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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Shaders (provide examples)

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Raven
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Posted: 4th Sep 2005 23:56
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Hey all,
Many of you out there seem to "need" Shaders for your games. Figured the best way to get this done might be through a request thing.

Rather than the normal "I want something like ya know that game no one's heard of..." or "I want Unreal 3 Graphics"

What I was thinking of your request what shader you'd most like, and provide an image and/or video of it in action for people to create them. This will help in 2 ways... firstly THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHAT YOUR BLOODY ON ABOUT. But more importantly that they have a visual respresentation so they don't spend several days on something and find out you don't have a clue what HDR ment and you actually ment Normal Mapping or something.

So probably the same as reason one.. It is an important reason!
Oh and remember this is a request thread, not a demand thread. You want to demand things try the Al'Queda Internet; we here prefer people to ASK when they would like something. We're not your web-monkies doing your every bidding, so be nice.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 00:21
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Well I would be happy to see examples of post process shaders as I think they would be the most easy to implement usful things that really acheive good results Also i'm not entirly sure how you would even use one in dbp as they work on the screen but dbp appears to only be able to apply shaders to objects o.o

On a related note raven, I sent an email earlier using the email button under your posts - not sure if thats an active email or not ^^ In relation to what i was talking about inside it I have actually made some pretty good progress on a shader to do the job that actually works and wouldnt mind discussing some ideas on refining it and your opinion on how things should be done (will all make sense when you read the email ^^)

Thanks

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FINN MAN
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 00:42
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Hi Raven good idea. Can some one make a Cel shading, with specular colours? Can some one also explain to me how I would use this, I mean how do I get it to work in my game.

Description : An enhanced version of the cel shader, which allows variable specular colours.

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Raven
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 02:28
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What do you mean by Variable Specular Colours?
Generally how a Toon Shader works is

Pass 1 - Calculate Phong Shading then by tolerance levels (using a Bias) shade the texture. This often happens in 3 levels, but depends on the cartoon effect.

Pass 2 - Use the Alpha to then draw a line around each object in Screen Space.

I've always found the Zelda : The Wind Waker the best Cartoon Shading.



it gives a more cartoon impression through almost purely shadowing rather than any real lighting.

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FINN MAN
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 02:48
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Raven I do not know what Variable Specular Colours are, I was hoping you would tell me. I just cut and pasted from the ogre3d website. Here is the link:

http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?set_albumName=album06&id=cel_shading_5&option=com_gallery&Itemid=55&include=view_photo.php
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Zealous
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 03:04
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I would much appreciate a basic water shader. I recall Raven saying its pretty easy to do, but the shaders used in the Dark Alliance series of console games I think is amazing.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/baldursgatedarkalliance/screens.html?page=230

It does no reflections, but does ripple when you walk through it.

The onlything I would be worried about, how would it look down at a lower angle. My current 'water' is just a giant plain, 2 polys. Could such a shader work with my setup?

All you need is zeal
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Raven
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 15:59 Edited at: 5th Sep 2005 16:01
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Yeah I know the one your on about, could sort that one out. I mean the easiest way is through Action-Controlled FFT. Basically just creates a dynamic normalmap the simulates fluid movement.

Although I've never been sure if Dark Alliance does it per-vertex or per-pixel; simply because of how high up the camera is. I have the game for the Gamecube and was trying to figure it out last night. Because of how 'tearing' it looks, I'd say it's more likely to do it per-vertex; with a per-pixel Caustic (distorts the texture giving the impression of reflective water).

Sephiroth, yeah I got your e-mail. Was long, and after checking out Dark Chronicle I couldn't actually find screenshots on thier site only teeny tiney movies. Lots of Concept Artwork though heh

I'd say a Depth Pass Edge Finder with AntiAliasing would do the trick. Reasonably quick and blended to the background. You can change it to work in Model rather than Screen space. There's an example in the NVSDK.

Prince of Persia - Gameplay Video

This is more because I can (i'm still enjoying using Register Fraps heh) 48MB 11minute gameplay video. In that time it shows off a huge number of Shaders though.

I was thinking perhaps work on a "Sand of Time" Shader Pack, with working/playable Dark Basic Professional Examples. It would take quite a bit of work to do, so was thinking of selling it for a bit.

Somewhere between £10-£20 ($20-40), which seems fair given there's over 25 Shader Effects in all. Lot's of common effects people are after right now.

Normal Mapping, Bloom, Interactive Water, Fog, Shadows, etc.

Well I'm working on it right now, so something to think about.

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 17:13
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A water shader that does'nt eat performance would be nice - there is a neat one in Nicks shader pack, if only there was something like that but faster.


Van-B

Put those fiery biscuits away!
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Sephnroth
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 17:15
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Yeah sorry about the length of the email Raven - one of my biggest problems (as anyone who ever reads my forum posts knows XD) is that I turn everything into a book - i seem to have issues with summing things up in little text because im worried there may be a misinterpretation in my needs if i dont convey every little detail and the thing I hate most in the world is having to tell someone who has done there best to help me out with something that what they have provided isnt actually what I wanted - I feel bad for wasting their time ;

I provided some screenshots in the email. I will be downloading the nvidia sdk as you suggest and looking up this depth pass edge finder. I have been playing with writing my own as I said before - it actually works just the edges arnt satisfactory - texturing is perfect though

The popsot-like shader pack sounds awesome! Would definatly be something I would consider purchessing when I have a little more moula in my account What I wouldnt mind though is a quick example (well not even that, just a telling) of how on earth you use post process shaders in db/darksdk envirorment. I have fiddled but really see no way to apply a shader to anything except an object and unless im totally wrong you are supposed to apply a post process shader to the screen/scene just once at the end of renderering rather than attempting to apply it to every object you have loaded - right?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 18:10
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Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicals has the best water I've ever seen. It looks superb and is real time.

http://media.cube.ign.com/media/479/479090/img_1925029.html

My programs on average: 500-2000 lines
An average GameCube game: 5000+
Windows XP: Too much to fit on this screen.
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FINN MAN
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 19:03
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Raven I would pay for good shader. $20-$40 sound good. I would defiantly buy it if you put the Cell shading in one of the shader packs.
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Raven
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Posted: 5th Sep 2005 23:39
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Trade Secret Sephiroth
I'll explain it when I have more time, but it's possible to actually rasterize your own rendering quad perfectly aligned to the screen with the shader itself that your rendering to.

Given how simple the shaders in FFCC are it does look jaw-dropping.
As for the Cartoon Shader, alrighty added to the growing list.

I'm trying to make a site right now, (joys of php) for setting this all up. If all goes well, hopefully be uploading individual working shader effects to digitally purchase by the morning. Or I'll have gone postal trying to find the creator of PHP

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Deadwords
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Posted: 6th Sep 2005 02:38
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I would pay for a custom or public great shader pack around 20$-30$. It would be awsome!!!

=-{SKaleX}-= Current Projects: -Insane Killer-=-Chaos Zone-
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Sephnroth
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Posted: 6th Sep 2005 16:15
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I got myself the sdk as you suggested raven and indeed the browser lists two line_Draw projects, one labled as post processing for the scene. Unfortunatly both entrys open the same effect file, scene_lineDraw.fx - looking inside the hlsl folder i only see that line draw fx too :/ I guess an error was made when they put the sdk together or they just didnt think the lineDraw designed for per object edge detection was worth it. But I cant figure out how to convert this fx to work on objects instead of the whole scene - any tips?

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DcZee
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 17:07
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Great idea Raven! Having a workable set of shaders for dbp would be awesome. I think tgc is planning to work on some kind of shader integration for version 6 but having working shaders in hand now would be well worth the price.

My requests would be:

1. good water effect
2. per pixel lighting
3. shadows
4. bump mapping

would be good for starters.

Thanks for the thought, you have my support for it.
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Raven
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 22:29
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alrighty seems people have a number of 'most wanted' shaders.
sephiroth i'll see if i can help later, still wrestling with php to make something worth while.. just keep confusing myself with it.

to damn easy to snowball things, and get confused to what's loading where, when and why.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 22:58
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@Raven: My request would not be a shader per-say, but a small package of VERY basic shaders that show how to make them yourself.. Like a practicle tutorial, maybe include things like challenges with example answers should the "student" get stuck. I would personally LOVE to know how these things work...

I also use PHP every day for work - whats the problem? Contact me on my email if you like...

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SFSW
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 00:29
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Quote: "4. bump mapping"


I second the request for this particular shader. Something that doesn't delete/remove an objects response to scene lighting (as the default shader with Pro does) would be great. A bump map shader that would still allow an object to respond to ambient lighting and created lights would be much more useful.
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Catalyst
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 00:51
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Quote: "A bump map shader that would still allow an object to respond to ambient lighting and created lights would be much more useful"


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't that mean that you specifically want something that is NOT a shader? A shader, purely because it's a shader and goes through a different pipeline, will no longer respond to DirectX lights and will require lights to be programmed into the shader itself. Which of course can still be done and controlled in real time in-game.
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SFSW
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 02:11
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Bummer, water shaders must not be able to reflect anything in a scene then, let alone light...
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FINN MAN
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 03:12
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Raven you are the man, this will be so cool when it is done.
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Catalyst
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 03:20
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@SFSW

Water shaders are typically just fed a reference image to use for reflections...much faster and looks quite nice. However, I'm certainly no expert on shaders by any means, but it should be possible to do real reflections in shader. It wouldn't be true to the DirectX lights, but you can probably get it to properly reflect objects. For water though, it probably would not really be worth it even if it is possible. Render time much longer for not that much better of an effect.
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SFSW
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Well, if bump mapping couldn't be applied with response to scene lighting, then it would be pretty much useless for anything other then stationary objects that don't move or rotate and never have a scene light cast upon it. Seems reasonable that it can be done since proper bump mapping can be seen in many recent games, I'm surprised to hear that such a shader would be considered an impossibility.
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The admiral
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 09:10
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Id prefer tutorials on how to use fxcomposer really. Because id like to be able to make my own shaders.

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Raven
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 09:16 Edited at: 8th Sep 2005 09:22
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I guess the problem depends on your definition of impossible, and/or your definition of reaction.

It is more than possible for a Hardware Shader to use any previous information created by the scene it's presently in. There is a limitation however conserning things like lights.

See one of the main issues is that Light 0 is the only light that you can use by the Shader without forcing the user to pass any data in. This might not seem so bad until you realise that Light 0 also happens to be the Ambient Light.

I don't see a problem replacing the current Bump Mapping Shader with one that works much more easily, however this would also require the user to actually pass in the light-data they want. Obviously if I make it in a way that it can take the previous model state; could effectively provide multiple passes for something.

Again this is a reason for providing these Shaders with example useage source. Simply because it can be quite a damn sight more efficient to provide some basic back'n'forth to show how to use a simple shader to create a more complex effect.

As far as Shaders go, nothing is impossible... although getting something to run real-time on all the hardware feels like it sometimes.

[edit] About a tutorial thing. I'll think about it. Not because it might take away business, given those who want to create them themselves probably will try'n'die so to speak; but more I'm really crap at getting to the point quickly and consisely.

It's something to think about though I guess.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 11:11
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Light 0 isn't ambient is it?! How come you cant set ambient to 0% and still have a point light as light 0 that give a kind of "unexplored" effect to terrains if you position it just above the player? (like my code in the RPG challenge did (stickied thread))

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 17:13
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Thanks Raven, your assistance would be appreiciated I did have a good long play with the lineDraw shader but I just cant figure out what makes it scene instead of object based - probably because im blind. I belive im perfectly capable of making the rest of the mods i desire to the shader myself, i just need some help with making it only work on one object instead of the entire screen XD

and yes I certainly know about that snowballing effect. Was writing a forum in php, thought wouldnt it be nice to add oekaki support to this forum (it was for an anime site), got really far then decided that oekaki part should be a seperate forum, wrote a gorgous oekaki forum then came back to my original forum and was like.. so. whats this code do then? Ah include files.. wonder which contains what.

lol

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Fallout
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 23:01
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Sorry for being such a killjoy, but it'd be nice to actually see some examples in a thread titled "Shaders (provide examples)".

Looks like it'll just be a whole bunch of requests and no solutions.

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Ric
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 00:08
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Quote: "Light 0 isn't ambient is it?! "


They're completely independent in all the situations I've ever come across.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 00:45
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Quote: "Sorry for being such a killjoy, but it'd be nice to actually see some examples in a thread titled "Shaders (provide examples)".

Looks like it'll just be a whole bunch of requests and no solutions. "


I think you misunderstand what he meant by examples. FINN MAN for example requested a cel shader then provided a picture as an "example" of what he wanted. Not all cases require an example though, so not all posts will have one.

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Raven
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 05:38 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 05:40
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This is purely more a request thread, so that Shader developers know which are interested in and the exact end-results they're hoping to get.

I've been designing a specific request system for my new site, as well as a simplistic/minimalistic forum to discuss them.

Also have finally finished finding out exactly which graphics card supports what (took ****ing ages.. thanks to both ATI and NVIDIA feeling there is no need to have comparison tables on thier site)

It's truely a mess and can see why most people are confused.

Remember people, pictures REALLY do help. Also will make this thread look good. For example a good request would be something like:

"I'm looking for a nice HDR Shader, as I saw one in Age of Empires III and it ROCKS! So something like this

"

Doesn't need to be long winded, most of the time an image will speak louder than words. So far many cries for even the basic stuff which I'm frantically working on.

Finally sorted out a real-time (not just environment) reflection and refraction shader in HLSL. Was a challenge getting it working in Pixel Shader 1.1 and at a quick speed; will show it once I get it working in DBP not just FX Composer.

You'd be surprised at just how many sites and such explain how to make an environment (cubemap reflection look-up) shader but not how to make one that reflects everything in the scene. Without direct DirectX access it was interesting doing it 100% in the Shader; normally you'd combine the stencil buffer pass from DirectX / OpenGL.

Keep the requests comming though. Also if you need any information at all one what the terminology means and such, (not specifically 'how do you do this in a shader' but more 'what does BRDF mean?') then let me know and I'll answer is asap as well as put it in the site FAQ on Shaders.

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Zealous
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 00:51
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Whoa nice screen.

Just a quick Q about HDR and other 'glowy'/'motion blur' effects in general - Is it something thats applied to the entire 'scene' or is it something you need to apply to each individual object. Is there even such a shader that would apply its 'effect' uniformly to all things rendered?

I would kill for a 'make my game look pretty' shader, that I initialize, and it makes all my objects glowy, or motion blured, ect... (ehe im sure thats not possible, but one can hope).

check out some screens from this game...





They say motion blur effects everything in the scene. More screens and info on this game here...

http://www.projectoffset.com/technology.html

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 01:10 Edited at: 11th Sep 2005 01:12
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Ok, I know it's usually stupid to ask a "Is this possible?" question, but hey - if you don't ask, you don't get laughed at.

So, would it be possible (given time and very clever people) to make a shader editor that exports DB happy shaders? Something like Rendermonkey or *mumblemumbleUnrealmumble*.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/MaterialEditor.jpg

Essentially, the less powerful, but nicer interface version with drag and drop modifiers and real time updates. Modifiers like 'dot product', '1/x', 'camera vector', 'clamp', 'constant' (that you could change in the editor), 'time', 'sine', etc - possibly even going in to different feeds like 'diffuse', 'alpha', 'normal' etc.

I'm not asking for it now, I just want to know if on a scale of 1 to nightmare, where it would fit.
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Zealous
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Yeah it would be nice to get some shader creation software for dbpro.

Perhaps it would be better to just make DBpro compatible with the already existing shader creation software though. No point reinventing the wheel.

All you need is zeal
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Raven
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 09:07
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That would be nice, but personally I'd want to wait until there was a viable Shader System. Right now it's limited and lacking.

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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 10:58
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Can you do a water shader that gets affected by particles and that sort of thing

New dbpro site unleashed go to
http://www.freewebs.com/darkbasicpro
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David T
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 14:46
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My request is simple - a water shader that can be applied to a plane that works with PS 1.1 (i.e. lower end gfx cards).

Doesn't need to break the bank in terms of beauty - no need for reflections etc

If anybody ould come up with something liek that, I'd be really grateful

http://www.signaturedevices.com/MOHPA/images/screen94.jpg

That's nice but does have reflections, I wouldn't be fussed if it didn't reflect and simply distorted whatever texture was on the plane.

Thanks

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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Resident Evil 4 fanboy
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 16:04
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so...beutiful

I have a shot gun and im not afriad to use it against chainsaw weilding bad guys!

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dark coder
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 20:00
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i dont think the screenshot davidT posted looks that impressive, the water looks like a highly tiled wave effect, something more random so it doesnt look tiled would be better.


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David T
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 21:44
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Granted it does look a bit too tiled.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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Raven
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 04:01
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Problem with Evironment Shaders right now is that there is no way to physically tie in how you would normally get the Environment to a DBP Compatible Texture (would need to be done via Dx); so the only other solutions are internal projection and raytracing.

In both cases it becomes quite slow.

Quote: "Can you do a water shader that gets affected by particles and that sort of thing "


Possible but perhaps only Vertex 2.0 only.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 15:47
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Why is the water one so hard?

I recall seeing a shader that made a brick wall look like it was 3D (I believe it was a form of bump-mapping or normal-mapping).. Could this be applied to a water-type shader so that it looks like the waves are 3D but really it's just a 2D plain?

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Chenak
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 15:57
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Because DBP has lame shader support. It has an obscure way of loading shaders and doesn't support some of the good functions (like environment mapping?). Thats pretty much why i think.
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 19:01
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In layman's terms that water effect seemed to use refraction/reflection, which I think are hard/impossible to do properly in DBPro (I think, please correct me as that was just what I gather).

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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 19:16 Edited at: 12th Sep 2005 19:16
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Quote: "Possible but perhaps only Vertex 2.0 only"


thanks

New dbpro site unleashed go to
http://www.freewebs.com/darkbasicpro
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Raven
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Posted: 13th Sep 2005 06:50
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Quote: "In layman's terms that water effect seemed to use refraction/reflection, which I think are hard/impossible to do properly in DBPro (I think, please correct me as that was just what I gather)."


Pretty much, because the way you would normally do it is by creating a RenderTarget specifically to create a cubemap of the scene rendered. Only DBP doesn't have this, and while I could create the cubemap... problem is the only way to get it into DBP is to put it in a memblock which is then converted to a texture and used in the Shader.

Again your looking at a silly speed loss. All because the direct access to the pipeline is currently concealed from the public. While I've been given some things to sort this out by Mike, I still don't have direct access to creating DBP textures.

To be honest, the DBP Object Pipeline is a mess. Feels far more complex that it needs to be. I'm sure I'll figure something out once I figure out how to do the website I'm working on.

ridiculous, it's taken me almost what... a week to do this:

http://www.liandrisoft.com/test-01.htm

and that's only half of what I want to do. In mozilla I have no issues getting what I want done, but in Explorer god forbid I want to do what I want.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 13th Sep 2005 11:35
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Raven - if you need a hand with web-development stuff, drop me a mail.. I'm a webdeveloper by day and a sleeper by night hehe.
I also know the pain of Internet explorer.. I had a SUPERB one yesterday - IE lost the ability to create a floating hyperlink! It'd style it and it would LOOK like a link, but it wouldn't ACT like one. No surprise it worked on litterally everything else (including Safari!)

My Website:
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Raven
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Posted: 13th Sep 2005 13:03 Edited at: 13th Sep 2005 13:03
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This is what I'm trying to achieve right now.



Basically the effect is a tab-menu on one side and the other is the title to that given product.

The top one for the page again is just another simple banner title with a breadcrumb-back button. I've not issues doing the Corners, cause it's easily done using Javascript.. done it before. Same goes for the background code for the site as a whole.

All I'm worried about right now is getting the visual side of things done. Probably just the artist in me, but I want to make sure the site has a very recognisable solid design.

Everything Blue I want to make personalised, so people can change it to any colour they want and save it to thier profile. Again not something hard to do via PHP Generating some images and coloured pixels on-load.

If you could help me think of a way to get the first tab one done that'll be peachy. I've asked several other people, but this time I'm relying more on myself to get stuff done as I've had problems with people getting things done in the past. Most will say "yeah alright no problem I can do this such'n'such" and then disappear, or become busy or forget. Always without ya know letting me know there are problems.

This way atleast I know something is getting done.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 13th Sep 2005 14:03
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You know - you might just be in luck.. I've recently done a tabbed menu system for a members area at work. It uses relatively positioned DIV's with PNG tab images. In IE I have to use the AlphaImageLoader filter to get the nice shadows, etc but Firefox and Safari, etc all handle PNG's properly and nicely

I'll try to knock up a quick example for you this afternoon

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Raven
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Posted: 15th Sep 2005 01:31
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still waiting on that example, you said you'd have it done like a day ago

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