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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / self changing code

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2122
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 01:37
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Is there a way to make your code edit itself while it's running?
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kkzgreen
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 02:09
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What do you mean edit itself? Do you mean check if something is true and then do something else than hard codded? If so than I think you would need to have a scripting system.
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 02:44
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It probably seems like a cool idea, but it is impossible and never will be possible. That would be extremely weird, slow, and problematic.

Your code can perform different actions based on whatever conditions you want. Or, like kkzgreen said, a scripting system might do what you want.

What are you trying to do anyway?

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Ric
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 03:04
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You could get the program to produce new code - but you'd need to manually paste that code into the IDE and compile it yourself before you could get it to execute. Unless you were really clever, and could figure out how to make your program do that for you! What you can do, though, is get the program to save data to a file - and then use the data in the file to affect how the program behaves. Kind of similar to what you're asking isn't it?

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2122
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 03:18
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Cash Curtis: It's possible, i've read about it in c and c++ I just didn't know if it was possible with dbp.

Ric:
Thanks for the sugestion.

everyone:
I just wanted to know if it was possible with dbp I don't really intend to do anything with self changing code for a while I'm not really that advanced yet.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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The admiral
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 04:43
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You could just get the programme to edit some script files that will appear like its changing its programme

The admiral
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re faze
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 04:51
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self modifying code like in asm? its not advisable, because it will be picked up 123 by any decent virus scanner and i think windows prevents this anyways for security or some crap like that.

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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Mattman
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 04:51 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 04:52
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Try this

Have your program write the new code in a .dba, then try execute file for the db compiler with the new dba. I know this would work with DBC but I don't know about DBP.
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Me!
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 11:56
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of course that would be an illegal program to distribute since you are reselling the DB compiler, just thought I would mention that before someone got themselves into trouble with some guy with a blue flashing light on top of their head knocking on the door.



why do they say Aliens are gonna be friendly?, surely the agressive ones wipe out the peaceloving ones, so all you have left out there are crazed flesh eating interstellar monsters.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 12:00
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Sounds like someone is trying to make true AI.

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Torrey
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 12:01
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This is not really possible with the DBPro commands. Mainly this is done in asm and is very easy (if you know asm). It's not illegal, and AV's do not toss up alarms if you are successful at your attempt.

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Me!
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 12:15
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@Torrey:-but to do it in the way mentioned, by using the DB compiler, IS illegal since to distribute the working program you would have to distribute the DB compiler, according to you I can make a new IDE for DB, rename it LightBasic and sell it for £5 a copy legaly along with a copy of the DB compiler, er , actualy I can`t

if you wrote an assembler in DB and wrote the asm values to a memblock, you could save the memblock with the .exe extension and then call it from DB, but it would only realy be possible for simple DOS type apps, if you could make that use 3D then you are smart enough to code directly in ASM , so you don`t need DB



why do they say Aliens are gonna be friendly?, surely the agressive ones wipe out the peaceloving ones, so all you have left out there are crazed flesh eating interstellar monsters.
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Torrey
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 12:30 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 12:36
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Quote: "All games created with DarkBASIC Professional are License and Royalty free.
All games can be distributed as a stand alone executable."


DarkBASIC Pro creates stand alone .exe's, meaning there is no need for an intepreter. You might be confused in thinking that DarkBASIC Pro is like QBasic? DBPro compiles your source code into machine code and inserts it into a kind of wrapper file. Changing the exe file that your compiler creates is legal.

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Me!
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 12:59
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but I can`t do

print "welcome to the cubelang compiler"
open to write 1,"cubelang.dba"
input "name? ",nam$
write string 1,"make object cube 1,1"
write string 1,"do"
write string 1,"print "+chr$(34)+nam$+" by cube compiler"+chr$(34)
write string 1,"turn object left 1,1"
write string 1,"loop"
close file 1
execute file "DBPCompiler.exe","cubelang.dba","C:\Progra.....Compiler\"

(or whatever parameters you pass to the DB compiler)

since that would require distributing the DBPro compiler along with the exe to make it work, THAT is not in your licence since while it is created with the compiler it requires you distribute the compiler with it, ie you are redistributing DBPro.



why do they say Aliens are gonna be friendly?, surely the agressive ones wipe out the peaceloving ones, so all you have left out there are crazed flesh eating interstellar monsters.
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Torrey
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 13:14 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 13:14
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Check this one out it's more fun (press the number 2 to exit):



I created that file a long time ago for a tiny file contest, the contest was to create a graphic output with the smallest file size. Orignal source was done in assembler.

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Me!
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 13:28 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 13:31
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thats quite good (forgive me but I let it make the file and then scanned it with my AV and an hex editor and ran it manualy afterwards...you can`t be too carefull, you can do a lot with a few lines of machine code), people forget what what was coded in the 8 bit days with 1/2k of memory and black and white displays, I remember doing the mandelbrot set on an Acorn Electron in asm and it took half a day to do the initial set [B], and yes I sat and watched it do most of it <ubergeek> .



why do they say Aliens are gonna be friendly?, surely the agressive ones wipe out the peaceloving ones, so all you have left out there are crazed flesh eating interstellar monsters.
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 16:22
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Quote: "Sounds like someone is trying to make true AI."


Lost in Thought - what in the world are you talking about? That makes no sense at all.

Let's say DBP could change its code. So you make some crazy AI that changes its code. The changes you make would have to be pre-programmed. Wouldn't it be easier to have IF-Then blocks that would execute extra code, rather than rewriting the Executable?

2122- And my original question remains... why do it in the first place? I'm sure whatever reason you give me there is a more stable, easier way to do it with good programming logic. I can't think of a single situation in which I'd do it. Like I said, I could do whatever I wanted with conditional boolean statements. After all, my program would have to meet conditions to rewrite the code, and it could only write pre-programmed code.
Quote: "I don't really intend to do anything with self changing code for a while I'm not really that advanced yet."


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Ric
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 20:50 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 20:52
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Quote: "Lost in Thought - what in the world are you talking about? That makes no sense at all."


Actually it does. If your AI program was written from preprogrammed code, it would never have the ability to grow beyond its programming. True AI would be a program that rewrites it's own 'child' program, better than its own program. Impossible? Not in theory. In fact given enough time, it's very simple. The 'Mother program' is the code you, the human programmer, write. All it does is create random code from a set of commands, adds it to the existing preprogrammed code, compiles it and executes it. The overwhelming majority of these attempts to write executable code will fail, but by the laws of probability, given enough time, one of these attempts will produce a piece of code which is better than the original, and will become the new mother program. This program will then eventually write something better. And so on. It's basic evolution. The only requirements are a self reproducing program - hence the need for the ability to self compile and, as I've said already, time. Lots of it. Like several billion years, probably.

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Nul error
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:00
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You basicly describe what life is ric.

I belive that AI is just a fake program logic to seem like intelligence but can't adapt or has limited adaptiblity, beyond that its just intelligence in a non organic body. So "True AI" would never exist
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:12 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 22:13
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Self changing code is a bad idea, it's not really regarded as a good idea general, even down at machine code level (where it is sometimes possible). Everything can be done without changing code, it it just not nessecary and would get too confusing very fast.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:17 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 22:22
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Quote: "I belive that AI is just a fake program logic to seem like intelligence but can't adapt "

There's no such thing as fake logic.
And neural networks are good at adapting. As for limited adaptability, you could say the same thing about the human mind but the limit is far greater due to much better hardware.
Ric's idea is nice, using a genetic algorythm to peice together a code generator. I'll want to play around with that later on

As for modifying DBP code... well, there's a way. Basicly what torrey did, but rather than record the code into a COM file, you call it in memory (which DBP doesn't allow, but using a plugin or the windows API it's easy). You could make a function in a plugin for getting the pointers to each command (Position Object, for example), add 0xE8 to a memblock and then paste the pointer after it. That would instantly crash but if you feel like it's worth the trouble, it's possible to get it to work. Of course, you'll have to add opcodes for math, push/pop, floats (arg!), and flow control. Hours and hours of fun!!

[edit]
Quote: "Self changing code is a bad idea, it's not really regarded as a good idea general, even down at machine code level (where it is sometimes possible). Everything can be done without changing code, it it just not nessecary and would get too confusing very fast."

The fact that it gets too confusing fast is a good thing. This means that the program is capable of things you aren't. A good example of this was the self-constructing neural network some mad doctor was working on. It was never his intention to understand the code after self-modification. It is only important that you understand the original code.
As for "it's not really regarded as a good idea in general": I agree its a tabu in the programing world, but it's a technique that has its uses.

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Ric
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:20 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 22:30
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@ Nul error:

I understand what you mean, although to say 'True AI' can never exist is just an argument about the meanings of words - terms like AI, true AI, and intelligence are clearly open to interpretation.

All I was demonstrating was that there is a meaningful link between self compiling code and computer intelligence, as Lost in Thought was implying.

Quote: "Ric's idea is nice, using a genetic algorythm to peice together a code generator. I'll want to play around with that later on"


Be careful though. If you don't have the power off switch within easy reach, you never know when the computer will become self aware, hack into some military network and launch a nuclear attack on the human race. No, seriously, it could happen - I know, because I saw it in a film once. It was nasty. It had two even nastier sequels. And Arnie looked really old in the last one.

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RiiDii
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:33 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 22:34
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Doesn't the word "Artificial" sort of imply (if not directly mean) not real? Fake? Not the original? Like Ric said, it's a lot of word games at that point; but "True AI"? Sure. Why not? It really is "artificial."

@2122: For DBPro (and maybe for any language), your best bet is probably create your own scripting language that runs using DBPro. Then have the scripting language able to rewrite itself, run the newest compilation, and (probably the toughest part) determine if the new script code is more effective than the "parent" code.

For a faster evolution code, you may want two "parents" that work on different sections of, let's say, 20 children codes. Then, when detecting the effectiveness of the children, you also compare the children to each other, not just to the parent(s). Then you take the two (up to maybe four) "best" codes and have them write 20 children. Wash, Rinse, and Repeat.

If you can have the code test it's child(ren)'s effectiveness, then the evolution will occur much quicker than if you (or someone else) has to test the effectiveness of the code.


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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:40
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@RiiDii: The 2122 guy never said he was trying to do self writing AI. That was Lost in Thought. He's totally side-tracked the thread

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RiiDii
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:48
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Quote: "@RiiDii: The 2122 guy never said he was trying to do self writing AI. That was Lost in Thought. He's totally side-tracked the thread."


Technically true, but I agree with LiT, I am assuming that's the reason to write a self writing code. Personally, I can't think of very many other reasons. Just about every other reason falls into the "Everything can be done without changing code, it is just not nessecary and would get too confusing very fast" category, except a genetic algorythm.


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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 22:52
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Yeah, it has it's uses, but I'm not sure it has it's place in general code . It'd be like using gotos all the time, except times 100. You kind of do need to understand the code when you get a bug caused by the code editing.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 23:17
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I wasn't trying to side track the thread. Just trying to get a feel for exactly what he/she' trying to actually do. The only reason I can think of for needing the code to change itself is True AI. For anything else as stated, you can just use a file/array/memblock with parameters and have the code change that.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 23:19
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sheesh, don't take the acusation so seriously. See the in my last post?

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 23:24
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Continuing with the genetic-style code evolution, RiiDii is right that you should probably choose more than just the top two 'parents' as often you'll find that a 'plateau' is reached in effectiveness of your code-children.

By this, I mean that if each code-child can change only a little bit from the parent each generation, it's a bit like having shortsightedness when climbing a mountain.
Maybe you'll find the highest point you can see, but because you can't see very far, you don't realise that just outside of your vision is a higher point.

Inheretance and mutation are usually used in combination - you start with a large enough pool of programs, 'breed' the most effective groups together, inhereting some of the code from each parent, and add a little bit of random mutation into the mix too.

If you only use mutation, there's no way to tell if the child will be anything like the parent.
If you only use inheretance, then you'll quickly run out of improvements from your 'genetic' pool.

A little of both, is often used
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 23:30 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 23:32
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I don't take anything anyone says about me seriously. I just like to show my reasons/ way of thinking when others may question things I do.

[edit] Still it would be easier to help if 2122 would let us have a bit more info as to which end result is desired.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 23:40
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but I wasn't seriously questioning anything.
Would be interesting to see Genetic evolution in AI using a First Person Shooter. Best AI kills dumb AI and at the end of the year, nobody can beat whatever's left.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:04
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A problem with FPS AI is that you can easily make it too good. It never needs to miss, it never needs to slow down, it can instantly get a bead on your location on sight (or even sound).

The tricky part is making it so that the AI is good enough to challenge - good like a human, not 'cheatingly-good' like a computer
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David T
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:14
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Self changing code?

Entirely possible, using my Lua plugin.

Available very soon from a Game Creator near you.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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Torrey
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:24
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Quote: "Self changing code?

Entirely possible, using my Lua plugin.

Available very soon from a Game Creator near you."


Variables don't count. DarkScript baby!

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:28
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Lost in thought:
Quote: "Just trying to get a feel for exactly what he/she' trying to actually do"

Just so everyone knows, I'm a boy. I read alot about ai it's a sort of hobby of mine. I never actually made anything with ai, other than the things in my fps that follow you around and shoot at you. I was thinking of true ai when I posted this.

everyone:
I don't really have any goal with this, although when I get better I might try the scripting idea, or the genetic thing.
My position in the true ai debate would be that it's exactly what it says artificial, we can make it be like us, like they did with the cog expirement, but we can't make it truly us. If that makes any sense. What is ASM? Do I need a compiler for it?
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Torrey
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:33 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 00:35
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Quote: "What is ASM? Do I need a compiler for it? "

ASM stands for assembler. There are hundreds of compilers out there, and I use FlatAssembler currently.


--

Scripting is definately the way to go for lots of ai alternatives these days.

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:37
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what is an x86 or x86-64 system?
And do you need anything to script?
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Torrey
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 00:42
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Assembler is unrelated to this scripting talk. And most likely you're running on a x86 system.

Here's something you won't see often, but I'll list 2 script alternatives (I'm listing the competition too!):

DarkScript Plugin - C-Style structure, was designed for use in games, makes your games completely moddable, lots of extra commands that'll suit your needs.

Lua Plugin - Does almost the same thing as mine, designed by David T, and uses a basic style structure.

Both haven't been released yet, but they will be very soon!

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:09
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I got the compiler, but what is ELF format, and how do I run the compiler?
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David T
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:27
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Quote: "Variables don't count. DarkScript baby! "


Who said anything about variables?

As long as its in a string, it can be executed. I'm not stupid

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:49
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I looked at both scripters, and I don't know wich one to use. I guess I'll have to try them both.
Do you guys have an estimated release date for your scripters?
Will they be free?
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TKF15H
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:50
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@2122: If you want to try a scripting engine that actually exists, check my sig.

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:51 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 01:55
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edit: sorry to double post, I didn't see that a new page started. I'll try war basic. Just out of curiosity, what part of ai are scripters for?
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TKF15H
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:55 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 01:56
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but you didn't double post. o_O
[edit] oh wait, never mind...

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 01:57
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O well, I thought I did. Any who, I'm downloading war basic scripter. What part of ai do you use a scripter for anyway?
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 03:04
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Ric, you're insane.
Quote: "All it does is create random code from a set of commands, adds it to the existing preprogrammed code, compiles it and executes it."

Was that on Battlestar Galactica?
"Oh, Captain Whitey, the computer is self-replicating code. I estimate that within 28 minutes it will achieve self-awareness..."
"Well Commander, it looks like we'll just have to outsmart it..."
Quote: "Like several billion years, probably."

Are you serious?
Random code is not AI. It's random code. It would never work. And it's not evolution. You're just agreeing with something that sounds cool to you.

If I were going to build something that required changing conditions, I would build a database file that controlled the execution of the program. It would read and write to it. Simple. Inserting random SYNC and EXITFUNCTION commands in a child program that would crash and 3000 tries lock down my computer wouldn't really do the same thing for me.

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2122
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 03:42 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 05:26
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Ric:
Look up the COG project. "He" is a good example of the kind of artificial intelligence we are talking about.
http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/humanoid-robotics-group/cog/cog.html

TKF15H:
War Basic was just a dll. Where do I put it, and how do I use it?
Just so you know, all the links on the post about warbasic don't work.
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TKF15H
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 05:54
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you put it in your Darkbasicpro\compiler\plugins directory. That will add a bunch of commands in DBP for you to use scripts.
Oh, and be carefull trying to run random code. AI doesn't really work that way. You are trying to get an Einstein by breeding retards with a 99.9999999% chance of generating more retards.

WarBasic Scripting engine for DarkBasicPro
DC emulator code size: 14.3MB, 553,214 lines
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 07:10 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 07:13
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Now, don't misunderstand me,I do understand the concept you all are talking about. I'm just saying it sucks. I've got a project in queue that allows you to reprogram enemy robots with your own scripts. In essence, create your own AI. Now, it may look like I'm "Adding Code", but I'm really not. I'm just interpreting a scripted language. It's the equivilant of making QbasicReturns with DBP. Except much cooler. And with Robo Babes.

Making a program with random code. Seriously. That has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Someday, the random code will result in RE4. Let's get a team together!" No it won't. Try it out. You could totally do that in DB. Have a program that generates random .DBA files, compiles them, then calls them as an executable. Try it, I dare you.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 11:28
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We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
- Robert Wilensky

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