could try building your own simple processor. Or better yet, use a Z-80, if you can find one. RAM is tough to build, and using pre-made is probably impossible (haven't seen documentation for it). You can forget about making it work with a monitor, I've seen some home-made computer projects that were VERY complex and they always worked with a LED display.
If you don't know how to interface everything together, you have a whole lot to learn before you give this a try.

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ionstream
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Posted: 1st Sep 2005 20:48
I guess I'll start googling like crazy then .

And I have this cool ColdHeat solering iron that cools down really fast, so I probably won't get burned .

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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Sep 2005 20:52
If I were you I'd buy a book on building your own robot, and go from there. There were a few books I found years ago on building cheap insectoids, and they broke down the parts by price. The parts were easily obtainable from places like Radio Shack.

You will be surprised at how much you learn from this experience. You can even step it up and build a robot that you can program and send commands from your computer's serial/parallel ports

RegenProZ
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Posted: 1st Sep 2005 21:00
http://www.howstuffworks.com

"Why do people depend on each other? In the end you're on your own." - Squall
UnderLord
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 05:50
Quote: "You will be surprised at how much you learn from this experience. You can even step it up and build a robot that you can program and send commands from your computer's serial/parallel ports
"


How about sending it remote commands VIA wifi and you'd have to do is set it up to work with a wifi card (if it can be done) program a simple interface that takes commands (like a dos prompt) and wala =) i hope....but ithink radio signals can do the same thing anyways with less effort.

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
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ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 06:18
I dont have a wifi card, only a wireless router thats connected with a LAN cable.

I dont think I'll build a robot, but I will read some online manuals.

The first thing I want to do is get a "breadboard" and program some LEDs. I'm sure theres something I can read on that subject.

And I found a place called All Electronics that sells alot of Electronics parts for very low prices. Breadboard for 5 dollars there, I've seen the same one for 15 dollars. I just hope shipping isn't too much.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 07:27
what i would like to know is how you could control a couple hundred leds from a usb port
then you could make some freaking nice light shows


Eat some of dat cheese
Torrey
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 07:58
If you can do all these interfacing on a Windows98 pc it would be for the best. 2k and XP block the hardware ports you need to access that would help you debug what signals the device you created tries to send over. One thing that would be very helpful to you is:

This Book

This book will give you information about every piece of hardware you can think of and it's makeup. Including what each pin does on the connectors.
TKF15H
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 16:28
Quote: " what i would like to know is how you could control a couple hundred leds from a usb port"

USB is harder to work with, both hardware and software-wise. Parallel port is much easier.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 17:51
ok,

what i would like to know is how you could control a couple hundred leds from some sort of port on the computer

Quote: "2k and XP block the hardware ports you need "

linux would work


Eat some of dat cheese
ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 21:06
I'll be accessing ports with Linux, so thats not a problem.

I also found this site, which is funny and educational :

http://www.ladyada.net/make/minty/index.html

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Raven
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 21:19
Q: Is this possible to do without working in a large company that has deals with electronic makers?

A: Yes, but you'll find it is quite expensive to get parts without buying in bulk. Especially specialist orders!

Q: How would I obtain things like the PCB, or the chipset and the RAM? Are there online resellers that sell these kinds of things?

A: There's a number of different ways. The easiest is to start off small and buy parts from Radio Shack, Maplin, Hills Components, etc. There is a huge number of electronics hardware stores out there, because believe it or not there is a huge market. Mainly because parts used in computers aren't exclusive, you'll find they're used in all sorts of other things that you get repaired like DVD Players, Televisions, Washing Machines, etc.

Q: How would I interface these things together, and most importantly, how would I program the device?

A: Generally speaking interface development is down to your understanding on electronics. As Jeku noted there are books on the matter. Personally I would suggest getting some 1980 books about the 808x or 680x Processors as these are quite easy to understand due to thier small size and design. It's also a subject you'll find the most on. It also gives you better in-sight to modern CPUs as almost everything internal to CPUs now you would have to manually create a PCB in order to link it externally. Like Clock/Timer, Data Interface, Cache, Maths Co-Processor, etc.

As far as programming them goes, this is still done via a ROM and Chipset. The Chipset is often a specialised Chip that you access given addresses to get different responses; but it's easily created using a Programmable I/O Chip. ROM or BIOS would be your physically programmed chip that tells all the hardware how to communicate with the chipset and such.

Again a book would probably explain this far better than I can.
I would STRONGLY suggest starting off small. Trying to make something as simple as a BBC/Spectrum will be challenge. Luckily you have all the knowledge you could possibly want available though.

ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2005 23:03
Ah, I was waiting for Raven to say something .

I think I might have a few books that my Cousin gave to me on some processor, man I hope I didnt throw it out .

Hopefully I won't have to buy too many books, like I did with C++ (most of my knowledge came from various online tutorials and source).

Thanks for all of your help!

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Coding Fodder
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 01:51
www.pad2pad.com

they have a pci board template in their FREE cad software. Check em out

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Raven
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 15:39
I started off on something called CrocodileClips, or AligatorClips, something like that I know it was a play on the Croc Clip circuit breaker.

it was good for learning the basic logic of circuits though.

Killswitch
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 16:08
Its CrocodileClips, but we (my school) just call it CrocClips. PCB Wizard is also useful (changes designes in CrocClips to actual PCBs - however the latest versions of both programs are incompatible with eachother).

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
Terabyte
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 18:48
Maplin
Great place for all your electronics belonging to you.

Move chip Move chip etc..

Dark Days Software
Me!
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 23:11 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2005 23:22
http://home.micros.users.btopenworld.com/zx80/zx80.html


A. you wont find it expensive unless you plan to go into production, RELATIVLY speaking the components will be more expensive, but you will be buying older tech thats cheap and plentiful anyway, you will not be using custom chips or surface mount tech, so no big deal..it never stopped me.

B. in the UK try Maplins or Radio Spares (websites available),

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Sub_Category.aspx?Menu=3&doy=3m9
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/home.do?cacheID=ukie

elsewhere try for something like Radio Shack, ram and parts will be cheap enough for hobbyist stuff, just don`t expect to make a MP3 player as small as the one you see in the market unless you plan on using surface mount technology, which will involve a huge outlay in equipment or contracts to have the stuff built.

C. there are a lot of online references for electronics enthusiasts, and some modern electrical CAD software uses databases of standard components and can show you what the device you have drawn up will actualy do when you power it up, interfaces for computer circuits tend to be all TTL (5v) and standard except where you need to convert, eg 16bit to 8 bit or rs232 to usb or binary to decimal digital led display etc, all pretty simple to someone if they "grok" the idea behind modular design and programming etc

D. programming for the cpu you use can be done in emulation on the pc you are sat at now, most makers provide development kits for this purpose freely since it allows the prospective buyer to try before they buy, once you have the final program sorted and working as you want you can send the result to a prom burner or some firm that will burn em for you for testing in the actual device.

E. try the designs in the first link I gave (he mentions several other computers at the bottom), the zx80 was used for a whole host of things in the past, that big rear port that allows open access to the main bus etc allows for immense possibilities (joels couple of hundred leds would be cinch for some simple bus decodeing and a driver array all driven by twenty or so lines of sinclair basic), I have seen some quite elaborate robots run by a zx80, when I was younger I made a controler for a large shop window display train set that allowed for automated schedules etc, easy as pie (well...it worked third try )

F. not that I have played with this sort of stuff for the last 10 or so years, but you might want to check out PIC controlers, they where the up and coming thing back then (although they might be old hat by now... )



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