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Geek Culture / Fan games illegal?

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Zergei
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 06:20
Just to be sure, and not end up on some kind of problem, doing a game using a company's (example... nintendo, sega, playstation, microsoft, whatever....) media (pics, musics, sounds, and so on...) is not illegal unless i sell the game, right? Even if i end up doing it online and so on...?
indi
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 06:25
sometimes even usage of media in this regard is frowned upon by the authors as the media in the first place is not allowed to be distributed from the original game.

giving it away for free does not dismiss you from copyright in certain situations.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
Kohaku
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 06:26
I think it's best to contact that company first, stating what it is you want to do, and asking weather or not they approve, and if not, what you would have to change in order for them to do so.


You are not alone.
Sol462
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 06:35
What about a [insert popular game here] clone not using their media, and freeware? Or would that depend on the specific developer and/or publisher?

Dave J
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 07:38
Quote: "sometimes even usage of media in this regard is frowned upon by the authors as the media in the first place is not allowed to be distributed from the original game.

giving it away for free does not dismiss you from copyright in certain situations."


Might even want to change that to "Most of the time". Yes, it is illegal, and very few companies are forgiving enough to not send you a cease and desist letter. I'd say in 90% of cases, if a company finds you distributing a fan game with their graphics, they'll ask you to stop.


Quote: "What about a [insert popular game here] clone not using their media, and freeware? Or would that depend on the specific developer and/or publisher?"


Also illegal. I know of several fan games that used characters (not actual media, but the design) from another game that have been shut down because they didn't ask permission. Basically, if you're going to use another companies IP without permission then you're breaking the law.

I don't know where people got the idea that because something's freeware, it doesn't make it illegal. This is completely untrue, you don't need to make money off something to break copyright laws.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Arkheii
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 11:17
What about a fan game that doesn't use rips of media from the original game?

Don't worry, be Wahoo!
MiR
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 12:05
Quote: " What about a fan game that doesn't use rips of media from the original game?"

Quote: "Also illegal. I know of several fan games that used characters (not actual media, but the design)"

I know of a Dragon Ball Z game that got shut down. I think it`s best to ask them to see if they let you. Perhaps showing previous work or asking if there was way of doing it (like advertising their latest game inside the game or something).


Thank you for the votez!1!
RegenProZ
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 13:12
To get things straight:

It is illegal to use anyones images/media unless you have permission.

"Why do people depend on each other? In the end you're on your own." - Squall
Jiffy
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 13:13 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2005 13:14
I din't understand why if you've made a fan game without using the media of other games and make them freeware they have to be illegal. As a result of my utter sadness I shall return to my fortress of solitude located in the centre of the Bermuda Triangle. Time to sink some ships!
Sorry, forget I said anything.... heheheh... *runs away*

Dave J
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 13:25
You're stealing their Intellectual Property, you're basically taken someone elses copyrighted ideas and using them yourself. Although most fan games are made with good intentions, it's still illegal to steal someone elses work (even if it isn't physical/electronic media).


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Flashing Blade
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 13:38 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2005 13:39
Quote: ""What about a [insert popular game here] clone not using their media, and freeware? Or would that depend on the specific developer and/or publisher?""

Also illegal. I know of several fan games that used characters (not actual media, but the design) from another game that have been shut down because they didn't ask permission.

I remember The Great Giana Sisters.


The word "Gullible" cannot be found in any English Dictionary.
Sephnroth
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 13:50
There was a freaking awesome chrono trigger remake in progress that was full 3d. It got slapped to kingdom come.

It really is a tight-rope subject - its sometimes possiable to balance along it but more often that not you're gonna fall off. Theres many types of fancreations - people with music talent like to remix game music from games they like (www.ocremix.org) - artists draw pictures or comics, writers write fanfic. Unfortunatly for programmers making a game is taking it a step further even if at heart its based on the same principle as other fan creations.

Thing is if that chrono trigger remake, for example, was finished then alot of people who MIGHT of bought an old copy of chrono trigger no longer would bother. Now thats REALLY stretching it as the original chrono trigger is so old. The problem really is that hobbiest/indi game devlopers are getting GOOD. Its damn hard to match latest technology, but even that we are getting closer and closer to (take dbp;s shader support). The risk for the game company is that a fancreation might actually turn out BETTER than their latest effort. Imagine if that chrono trigger remake turned out to be the best thing since sliced bread (and it really WAS looking to be that way, gorgous engine) and when square released a sequel this year a few people played it and then said it wasnt as good as the fan version, which incidently is FREE. Big problems.

HOWEVER - some companies will appreiciate respectful behaviour and return it - not always, but often. IE, find the website of the company who made the game you wish to base a game off, find an email address, write and ask. I know of people who have done this and got a positive response.

I even know one person who got sent a license to allow him to make his remake - oh it was VERY restrictive of course, but enough for him to make his lil contribution.

You should explain your idea and exactally what it is you want to do. I dont mean send them the story, I mean technicalities - do you wish to use their media, whats the intent for the game etc. Most of the time asking for permission to make a small fan-game with no charges and not using any media from the original game will be given an okay. You will obviously have more luck with older, retro, games than asking to remake say doom3. You can ask THEM what they dont want you to do, what restrictions you must adhere to etc.

You will be surprised how far simply asking can get you

Raven
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 15:27
If you try to release a game using a companies IP then you'll get a C&D Order. Simple as that really.

As far as the media goes believe it or not they don't give a flying monkies most of the time provided you credit the source. It's purely that your using thier IP without permission.

What's possible worse is very few companies will actually give you permission to use thier stuff. Not that many Fan Game developers even try.. that's something that ticks me off. I mean we had some guy about 6years back who bitched and bitched how Eidos had put a C&D on his work; how it was so unfair cause it was just going to be a free fan thing.

Which not to be funny but it's more a point of being able to protect your property against other companies who try to seal your ideas not against the fans; but sometimes because no money is going to be made from it heh

Well anyways.. it took 3 of us from the original development team of daily abuse to find out if he'd even bothered to try contacting us before to get permission. We had given out permission before cause due to our scheduals just couldn't release fan tools or such. Eventually got then answer no.

It's like this with everything though.
If you don't ask then you can't get permission, and if you have no permission then YOU are in the wrong.

I mean do you just walk into your parents house, see a cake on the counter and wolf it down; then get surprised when your mom comes in and yells at you cause it was for some party later? It's the same deal, if you'd just ask most it's likely you'll be allowed to.

Zergei
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 15:46
Whats a C&D Order?
MiR
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 15:53
Cease and desist. It means...stop.


Thank you for the votez!1!
Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 16:43
Basically a company will sue you if they think you're potentially stripping them of some cash. If you use their media or make a fan game without using their media, they can argue that a player of your game may not purchase their game as a result of getting their enjoyment fix from your product.

In a court, they can effectively sue for damages equal to the number of copies they may have sold (if you distribute 1000 copies of your freeware game, then they can sue for the cost of 1000 copies of their sales price). Plus court expenses, plus other expenses like losing the quality of their title name, losing marketting etc.

If you make a little game and 100 people download it, the chances of any come back are really slim, but it's not worth it. Besides, I think most people would rather see an original game than a rip off of an old title. You can still use similar ideas that made the old game fun - just revamp it and make it your own.

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 20:06
Quote: "I think most people would rather see an original game than a rip off of an old title. "


Amen. When people in the industry are bemoaning the flood of liscenced titles they have to work on (and have limited freedom with), the free fans are doing it voluntarily!

Please - be creative and original while you can
Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2005 20:35
Quote: "Please - be creative and original while you can"


... or die trying.

Satchmo
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Posted: 4th Sep 2005 16:00
crap your avatar is long indi

New episodes of family guy sunday!
Dazzag
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Posted: 4th Sep 2005 17:20
Or just release it onto FilePlanet or somesuch web storage site and don't tell anyone it's you. Make your pseudonym famous. Then it will spread like no tomorrow with a bit of clever name dropping. If it's a good game obviously.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Ermes
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 18:53
personally, my games are full of sega/nintendo/psx midi.
some magazine publish they as demo in their CD.
nobody ask me nothing, no problem at all.

Free Download for a Free World
go to my www to play RAVEN, THE FLIGHT OF RAVEN, SUNDAY DRIVERS and SUNDAY PANZERS!
Toby Quan
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 21:07
Well, for it being so illegal, there sure are quite a lot of Mario, Zelda and Sonic Flash games being made. Why, one only has to go into FlashPlayer.com to see several copyright violations.

I'm sure that even doing a game with someone else's IP is illegal, but the IP owners only focus on the largest of the offenders. They don't pursue every independant person making tiny flash games with their IP.
Dazzag
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 21:40
Quote: "I'm sure that even doing a game with someone else's IP is illegal"
Yep. But if you are doing it for no financial gain, and actually have no real links to it (just post it on fileplanet when your finished), then what are they going to do? Double tops if you are under 18. Like what on earth are they going to do to you? Give you detention for a week.

Personally I can't see how they can enforce something if you make no ties to it (Kazzaa or Torrents another good way to spread the games without any comeback - again if you leave your name out of it and deny all knowledge "I just got it from site X officer").

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
UnderLord
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 22:17
All you gotta do to avoid this little copyright and C&D stuff is to make the game your own you can still take the basic idea of any game but you have to alter it put something in the game that the original game (made by some big fat company) didnt put in...

For example if you wanted to make a game based off the idea of some space game and that space game had lets say trading and orbital combat.

You can take the original idea for that game make your own graphics add in orbital combat trading and then add in taking over planets or being able to own your own planets ECT.

Or atleast thats how i understand the law. Take the original idea but mold it into something that you alone made.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 23:15
.... or, you could just use your brain and a little bit of creativity to come up with an original idea. Never hurt anyone

All seriousness aside, I believe that IP law states if you don't make every effort to protect your IP from offenders, you will have a harder time protecting it in the future.

UnderLord
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Posted: 6th Sep 2005 02:05
Quote: ".... or, you could just use your brain and a little bit of creativity to come up with an original idea. Never hurt anyone
"


Who wants ot do that now adays when you got plenty of good and failed games that you can rip off?

But yes you should try and make it original!

When we talk to god, we're praying. When god talks to us, we're schizophrenic.
Fortune never calls on those that have no balls.
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 6th Sep 2005 20:41
Contact them

Love games go to http://www.freewebs.com/halorc
or
http://www.freewebs.com/gamersmad
JoelJ
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 23:33
(kinda bumping this...)

Quote: " I think it's best to contact that company first,"

unless it's Nintendo they're kinda cranky about their software/media, my brother made a Mario Quake game once, all his own media, just based off mario, and nintendo told him to stop else they'll sue...blahblahblah.

You can CLONE a game legally, if:
1) You don't use their title in it, example: you're making a Zelda clone, you can call the game Zelda blah blah, if you want, because you can't copyright the general name ZELDA, but you cant have a zelda clone called "The Legend of Zelda: Cone" (as far as I know you cant)
2) You use 100% YOUR media
3) You use 100% ORRIGINAL CODE, no ripping code etc.

but of course, there ARE the stupid software patents all over the place, but i personally dont worry about that


Eat some of dat cheese
Sol462
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 02:03
Quote: "All you gotta do to avoid this little copyright and C&D stuff is to make the game your own you can still take the basic idea of any game but you have to alter it put something in the game that the original game (made by some big fat company) didnt put in..."

So theoretically my Halo clone in the planning phase would work? I'm adding gametypes, vehicles, and other misc features. And for practice too.

JoelJ
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 04:14
it has to be 100% your's/your teams/OS/written concent
that way, you have no problemo


Eat some of dat cheese
Zergei
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 18:45
Oh well, so far my Zero game must wait until i can contact them or something comes up...
TDK
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 02:29
Another problem is that computer games have been around so long now, it's going to be quite difficult to come up with a 100% original idea that hasn't been done in some form or other already!

TDK_Man

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