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Geek Culture / George A. Romero's Land of the Dead

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Fallout
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 02:38
Did any of you guys go and see this film today, or have plans to see it soon? It's not released in the UK until the 23rd for some muppet of a distribution or marketting reason. I'm hearing good things, and Romero's trilogy are already the greatest zombie horrors ever made. I'm pretty sure this one will be as intelligent as his last offerings, but I wanna get some first hand feedback!

I've always been a fan of Romero and it's about time someone gave him a load of cash to make his masterpiece. Any of you got an opinion?

TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 02:43
nope, is it better than shaun of the dead? if so, i might.....

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Fallout
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 02:48
It's not a comedy mate, so will be a totally different film. His previous ones have been massive forboding horrors with a cunning method of addressing current affairs at the same time. He normally takes the piss out of a few aspects of society and draws some comparisons between the zombies and various modern entities. It's cool how in dawn of the dead you have a tense zombie thriller, while addressing the issue of how consumerism entraps us and how we're all mindless zombies to it.

Disembowling study of society. His gore is also generally relentless, like proper intestines being ripped out in full view of the camera while the victim is screaming. Plenty of cringing moments. Horrific, yet intelligent. That's what I'm expecting and hoping for.

Sephnroth
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 02:54
Oh yay, more crap thrown out as art to be acclaimed by anyone wanting to seem mature in aspects of taste and perception. Now lets all go admire this brick on a podium in the modern art musuem.

Seriously though - "like proper intestines being ripped out in full view of the camera while the victim is screaming" - just not nessiary. If it truely is nessiary to convey a point or meaning then you have to wonder about the heart of the point/meaning and if it was even worth making. If it wasnt then its just a dirty flick for people to get off on and if you enjoy seeing something like that then theres deep problems somewhere.

Its a wonder really - life is full of plenty of real horrific horrors and tradegies, depression, problems and misdeads every day pretty much everywhere. You'd truely have to be a human to want to fill your recreation time with it as well.

Jeku
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 03:23
I just saw Cannibal Holocaust the other night, and I'm still scarred. Now *that* was a realistic movie. The director even got thrown in jail in Italy because the government thought the cannibalistic rituals were done on real humans.

That being said, the John Romero movie was out here a few months ago but I missed it because of work. I will rent it when it gets released on DVD though

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 03:59
@Sephnroth

None of it's that bad. You're over-reacting. You'd be better of preaching those views to some delinquent kid who is likely to replicate that disemboweling on his mates grandma. I'm a well rounded adult who sees it for what it is.

If you can tell me exactly what the boundary is for violence and when to draw the line, I'd be interested. Or isn't that subjective too?

Deep Thought 42
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 04:07
oh boy. more zombies craving more human flesh. If I want to see that I would just go and play resident evil. Why is it entertaining to see someone disemboweled in the movies ?

"Winners never quit and quitters never win. But those who never win and never quit are idiots."
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 04:10 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 04:11
It's not. It's horrific. That's the point. It makes the zombies more intimidating and gives the movie more impact. Some people might find it entertaining, but they're probably not entering into the idea of a zombie appocolypse which is pretty damn scarey - they're just slasher gore fans.

I don't get this problem with violence? Shall we have the zombies just playing tag. "Ooo ... tag, you're infected!!!" How do you portray a sense of dread and fear for the evil characters (the zombies) in the film if they're only allowed to nibble on ya little finger?

Sephnroth
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 04:35
FOR F**CKS SAKE. I just spent 20 minutes writing a nice long book explaining my points of view, why I have them, answering points like some fallout just made whilst i was writing it, reflecting on a ton of other crap and when i posted it BROUGHT ME TO THE SAME DAMN WHITE PAGE IT WAS DOING BEFORE.

and when you press the back button.. its all gone. This makes me so damn angry.

summed up in an inadequete way: the world has real horror everywhere all the time. We dont really need to make our own up as well.

Oh theres counters to that like "makes you feel better to witness someone elses horror" or what not which I also covered >< I even managed to somehow tie in a jab at armed police, special forces and the world of modern art. sigh. if i write it again i will post it as a html and link to it ><

Jeku
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 09:45
Quote: "the world has real horror everywhere all the time. We dont really need to make our own up as well."


Who are you to say what I need? Everyone has different tolerance levels for violent content. My aunt thinks Bambi is too violent for kids. Like previously posted, I could tolerate a movie like Cannibal Holocaust. But seriously--- people like you are the reason the U.S. congress is giving violent video game producers such trouble.

Anyone who is an adult can decide the violence they can and can't tolerate, thank you very much.

Wiggett
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 10:03
hah yeah i saw land of the dead, had to force my housemate to go see it with me, and he was like i dont wanna so i paid for him. boy was that a mistake. "sir should we blow up this movie? no, it's just lookin for a place to go, just like us." i was so like wtf?! they are zombies yeah they are looking for somewhere to go, somewhere to go eat people!!!! so many corny parts in the film specially the samoa cars to people ratio bit.

Van B
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 10:51
The thing with zombies, is you young whipper-snappers just don't get the point. Some of us grew up with Romero's zombie flicks - hell Dawn of the Dead is still one of my favourite films, just bought the DVD last weekend of both movies (old and new version) and the old version with it's orangey intestines is far better. I really liked the survival aspects of Dawn, like finding a shedload of tinned ham would be like finding a gold mine in a situation like that. Almost makes you crave a zombie invasion just so you can see if you'd survive.

I'll go see it, and I'll probably like it regardless of how cheesy it is, it's the walking dead after all, you can't walk about while dead and not look a little rediculous . The thing to remember is that zombies are just not scary, someone slowly dragging their feet towards you moaning is not frightening, I'm more fascinated by the stupidity of the living in these movies. I would say that the scariest zombie film, like the most disturbing would have to be 28 days later, I love it but I can't watch it very often - that's a kinda brutal film, like the director added some elements to make it more striking, while really just cheapening the whole movie. For instance the ending, or the dead baby, or the dad getting killed just before they find 'help'.


Van-B

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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 11:26 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 11:29
Quote: "the world has real horror everywhere all the time. We dont really need to make our own up as well."


The point of a movie is to invoke a particular emotion, if the director's aim is to give you a fright or make you feel sick, then he can effectively portray it through methods used in said zombie movies. There is a world of difference between entertainment horror and the stuff you see on the news, I'm not going to look at a car crash to get the same feeling I see when I watch a horror film. For one thing, movies are there for entertainment values, as soon as you show something real, the entertainment goes out the window. Just because there are horrific events in the world doesn't mean we should banish all horror movies.

Having said that, I don't really enjoy horror movies at all, would rather watch a good thriller. But that doesn't mean I think we should get rid of them.


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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 12:32
I think violence in movies and games allows us to explore the violence and satisfy out natural curiousity in full knowledge that nobody is actually getting hurt. I can understand why a murder investigation cop wouldn't want to watch Frost on a satuday evening because murder investigation is too close to home. Similarly, I know an officer in the army who doesn't really watch any war films because they're too close to home and he can't stand the inaccuracy.

At the end of the day, the world is filled with horrible twisted happening, but most of us never experience them (which is a good thing!). The closest we get to them is a few news articles on TV. We hear about a terrorist siege on a building and it sounds bad, but we don't experience it. If someone releases a films with some violent terrorist siege, it's likely to catch out curiousity and interest. If one of us had been stuck in the middle of some terrorist siege, we're unlikely to go see the movie, because it might just be too real.

I just think the argument that there's too much violence and nastiness in the world already is a little flawed because very few of us are actually touched by it. Most of us happily carry on with our everyday lives oblivious to it except for the highlight on the news in the evening.

@Van B

You've got it mate. I've got the whole trilogy. You have to look past the cheese factor and see the underlying theme, which is an appolypse unlike any other - one where you, me and your friends could survive. But how would you survive and what would you become? Like you said, Romero doesn't go all out to scare the crap out of us, but instead goes to great lengths to portray a world that truly feels desolate and ask that question "what sort of person would you become?".

I'm liking the fact he's not modernised his zombies and made them run like all these new zombie movies - he's stuck with the old skool. I personally will look beyond the cheese and see what it has to offer. Hopefully he'll have completed the Quadrilogy (is there such a word?) in style.

You know there's a game in here somewhere, I just think it'd be hard to realise it. I'm not talking about a zombie shooter ... I'm thinking a survival game that capturers that Romero vibe.

Van B
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 13:57
Quote: "You know there's a game in here somewhere, I just think it'd be hard to realise it. I'm not talking about a zombie shooter ... I'm thinking a survival game that capturers that Romero vibe."


Yeah, I mentioned this a week or so ago, I'd love to see a Zombie game where you just survive, no finding the right fuse and the orange key so you can defeat mid-game baddie with all 4 of your remaining bullets. Really a Mall is perfect, and the part where they decoy the zombies in the first Dawn is a great example of the sort of thing sensible people would try. A game where you have a few locations and need to survive as long as possible would be great, using a physics engine and allowing barring doors etc is really all Zombie fans need. Anyone who is considering making a zombie game should be playing RE4, there's so much that's spot on in that game that it just oozes coolness - I'd usually never replay a survival horror game, but RE4 just keeps calling you back. The problem is that these survival horror games are more about solving puzzles and revealing conspirances than actually surviving, someone needs to flip it around to the way it should be. There's a cool mode in RE4 where you just have to survive wave after wave of zombie, but it's kinda relentless, you can never get away and hide for a bit - a game where you can hide and invent survival strategy would be a nice change, like deciding how best to stock up on food, trap zombies, get through waves of zombies, aquire weapons, maybe even meet up with other survivors.


Van-B

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 14:19
I did cover all of these points in my reply that got lost, im very pissed its gone. It would of hopfully also made my stance on "Who I am to Tell You <WhateverHere>" very clear.

People like me are -not- the reason why trouble is being kicked up about violance in video games. Violance in video games is the reason why trouble is being kicked up about violance in video games. Its quite simple really.

As I already commented on the invoke a particular emotion, thrill thing i'm reluctent to say again - but here in my main post I said we would have to agree to disagree as everyone can merely say "subjective" and "matter of opinion" and other such words/phrases to simply tie up the situation. But I do belive this is important, ESPCIALLY FOR JEKU to understand - I have never questioned someones personal right to decide whats too violant or what they personally get to watch. Choose away! It has nothing to do with me.

No, what I question is the path this world has taken to get it to the point where watching another human become ripped apart on the screen infront of you, organs and all, has become appealing to alot of people regardless of wether or not its real or their "ultimate aim". Personally, I think its messed up big time.

Anyway I have litrally just woken up and my eyes arnt even completly open yet. I'm going to go freshen up and may make a more througher post later.

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 14:23
haha. Almost the sims meets doom 3. Definitely survival is the way forward. It'd almost be like an RPG in the respect you'd have to find food, put it in ya backback, eat when you're hungry, collect items that might be useful to you later - maybe lock picks to get into shops and houses (probably a bad example, but you get me). I also like your suggestion of using physics to barracade doors. That's definitely a good idea.

Of course, there'd have to be a goal else the game would never end. Perhaps the goal would be like that of Day of the Dead - find a chopper, find a desert island and kick back! And I feel it couldn't really be level based. You'd need to have a free roaming world. And there'd also have to be a superior melee combat type system - something that allows you to strike zombies and aim for the head, grapple with them and throw them off and basically fight such that they're not just hitting you and damaging you. When they bite you the game is over.

Hmmm, I think it'd be a truly tough one to properly capture the vibe, but its a nice one to think about.

Sephnroth
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 14:25
Quote: "Who are you to say what I need? "


and whilst I am at it, who the hell are you to say if I can state my opinion publically? I dont recall personally saying "Jeku is stupid for doing this. Jeku should only be allowed this." - the closest I got was using the word "we" a few times, thats a generalised expression and simply a turn of phrase.

Quite simply if I think something is messed up I belive i'm allowed to express my sentiments on that subject freely, i'm sorry if that made you uncomfortable.

We'll have to face it though, one mans freedom is anothers prison. One is ALWAYS bought with the other somewhere, fooling yourself if you think you are truely free

Van B
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 15:13
Fallout,

Yeah, that's the ticket. One thing I'd like is if you could have a squad of friendlies - but if one get's bitten they don't die right away, like you could end up trapped with a bitten buddy and once they turn you'd have to kill them as well - there's so many avenues with zombie games that have not been explored . It think the ultimate aim in a game like that could only be survival, like maybe a realistic day/night cycle, and each day is like a level - maybe you have to survive for 1 week, but each day introduces a fresh batch of zombies who are basically drawn to the last remaining survivors. It should be a shortish game, becuase it's the sort of thing you'd play over as long as it was dynamic enough. Maybe each day could be an average session, like play a new day every day sorta thing - a proper survival horror should be damn compulsive, the sorta game you have to play.

Jeku and Seph,
Can we get back to the subject of how cool zombies are?

Really I'm desensitised due to a heavy dose of Freddy Krueger as a kid - modern horror films don't scare me, like Jeepers Creepers is a joke. I love older style horror movies because of the imagery. Haven't you noticed how the only people who get dissembowled are those irritating, selfish and arrogant characters who always deserve it?. It's a matter of taste, but really I think the worst movies out there are the ones that condescend their audience, Hugh Grant makes my skin crawl worse than any flesh eating windowlicker.

You have to watch old horrors as if they were artsy French movies, because a lot of them are simply stunning. Pumpkinhead, for example is a real sad story about vengence, but the atmosphere they managed to create has simply not been bettered, and Pumpkinhead must be 18 years old by now.


Van-B

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Arkheii
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 15:29
Quote: "Yeah, that's the ticket. One thing I'd like is if you could have a squad of friendlies - but if one get's bitten they don't die right away, like you could end up trapped with a bitten buddy and once they turn you'd have to kill them as well - there's so many avenues with zombie games that have not been explored"


I think a faulty implementation of this was done in The Thing game.

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 15:55 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 16:03
I still thing it's a really tough undertaking. There are no technical difficulties in this game, although there would be some semi-advanced tech like the physics for example. The difficulties would definitely come from emmersing and totally convincing the player.

I think a key feature would be total interactivity. I have this kinda vision for this game where you could be out in the wilderness (kinda like the original Night of the Living Dead) and you barracade yourself into a house. Like you said Van B, a physics system would allow you to slowly drag a couch over and block the door, but zombie AI would mean they'd relentlessly smash into it, moving it bit by bit (doors would also need health/damage so they'd also break eventually). You'd need to use the physics system to rig up a few items so the door was properly lodged closed. Perhaps a system that allows you to nail it shut, including windows etc.

I have this cool vision of the player with a revolver with 4 shots left and 50 zombies outside. Most action games you'd shoot 4 in the head then get ready for hand to hand. In this game, you'd save those bullets until they were right on top of you. I'd like to see the building filled with items and interactivity. Opening draws and pulling out kitchen knifes, hammers in a tool box etc. Maybe you can set fire to things to scare the zombies off and watch them burn.

Eventually you're gonna have explored the whole house and all you can do is watch the doors and windows slowly buckle and begin to break, so you'd better have planned your escape. Perhaps you've been upstairs and been ambushed by a zombie already inside when you were too concerned with house to secure the house - that would make you jump! And now you think you're only escape route is to wait until the zombie are right on top of you and most have filtered into the house, then climb out of the upstairs window onto the porch roof and jump (hoping not to hurt yourself and slow down your run speed). Then you're gonna have to run for that car you saw parked outside seeing as you found the keys in the kitchen draw. But it's gonna take some speed and dexterity to get that lock open, get inside and lock the doors and drive off before they're upon you again. If they catch up with you too quick, you're gonna have to leg it on foot in the darkness ... or maybe try and lead them away then get back to the car.

I mean, how awesome does that sound? How tense does that sound? And not a single shot fired, although maybe when you're about to get into the truck and only one zombie is close enough to get you, you'll be popping off a few rounds to aid your escape. I also really like the idea of the group member getting bitten. Do you cruelly execute him while he's still alive, or do you wait for him to turn? Maybe he was with you in that house while you were upstairs looking for wood to board up the windows and when you came back down, he came for you. Creapy stuff!

See, amazing possibilities, damn hard to code!

Edit: Oh, you'd also need energy, fatigue etc. It'd be tempting for players to just run around in the wildness dodging the slower zombies, but any pace higher than walking tires you out pretty quickly. You can't outrun them for ever. Also your player would need to sleep, so when that energy bar is almost empty, like the Sims, maybe make yaself a coffee to buy you some time, but eventually you're gonna have to find somewhere safe to sleep - somewhere where you can be sure you'll wake before the zombies are upon you if they get close. Use the physics system to balance a glass bottle on the door handle, for example. When the zombies come piling it, the bottle falls and breaking glass produces a specific volume of sound that will wake you, then make sure you have your weapon ready, or your escape route planned.

Van B
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 16:34 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 16:36
The fatigue thing would be quite tricky to get right - but I reckon that if your fatique is like the running in GTA, you get too tired you can't run. Like you might be running from zombies in the woods, and you end up getting slower and slower so you need to find places to catch your breath, like being strategic about how close you let the zombies get. Ideally you could go from a small place in the woods to a bigger hideout, so having to travel between each hideout would be a big part of the game, perhaps even spending days just preparing to leave.

With a good physics engine, a lot of the complex stuff would be take care off. For example, say you wanted to board up a door - well because you'd have the walls and door as physics enabled objects and they would react together, you could effectively nail planks of wood etc to doors to block them. Like although the door is still mobile, a static physics object, like a plank of wood would prevent it opening, and perhaps measure the forces hitting the planks to detect when to enable mobility and these planks should come flying off . Kinda strange, but a physics engine like Newton would chop out a massive chunk of the coding work for you, it's really more a concearn of setting up your objects for physics, but once you've told newton what's what it kinda takes care of everything for you. I'm experimenting with some Newton stuff currently, so I'll try and make a little demo showing this based on the example Walaber already supplies (with the Newton SDK there's an awesome little physics enabled FPS demo). I reckon you should consider this as a next project Fallout, sounds like the sort of thing that you'd never get sick of working on.


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TKF15H
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 16:50
I really liked Dawn of the Dead... espetially the the old one. If it were ever made into a game, I picture it being an ORPG. There's no point to it other than staying alive and completing quests is part of survival (like find supplies for a NPC). Teaming up with other players increases chances of survival. The only differences would be:
A) No leveling up. Stuff like armor/weaponry would compensate for that.
B) First Person View, as shooting zombies in the head is more fun this way.
When a player gets infected, he has to play as a stupid zombie till he gets killed. Dunno how you'd make a zombie player want to turn on his living teammates though.
It could all be done without the "online" part, but I don't like the idea of teaming up with AI bots as much as teaming up with other players.
Whole lot of work though... anybody wanna start a community project?

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 18:40
Well, I'm never even gonna attempt an online game, but I do definitely see the appeal of it. I'd imagine you could encourage players to play zombies after death, or maybe you'd just reincarnate their player as an AI zombie, so that when the player comes back with a new character, they might just bump into their dead self trying to eat their brains!

@Van B

I'd love to work on a project like this, but if I did it'd be something for the future. As it stands, I'm working on a project called Claymore Island which is zombie based but it's more action/comedy oriented. Claymore Island is very attainable, where as this one would require a load of effort (although I agree I doubt I'd get bored with it).

I really like your idea of travelling between zones. Maybe that could be the game goal - get from A to B. You have a massive map with A and B and a load of locations in between. Like you said, you need to plan your journies, stealthy moving through an infested village to find food, supplies, clothes and weapons so that you can get to the next village. Once you're tooled up and rested, you need to escape with as few seeing as possible. You'll have to traverse woods, rivers, bridges etc. all riddled with corpses.

The slow moving speed of all these zombies makes it possible to walk into a house having never seen it before and start barricading it up, where as in other games the monsters would be on top of you the minute you were inside.

Anyways, yep, it's definitely tempting! Once Claymore Island comes to a close, I might just think about it.

Oh, what the hell ...

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 20:59
@Sephnroth - No point in arguing this anymore--- we both are on opposite ends of the spectrum obviously. No hard feelings

Back on topic:

A survival game, involving REAL life survival is an awesome idea. And TKFISH brought up a cool idea where if you were bitten, you'd slowly turn against your own. It would be great if the AI would take over for a few seconds initially, and that would increase more and more as the game progresses, until finally the AI would have complete control over your character and you'd be forced to start attacking your friends.

IanM
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 21:05
Quote: "Hugh Grant makes my skin crawl worse than any flesh eating windowlicker"


Amen to that.

Quote: "Dunno how you'd make a zombie player want to turn on his living teammates though"


Eating live brains restores you? Mind you, there would probably be someone in your team who'd like to stock up on brains before they got infected ... I know a few people I wouldn't turn my back on in that kind of situation ( <--- Me with my brain eaten)

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 21:58
IanM finally shows his true intelligence. Look at how small that hole is in his head to take out his brain! And don't give me that "They whisked it all up and slurped it out like the ancient Egyptions" rubbish. We all know the truth, pea brain!

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 22:41
Quote: "Eating live brains restores you? Mind you, there would probably be someone in your team who'd like to stock up on brains before they got infected ... I know a few people I wouldn't turn my back on in that kind of situation ( <--- Me with my brain eaten)
"



ROFL!

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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 11:59 Edited at: 10th Sep 2005 12:00
I still don't reckon Land of the Dead was hat good. Sure, it was better than the Resident Evil movies - they were just insulting. Anyway, nothing beats playing RE, except maybe being in RE (now that I think about it, that would be pretty scary ).


Got to love Resident Evil 0! Currently playing for the: 5th time

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