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Geek Culture / Mac-> Intel switch, will it effect us?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 13:50
Well, now that Mac are going to Intel, theory says, developers will find it easier to make programs compatible with both mac and PC as they use the same make of processors, and supposededly 3DS max and SoftImage are thinking of going mac now...

My question is, will DBP? why? well, it will open it up more for development, basic language 3D development isn't on the Mac (or from my knowledge) think of the money in it £££ $$$!!! As you will be more popular, more games for Mac...
and most importantly....

I would think that would be sweet, I know the problem will be that you've depended on DirectX on this, but well, I wanna know if its possible for you guys and if you have plans for it

John Y
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 14:02
RegenProZ
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 14:32
Wouldn't of thought so, dbpro as you said relys on directx.

If your a mac user, and you wanner use dbpro, then go get windows

Baggers
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 14:34 Edited at: 17th Sep 2005 19:27
[EDIT- Self pruned due to needless anger]
yeah this time I agree !

RegenProZ
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 14:36
I don't think I like Baggers

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 15:46
Quote: "If your a mac user, and you wanner use dbpro, then go get windows "


Windows user, who is held to windows by a few apps, one of which is DBP, wants to switch to mac

Raven
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Posted: 17th Sep 2005 18:30
Quote: "No, it's not going to happen"


Fair enough.. next tell that to Steve Job.
As far as development goes, depends how they impliment everything.

Microsoft have broken the whole development barriers with .NET CLR MSIL, but then again you could always use Java. I think from what I've understood what the OS itself will do is simply convert the runtime code, so you can't expect native PPC or x86 software to run as quickly in MacOSX running on the other. Yet from what I understand the difference itself isn't that far from MSIL.

Will have to wait until next year to see what Apple come up with. Have heard of copies of this x86 MacOSX floating around already, oddly Apple's Developer site has absolutely nothing about it though. So I'm going to hold off these so called leak rumours.

As far as using a Mac goes, it's going to be a more grey area imo to what that means. Traditionally it was PPC = Mac, but now that's not going to be the case. With Microsoft supporting PPC in Vista, well that just adds to the confusion to what a PC (IBM-Compatible) will mean.

IanM
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 16:05
Quote: "theory says, developers will find it easier to make programs compatible with both mac and PC"


Rubbish. That's probably the *least* important part of the machine. For a library or program that is compatible with either OS, it only requires a recompile, which is the cheapest part of the development process.

The real expense and difficulty relies on the developer writing the compatible code in the first place, which is a major effort when it comes to gui code. Luckily this is being made easier with gui libraries being publically available that are designed for cross-compatibility.

It doesn't stop there though - there are lots of OS level libraries on both windows and mac that are available on one platform but not the other, or that operate in totally different ways when being available for both, and this requires that those libraries be written for the platform that they don't appear on, and compatability layers be written for those where they are different.

To reiterate, the target processor family is the least important part of the development process ... unless you are writing major apps in assembly

DX on mac? Why should MS develop for a competing product? It ain't gonna happen in this decade

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Arkheii
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 16:42
Depends on how they approach it. They could release an Intel powered G6 and things would be pretty much the same, or they could release a PC ready version of Mac that we can install happily on our current PC b0xen. The latter sounds better, but I think they'd have to make a lot of changes, with stuff like driver problems to worry about.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 16:48
Quote: "DX on mac?"


Never said it would, I thought the DX was an obstacle of DBP getting on the mac, as it is DX based, or so I heard,
as for mac OS on PC, theres supposed to a release of it coming out, whether its true or not

IanM
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 17:29
It's true - Apple recently made an agreement with Dell to provide dual-boot system, but it's probably some way off yet.

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Raven
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 18:05
Quote: "To reiterate, the target processor family is the least important part of the development process ... unless you are writing major apps in assembly "


true given a huge percentage of Macware is coded in Visual Studio anyways, has been for a while. I'm actually waiting for them to port that to Mac, would be nice.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 19:28
and Microsoft office was programmed on apple macs, that always makes me laugh

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 22:42
It was? Are you sure?

indi
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Posted: 18th Sep 2005 23:05
it means dual boot intel based macs are going to be yummo

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JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 00:06
Quote: "So I'm going to hold off these so called leak rumours."

So called eh? are you saying you don't believe them? hahahahahahahaha, i'll have you know, i know someone who is using MAC OSX on their AMD Athlon64 based computer, without a single problem.

Quote: " and Microsoft office was programmed on apple macs, that always makes me laugh "

Quote: " It was? Are you sure?"

I strongly doubt it, unless he's talking about the VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY First version of Office, while windows was still DOS and mac was the only graphical OS (I have no idea at all about when Mac came out with their graphical interface, so i'm just pulling crap out of my butt)

And I honestly have a slight feeling that a lot of the computer buisness is going to drift towards the MAC, it seems so much better, more secure, more userfriendly, it's prietter (which seems to be the big thing right now) and i've always been ANTI-MAC and could never stand touching the things, but MAC OSX really stands out to me, but i have yet been able to try it out yet, but i'm honestly thinking about getting an ibook with X on it.

I believe that if TGC made a GL version of DBP, just change the libraries to use GL, that there would be a jump in buyers. GL is just such a better alternitive to DirectX, it's probably not quite as powerful quite yet, but it runs on any computer.
But TGC said time and time again, they are never going to make a GL version, but i think they should hire two or three GL programmers to port it for them maybe if enough users asked for it, they would THINK about it...Linux and MAC is just comming out with better and better solutions over Windows.


Eat some of dat cheese
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 01:07
Quote: "maybe if enough users asked for it, they would THINK about it...Linux and MAC is just comming out with better and better solutions over Windows."



So...mac and Linux fans boys got anything to say


Quote: "hahahahahahahaha, i'll have you know, i know someone who is using MAC OSX on their AMD Athlon64 based computer, without a single problem."


great, the rumours are true

Quote: "I strongly doubt it, unless he's talking about the VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY First version of Office"



Dunno what version, I just know it was one of them, possibly the first edition

Raven
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:01
Quote: "and Microsoft office was programmed on apple macs, that always makes me laugh"


I highly doubt that, all of the mactopia software is coded in Visual Studio.. which as I said above isn't ported to MacOS yet. Doubt you'll see a MacOS version, but look forward to seeing a PPC compatible version.

Quote: "I believe that if TGC made a GL version of DBP, just change the libraries to use GL, that there would be a jump in buyers. GL is just such a better alternitive to DirectX, it's probably not quite as powerful quite yet, but it runs on any computer."


a) Not a snowballs chance in hell. Lee doesn't like OpenGL, not even slightly. He's gone on record quite a few time saying that there will never be an OpenGL variant of the DBP Engine.

If there is ever a version it won't be coded by the current team.

b) just makes no business sense. over 90% of the market uses Microsoft Windows and DirectX.. put simply, why would you want to pander to a minority when your already supporting a nitché market as is?

Quote: "So called eh? are you saying you don't believe them? hahahahahahahaha, i'll have you know, i know someone who is using MAC OSX on their AMD Athlon64 based computer, without a single problem."


Well now you've said your mate has it on his machine my god I must believe the rumours are true!... only just a small fact people seem to quickly forget.

Apple have made a deal with Intel. Now for those who don't understand Intel's philosophy and business tactics against AMD the past decade, I'd suggest you visit AMD.com

As far as Mac OSX86 goes, I'll wager that it won't in-fact run on x86 processors at all; but actually ONLY run on IA32 processors. While you can claim your mate has MacOSX running on his computer, blah blah blah... I have a skin for KDE 3.4 as well as using PearPC can 'almost' perfectly emulate the Apple MacOSX experience. And with less effort than it takes to emulate Windows oddly enough.

So as I said, until I see this so-called leak version running and use it myself. I'm sticking with the whole "it's bullcrap" theory.

I don't believe for one second that Intel would sign a deal with Apple that would allow AMD any access to the x86 variant of MacOSX. It's bound to require things like SSE2, Hyper-Threading, and EMT64 by default or something. It's how Intel work, it's how they've always worked. Rather than Microsoft who buy up competition, Intel just blackmale and 'make deals' to make sure that AMD and other manufacturers aren't allowed access.

This is one of the major factors over the falling out between IBM and Intel, when Intel forced IBM's Cyrix range from the business market.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:14
you know what I've always wondered...why whenever you say anything, when Raven says something back, you feel a negative tone...


I believe the rumours two reasons, me bro is a mac geek, and well knows a lot of the 'future news', maybes and possibilities, and the other, well if some one has got it running on and AMD 64, logic says its possible, and well if me bro says mac has possible plans, then I believe him, also, I think the only thing that would stop them would be money, yes they'd get money from making the OS PC compatible, but would lose money because people would make their Mac switch by buying the software instead of Hardware

indi
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:19
one hardware platform for vista and OSx86 as long as copyright hardware protection is involved then apples opening the 'download a movie' doorway without much piracy issues very soon.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:33
You know raven, for all the time you spend 'researching' everything, you should spend a little bit more time with this mac thing... AS you said in another thread you have "a degree in Windows and MacOS" so you should know a little more than me about some things, but here i go correcting you right now...

Quote: "So as I said, until I see this so-called leak version running and use it myself. I'm sticking with the whole "it's bullcrap" theory."

ok, for starters, lets take a jump over to Tech-Recipes.com and follow those step-by-step directions, if you want some help with it or need a few files, i'll gladly help you out if you email me: niwrad@gmail.com or you can contact me via MSN Messenger: joelthebod@hotmail.com

now with that said, i'm going to bash you a little...

Quote: "I don't believe for one second that Intel would sign a deal with Apple that would allow AMD any access to the x86 variant of MacOSX. It's bound to require things like SSE2,"

yes, it does require SSE2, which (if you didnt now, you should jump on over to AMD.com) the newer Athlon64 processors support.
APPLE didnt allow AMD computers the access to the x86 variant of MacOSX, people who broke the freaking hardware check allowed it.

Quote: "Intel just blackmale and 'make deals' to make sure that AMD and other manufacturers aren't allowed access."

are you biased against Black Males? they have psychiatric help for that.

Anyway, i could go on and on if I wanted, but I'm not in the mood right now to write a whole blog about how incredibly dumb you can be sometimes Raven, but I suggest that you follow that "tech-recipe" and then come back and say how ignorant and stupid you are... for someone who wonders why no one respects him, you are not a very trusting person, you sit there and act like I will make up bull crap to make myself feel like I have a social chance at life, when in fact, it's you who makes up all the crap all the time. rather than making false claims on things (like, how you cant run MACOSX on a athlon based pc) why not research some things and TRY THEM?
but then, if you did that, you would be proven wrong...


Eat some of dat cheese
Raven
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:34
No. I'm not saying the Macintosh moving to Intel (MacOSX86) isn't going to happen. That's common knowledge. Something most of us thought was a joke 6-8months bac when it was announced given that rumour has been around for almost a decade.

I simply believe that the whole stuff about the leaked MacOSX86 is bullcrap. Especially given I've NEVER heard of a single person actually running it on an Intel Processor. It's always an x86, and a 64-bit Athlon at that!

Given the deal is for Intel to provide the processor for the next Macintosh Range.. I'm firmly under the belief that this new MacOSX86 is very likely to run on Intel processors only.

In-fact I'd go as far to say that I'll wager that it's not going to run on pure Pentium 4, but some hybrid processor. That is the most likely scenario. A special Dual Core version of the Pentium D, with one core being IA32 and the other being PPC32.

That is by far one of the most likely solutions to allow them to provide a painless transition while still meaning the Mac is still exclusive hardware.

Remember the move isn't because Apple feel the x86 market is bigger, but because IBM haven't been able to deliver the quatity and quality of chips that Apple wanted.

JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:38
Quote: "I'm firmly under the belief that this new MacOSX86 is very likely to run on Intel processors only."

I've already told you YOU CAN! freak, if you want to sit there and make these claims, why not prove me wrong? because you CANT, now read my post again and do as i suggest and follow that page, if you need files or anything, i'll point you in the right direction with the contact information provided


Eat some of dat cheese
Raven
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:41
Quote: "ok, for starters, lets take a jump over to Tech-Recipes.com and follow those step-by-step directions, if you want some help with it or need a few files, i'll gladly help you out if you email me: niwrad@gmail.com or you can contact me via MSN Messenger: joelthebod@hotmail.com"


Facinating... I've never seen such an untrustworthy article full of crap since I was last on the Inquirer.

Quote: "yes, it does require SSE2, which (if you didnt now, you should jump on over to AMD.com) the newer Athlon64 processors support."


It only supports the registers, not the operations added. While this is fine for something like DirectX where it'll fall-back, this isn't the same when your trying to access it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:45
Quote: "a degree in Windows and MacOS"


Me? Why would I say such lies, I have no degree in anything, I only got 12 and a 1/2 GCSEs and working on A-levels now, I'm not smart enough to have a degree, plus, why in computers? Thats boring, I'd prolly get a degree in Psychology or English


As for these arguements, I can't be arsed, especially when technical language is involved ,

JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 02:45 Edited at: 19th Sep 2005 02:47
oh my crap, do you READ or LISTEN or THINK??
my crap, you are just blowing this to the side thinking that it will prove you right... so i'm just going to take a new tatic:

IF ANYONE WANTS TO PROVE RAVEN WRONG FOLLOW THOSE DIRECTIONS I PROVIDED FOR HIM

there, now raven, shutup and stop thinking with your butt.

as i said before, PROVE ME FREAKING WRONG! and then you'll have a leg to stand on. right now, you are just full of crap

Quote: "Facinating... I've never seen such an untrustworthy article full of crap since I was last on the Inquirer."

no, read MY post, not yours


Quote: "Me? Why would I say such lies"

not you, Raven,


Eat some of dat cheese
Eric T
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 08:01 Edited at: 19th Sep 2005 08:01
We had the macos x86 variant running on a compaq Presario, it was 2.4ghz p4, 512mb crap ram, intergrated video etc. We got the disk image off of torrent of course. But then the HD died later that night (unrelated afaik, there was a power surge that went through all of tooele, whacked out alot of things not on a protecter, including 2 of my computers and this computer monitor is now screwed)... so I can't really prove that we had it working.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 17:42
It works, I actually had it installed on my old Side Mounted 600mhz amd processor based computer, but it wouldnt get past bootup because the CPU is crap and can't handle anything...that was about as much as I was expecting from it tho :p
but like I said before, it CAN be done and I know someone who has.


Eat some of dat cheese
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 19:15
Quote: "not you, raven"


stupid me.

I'm using a Mac now woot!!! I forgot how superior to PC they really are...I forgot all the shortcuts from last time I went to play guitar when, waiting for it to, load, all I had to do was pick up the guitar and it was done

Jimmy
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 20:35
Macs are gay. I can't believe all this wasted energy over gay Macs.

DBAlex
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 21:30
Macs are awesome.

I would have one over PC, If I could afford, maybe with Intel CPU's Macs will be cheaper?




AMD 64 3000 + 512mb RAM + 80GB HD + Radeon 9600se 128mb
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JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 22:21
Quote: " maybe with Intel CPU's Macs will be cheaper?"

haha, dont count on it


Eat some of dat cheese
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:17
macs r getting cheaper though

@Jimmy, are you homophobic? Macs have no gender, so them having sexual fantasies is like two flowers (but flowers are both genders not none) so if macs were all guys and loved each other, doesn't mean they aren't less awesome

JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:21
wow, that didnt make much sense...

But MACs are female and normal PCs are male

it's true...


YARR!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:22
really, so guys who loves PC's are gay, just as well I love macs then

JoelJ
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:24
well then, you should be loving a peice of machinery...
that's just gross...

would you love a female DOG just because it's FEMALE?!"_+_#$

sick man


YARR!
Jimmy
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:26
Yeah, I'd rather be gay than Machinasexual.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:35
I like the mac cos she is sexy with lovely curves on her behind....and is well built and fast, but I'd prefer real women....I mean, how do you have sex with a machine? how do you kiss it? look on the brightside when you're married your computer won't nag you, unless you're like plankton on Spongebob Squarepants

Jimmy
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Posted: 19th Sep 2005 23:55 Edited at: 19th Sep 2005 23:56
Love isn't just about sex you know. There are contracts and... roasted pigs... involved.

So, I think it could work. Good luck to you and the Mrs.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 00:01
Love ISN'T just about sex? Does it rain upside down where you live j/k

I know....lets stop this computer love thing, some people might get jelous

indi
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 03:15
here is another article about installing pir8 OSX86 on any PC

http://www.uneasysilence.com/os-x-proven-hacked-and-running-on-an-ordinary-pc/

also apparantly spped reports are a little faster with some higher end systems using intel hardware but this isnt proved as gospell yet.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
JoelJ
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 03:44
nope, indi, it's not true, raven said so


YARR!
indi
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 04:16
ive read ravens posts now for many years, even tho his information can be incorrect at times, hes passionate enough to try, yes his abbrupt jabs at people annoy me from a moderation point of view and his lack of ability to say yes i was wrong.
maybe the guy has issues at home or has some form of communication breakdown with other people by spending too much time at the computer.
I can only speculate the issues that make his posts incorrect at times and jaded towards peoples opinions.
maybe he doesnt have any issues like this and just is frustrated about something else.
regardless its no place to vent your anger at anyone so that component of his pysche is not wlecome here.
raven has told many porky pies in his lifetime on these boards from saying he worked at blizzard etc.. etc.. I just read the posts as a side anicdote to the message in question after all these years.

i dunno, maybe that is too close to home or too close to the problems at hand.
i dont care its not for me to decide what raven does or types, thats his bag.
i cant allow insults to other users tho.

for some reason raven is in denial about the x86 port and this forum has no place for insults regarding the stated obvious numerous times.

healthy debate about what it will mean or prevail into is another matter.

this forum recently has picked up a few people who should spend more time coding
then commenting on everything as fast as possible with silly one liner comments.
i might have to snap on the latex noob slapping glove if it gets out of control

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JoelJ
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 05:15
yay indi!
i lubu


YARR!
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 11:51
Hopefully once Mac starts using Intel compatiable chips, it'll get much cheaper...

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JoelJ
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Posted: 20th Sep 2005 21:01
Quote: "Hopefully once Mac starts using Intel compatiable chips, it'll get much cheaper..."

I dont think it'll make THAT much of a difference...


YARR!
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 04:48
Would be nice though

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Raven
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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 05:06
Quote: "for some reason raven is in denial about the x86 port"


bull****, when will you people get it through your tiny minds i've not said there is no MacOS X86 designed to run on Intel Processors.

What I am saying is it's BS that the OS set to be released on Q3 Apple Macintosh machines is not only a leaked beta, but also been 'hacked' to run on any x86-based machine. What's more intolerable is the fact that in order for it to work you would have to be able to run it on a machine it's already compatible with .. making the hack pointless.

The whole damn thread is retarded from the start.

Steve Jobs made an announcement about Apple's next Macintosh would be supplied by Intel. Further annoucenments are that these new Pentium will be compatible Windows (x86) processors.
It's also been said that any software from MacOSX will run on MacOS X86.

(which if people BOTHERED TO ACTUALLY USE THIER EYES TO READ FOR ONCE would've seen I've already noted about)

There is however ZERO information on if MacOS X86 will be compatible with regular Intel Processors. Further to the point there is no infomation in regards to if MacOS X86 will be available as a replacement to Windows. Again in one of the annoucements Steve Jobs mentioned that they are NOT trying to complete with Microsoft and Windows.

To me this suggests there is likely to be something specialised involved. MORE SO because of Intels history with blocking competition with under-handed tactics.

But I suppose actually reading up on the information from Apple themselves rather than from these websites claiming they not only have leaked versions but defying all logic have also 'cracked' it to work on them.

I mean sweet jesus these people might as well be sitting there saying they've hacked it so that the PPC version runs on Athlon64. Oh and have you ever noticed it's ONLY Athlon people ever posting up this crap? Yeah, how many of the Pentium users are actually using MacOSX on thier Windows machine?!

Show of hands probably would give the real story there. It's also funnoy how the 3 torrents I've so-far found of MacOS X86 happen to have been Linux 2.6.9 Kernels running Linux compiled versions of the OPEN SOURCE software on Apple.com.

I mean FGS they weren't even sensible enough to freaking use BSD you've got to wonder about the damn intelligence.

As I said.. you put a working copy of this in-front of me and I'll believe you have it running.

Jimmy
21
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Joined: 20th Aug 2003
Location: Back in the USA
Posted: 21st Sep 2005 06:50
You're an idiot. How about that.

JoelJ
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Sep 2003
Location: UTAH
Posted: 21st Sep 2005 07:37 Edited at: 21st Sep 2005 07:38
HOLY language batman, there are children present!

Quote: "As I said.. you put a working copy of this in-front of me and I'll believe you have it running."

Raven, EMAIL ME OR CONTACT ME VIA MSN


Quote: "Steve Jobs made an announcement about Apple's next Macintosh would be supplied by Intel"

made an announcement and then released the kit for DEVELOPERS to get a head start on. Thus resulting in a LEAK.
Quote: "But I suppose actually reading up on the information from Apple themselves rather than from these websites claiming they not only have leaked versions but defying all logic have also 'cracked' it to work on them."

So Mr. I-read-Everything-and-still-dont-know-what-i'm-talking-about, what Apple did to block people from using this version on any old computer, they had the SOFTWARE check for a specific CHIP that ONLY Apple computers have and can support, that way, they dont have to WORRY about it leaking, because the only mac owners can boot it, and they cant install an X86 OS on their PPC, so no problem.
What these "Athlon" users have done is take the OS and CRACK it so it no longer checks for this peice of hardware, if you READ MORE, they also say that you will have problems with boot time and lag and stuff, that's because the computer is still searching for it in other bits of the program, which you can disable somehow, I cant remember.

Anyway, with that said, one with the least bit of LOGIC will tell you that it is POSSIBLE to put this "non-existant" OS on your anyday pc.
(if your CPU supports everything MAC uses, some chips wont let you use some features, but the NEWER Athlon Chips WILL),

now, Raven, if you want to prove me wrong, just contact me on MSN sometime, I'm on almost all day after 1pm US Mountain time. And let go of your freaking ego and give IN! pushing and pushing BULL CRAP like you are right now, isnt going to help you.

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