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Geek Culture / Just bought the Xbox 360 DVD, surprisingly underwhelmed :(

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 19:37
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This is not meant to be a flamebait , or an arguement of which next gen console will be better - that would be stupid and pointless being they aren't out yet and theres no real, finished games to compare - and most videos are interspersed with pre rendered crud which then goes to far inferior looking in game footage. Only the technically un-informed will be fooled, especially after Sonys lies and hyperbole about the PS2 before its launch, and we all remember the launch line-up for that console, and how long it took before we got actual AAA quality games.

Anyway!

It was my birthday yesterday and my inlaws kindly gave me a whsmith gift card. I was in town today and saw the first issue of the official xbox 360 magazine with a dvd full of game trailers and in-game footage. I thought I'd buy it for 2 reasons: 1) the first issue of a magazine is always worth money in the future, and 2) I can't be bothered to download every trailer just to satisfy my curiosity

So I put it in, and first it forces you to watch that bald headed guy with the earing and the annoying accent explaining why the xbox 360 is so cool. After a while I started really getting into it. He was talking about games having "separate leaves on trees, blades of grass and separate hair and fur on characters" (or words to that effect)

I thought "oooh that sounds good - really high poly models and levels with all the extra new shader effects and hi-def graphics they'll look so real!"

*Ahem*

I just watched every trailer and ingame video. Nothing I saw was significantly more impressive than current games. I saw trees made of maybe 20 polys NOT separate leaves, plains with a grass texture NOT separate blade, animals in the background with NO fur whatsoever just poor texturing etc etc. Basically what we see in standard xbox games, but displayed in a high(er) res. with slightly improved physics and a few (admittedly) cool shaders added.

I wouldn't have minded so much, and some of the games do look cool and I will by a 360 sooner or later to play them, BUT I was hugely annoyed by the hype mongering bloke speaking quite clearly through his buttocks. Does he not watch his own demos and realise what he's saying isn't even slightly true???

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 20:35
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Quote: "and we all remember the launch line-up for that console, and how long it took before we got actual AAA quality games."


I remember the launch line-up fondly, having pre-ordered my PS2 months before (just as well, demand outstripped supply massively that year, but I got mine!). I'd say we had several AAA games right off the bat, including the sublime SSX, Timesplitters and even Tekken Tag was pretty awesome (even if I was crap at it). Some were a bit iffy, Ridge Racer for example wasn't that good, Puzzle Bobble was a passable conversion and Fantasia wasn't too bad, but a little weird (and not a patch on Rez).

I guess the difference was the leap on quality. From the N64 and Dreamcast to the PS2 *was* a significant ramp-up in my books. Visually it outperformed them all, and even today there are some games that just totally rock in the looks dept, although more thanks to uber talented designers than raw horsepower.

Umm, sorry to distract from your 360 vent I do know what you mean though, but I think the difference now is that next gen hardware is not all that much better than current (albeit top of the range) PC hardware, and the line between the "next leap" in visuals is getting more blurred each day. Some PS2 games even today blow me away with their visual clought - Burnout 4, God of War, etc. I have no interest in the 360 at all, it's not an anti-Microsoft thing, or an anti-J Allard (the bald dude to which you refer), it's just that I don't see the console as doing any special. But the PS3 will, because they won't base it around what is virtually off the shelf PC grade hardware, and that's why it'll have the edge.

My opinion, obviously Not that hardware is everything, some of the most addictive games I own are on my GBA.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:00
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"Some PS2 games even today blow me away with their visual clought - Burnout 4, God of War, etc."

I totaly agree. Those are amazing looking games. Put them in high res and they'd look as good as any of the 360 demos I just watched, and thats why I found the 360 demos so dissapointing...

Good points well made (as usual) Rich EXCEPT the Ps2 line up really was poor - Tekken Tag was a worse game to play than Tekken 3, and not graphically that impressive - especially compared to Dreamcast fighters like Soul Calibur & DOA2. I agree that SSX & Timesplitters were the best games at launch - but they didn't really become proper, well rounded games until the sequels in my opinion (yes I did own them, as budget releases later on), and again, graphically were less impressive than year old DC games.

I saw nothing to make me want a PS2 until GT3 - and didn't consider it a 'must have' until GTA3 joined it. Personal opinions I know, but the fact that all the launch games were less tehchnically impressive than games already available for other systems, and all had poor PAL conversions (especially ridge racer 5 PAL : yeuch!) can't really be denied.

I don't think I've read a multi format magazine that hasn't looked back and dissed the PS2 launch, especially over the ridiculous hype over the "emotion engine" ("the players are really 'feeling' sad! Look into their eyes - the specially built processor is actually making them sad!") the "real world physics" (a tech demo of water, that could never be used in-game as itwas using ALL system resources, and they knew that full well as they showed it!) and the fact they claimed it was banned from import to China as the country deemed the technology too advanced and therefore could be used as a dangerous weapon! It was silly. It was lying. And thats exactly what Mr Baldy American is doing with the 360, unfortunatley

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:18 Edited at: 10th Oct 2005 21:18
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Quote: "Put them in high res and they'd look as good as any of the 360 demos I just watched, and thats why I found the 360 demos so dissapointing..."


Yeah, but they've got to have *something* to show at launch, and more importantly they've got to beat Sony to market in order to grab as many sales as possible before the PS3 stomps all over them So I can understand why most current games don't look that hot, I think Allard is evangelising about what they WILL look like, very soon. Then again, he's just a salesman at the end of the day. Some of the games do look beautiful, I thought Kameo was very nicely designed, and I even liked the quite cartoony Perfect Dark Zero style

For me though there's no killer "must have" game. Let's face it, without Halo, the first Xbox would have been quite some disaster initially.

For me SSX was a gorgeous game because I didn't have a Dreamcast, only an N64, and the visuals in SSX were stunning compared to 1080 - and the trick boost and the course design were works of genius! Timesplitters too. I really liked Tekken Tag, although I'm not sure if I enjoyed the bloody gorgeous Namco CGI intro more than the game quite probably!

I'm no Sony fan-boy, I won't touch a PSP with a barge pole, and I'd probably buy a Revolution before a PS3, but there's something to be said for the games the Japanese produce, and it's something the 360 will have precious little of.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:20
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Quote: "grab as many sales as possible before the PS3 stomps all over them"


Like that could ever happen...

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Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:26
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Quote: "I just watched every trailer and ingame video. Nothing I saw was significantly more impressive than current games. I saw trees made of maybe 20 polys NOT separate leaves, plains with a grass texture NOT separate blade, animals in the background with NO fur whatsoever just poor texturing etc etc. Basically what we see in standard xbox games, but displayed in a high(er) res. with slightly improved physics and a few (admittedly) cool shaders added."


Isn't there a Kameo demo in there? Cause that by far shows off some of the power of the X-Box 360 and when you think about it, we had somewhere close to 300 goblins in that battle scene alone, with Depth of Field, AntiAliasing, all of those sepete leaves and grass blades razamataz, fur, etc.

Quite simply all of what the head honcho was talking about are show in Kameo.

I think the whole demo was extremely impressive to say the least. The true scale the guys got on that game is just epic in proportions.

You also should've seen PGR3 which while not ground-breaking had ridiculous polycounts along with using the new PRT Shading. Just looks breath-taking at 1280x720

Not sure if they showed Perfect Dark, as the demo for that was only just finished (the release graphics) for X05 a few days ago.
I'd strongly suggest you take a look at the Rare offerings.

Tomb Raider Legend 360 also looks pretty awesome graphically, compared to what's come before. IMO given what they could do with so little on-screen at once it's a disappointment. This said I've seen what the alpha hardware could be pushed to do and thatr's only a fraction of the speed the final machine can.

I think the problem is the Playstation 3. Currently what we've seen for that console so-far are unrealistic tech demos. And people are expecting a HUGE jump in technology, graphically.

What people forget is that Visually Shader 2.0 and Shader 3.0 are identical. I think this was evidenced quite well by FarCry... when they showed that really all Shader 3.0 adds (NVIDIA wise) is speed, optimisation and interlink shaders. So you can have everything using each other.

So users are expecting this *huge* jump visually. Which while yes it is a huge jump... unfortunately you can't expect games much better than Half-Life 2 or Doom 3 with maxxed out graphics. Atleast not to begin with.

We're all still learning the technology, especially as it was only finalised 6-7months ago really. So much of this year has been developers redeveloping from the alpha hardware to the final hardware. Checkout rareware.co.uk though, look at the X-Box and the X-Box 360 screenshots.

Even at the same resolution the updated graphics look far better.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:36
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Quote: "[quote]Quote: "grab as many sales as possible before the PS3 stomps all over them""


Like that could ever happen...[/quote]

Mmmm, we'll soon see. Xbox vs PS2 was no match (I'm talking sales, not hardware). Sony don't have a habit of loosing. They built the entire "next gen" market themselves 10 years ago with the PSX and they're not about to give up that domination. 360 has a lot to prove, and outside of America I don't think they'll make half as many waves as expected.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:50
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I'm pretty sure I won't be getting an xbox360. I'm not a die hard sony fan, my GB, Gbpocket, GBC, N64, GBA and GBA:sp prove that, but because there are so many great games for PS2 I haven't had chance to play yet.

If we're being honest, next year is going to be pretty boring for the PS2 release wise, the only title I can think of off the top of my head that I'm looking forward to is black.
Everyone else will either be developing for the xboc360 or concentrating on finishing off their PS3 lanuch titles.

This might sound bad but in truth it's far from that, I'd bet my left lung that most high street game shops will drop the prices of their PS2 games, which means I can grab as many as possible before I need to think about whether or not I want a PS3.

So, in my opinion, EVERYONE SHOULD BUY AN XBOX360, not because it'll be worth it, but because it'll mean even cheaper PS2 games for me.

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Peter H
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:00
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hehe, i'm an xbox fan (own one... though i hardly ever play it as i'm too busy programming )

but i think i'm going to buy the Revolution.

i was considering getting it just because i seem to remember hearing that it has free wireless multiplayer...

and i was totaly sold when the controller preview came out

even if it looks ugly i really like the idea of that motion sensor thing...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:12
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Quote: "So, in my opinion, EVERYONE SHOULD BUY AN XBOX360"


I second that. Rich seems to be sure ps3 will out sell the xbox360, and we need something drastic to happen so he is wrong, VERY wrong. So buy the 360!

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Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:18
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I don't know, while Sony is powerful... we've seen thier market shares dropping rapidly recently. What's more is that Sony are keeping with the same old formula.

This worked last generation, given most of thier gamers were fairly new. We're now 5years on though, and they're going on name alone.
It's not likely they can reach more market through advertising.

Now the Console Wars quite simply come back to the games.
I for one think that what is going to happen is Sony will loose, and loose big because of thier current advertising of the consoles.

They're going to die from over-hype. Microsoft are being quite sensible in the hype they're putting out. Nintendo are gaining it through thier secrecy. I firmly believe this console generation is going to be one of the closest yet.

Sony can go only so far on name alone. Forcing Quality titles to remain true to thier console will only hold up if they're don't have to make so many damn sequals. People *will* get bored of the same game.

Personally if I had to choose, I believe Nintendo will eventually come out ahead in Asia and X-Box in America. Europe will probably be torn.

I mean people are hyped now about the Playstation 3, but wait until we see REAL game screenshots, media and such. Sony have been happy to amp over the power of thier machine but all we've seen so far are very controversal pre-rendered / technology videos.

Typical Sony... lieing to the public from the start. Question is will the public stand for it again?

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soapyfish
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:32
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Quote: "Microsoft are being quite sensible in the hype they're putting out."


The bird man speaks the truth.

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Dot Merix
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:48
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Yeah Kangaroo.. You have to watch some of the Kameo video's to see what J. Allard was talking about.

The fur looks pretty incredible.

You could even take a look at some of the Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion trailers for the xbox 360 which also show some very impressive visuals. Not to mention, i hear the game will be 200+ hours. There's 50 hours of voice work in the game alone!

Gears of war seems to be quite good looking to, with some interesting concepts.. From what i hear, if you dont take yourself or make yourself an environment in which your surrounded in some light, you're going to be screwed.

Definately take a look at Elder Scrolls Oblivion though, the forests are apparently the most detailed ever created.



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MiR
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 23:49
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Quote: "Definately take a look at Elder Scrolls Oblivion though, the forests are apparently the most detailed ever created.
"

I wouldnt trust the game untill you´ve played it. Morrowind was full of graphical glitches and other such bugs. Oblivian looks to correct all the faults with the previous game but I can´t believe they´ve improved that much.

I have no idea why people seem to think that the ps3 will be able to produce better graphics than the 360. The cell procesor will be ridicusly hard to program for not to mention the 2 types of ram and and slow Blu-Ray drive. Only the last games will look any diferent from the 360 ones. If you can´t see why I´m so negative dig up an old magazine from the time just before the ps2. Do the "facts" sound familar? Did the demos have anything to do with the games? It´s the same trick. I fell for it once and I´m not falling for it again.

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:58
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Yup, my point exactly MiR.
Technology wise they actually have a slight advantage, but due to the cost nature of consoles... fact is that the X-Box 360 and Playstation 3 are going to be bloody close in terms of what they can realistically do.

I doubt the Revolution will be any different either. Probably on-par with the others.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:43
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I went to bed last night worrying this would turn into a flamewar for fanboys - I'm so glad it hasn't this is interesting reading

As for Kameo - yes its certainly the most interesting looking game. There was a demo of it on the DVD but nothing that showed huge ammounts of detail in the backgrounds such as trees grass etc. Infact I thought it looked more like a hyper colourful xbox game - but then again the demo was short, low res and jerky but I put that down to their capturing technicque or the original codec of the download before they converted it for the dvd). BUT I love the look of the game, and the way the character can transform into the other characters with different abilities, it looks really ingenuitive And yes I did notice fur on some of the main characters and it looked really cool I just thought from the way the guy was talking EVERY character, even incidentals such as background birds, rabbits etc would have feathers/furs not just be low poly splodges I'm sure RARE will come up trumps - Kameo looks really original and I'm really looking forward to the new Project Dark, it looks really stylish. Unfortunately they didn't put it on the dvd, but theres some cool screenshots and info in the magazine that got me drooling

"I think Allard is evangelising about what they WILL look like, very soon." - I hope so. From the ridiculously high spec of the 360 on paper what he was talking about should be perfectly possible.

I'm not going all out for graphics are more important than gameplay or anything stupid like that, but its little niggling deails like flat trees in games that can snap you out of total immersion in believing in a otherwise beautifully realised world.

"For me though there's no killer "must have" game. Let's face it, without Halo, the first Xbox would have been quite some disaster initially." - To be fair, yes I entirely agree But most people loved Halo and the xbox instantly became a viable console for casual gamers, just like goldeneye did for the n64. I remember Playstation owners buying a 64 JUST to play goldeneye, and PS2 owners buying an xbox just to play Halo - thats how much of an impact they had. Personally I never thought that either game was essentail - goood sure, I enjoyed them, but somehow they captured the publics imagination.

"For me SSX was a gorgeous game because I didn't have a Dreamcast, only an N64, and the visuals in SSX were stunning compared to 1080 - and the trick boost and the course design were works of genius! Timesplitters too."
Ah well that explains it then I remember when upgrading from N64 to Dreamcast I was amazed by the framerate improvements and the crispness of the new resolutions, and lack of fog and smoothing over everything! lol I loved the N64 - Mario64 is one of my favourite games of all time and I recently got out the system again specificaly to play it again (currently at 102 stars from scratch!) but it was sooo 'stodgy' in its framerates and antialiasing such a low res kinda made you feel like your glasses were steamed up!

"I really liked Tekken Tag, although I'm not sure if I enjoyed the bloody gorgeous Namco CGI intro more than the game quite probably!"
Yes Namcos CGI is always amzing! Which I always find makes the graphics in the actual games a slight anti climax... with their new games though I expect it'll be more about using the main graphics engine for cut-scenes etc which will even things out a bit

"You also should've seen PGR3 which while not ground-breaking had ridiculous polycounts along with using the new PRT Shading."
I REALLY wanted there to be a PGR3 demo on the DVD. But there wasn't From seeing what Bizzarre creations managed to push the DC and Xbox to do I'm sure they'll fulfill at least some of my expectations with it!

"I think the problem is the Playstation 3. Currently what we've seen for that console so-far are unrealistic tech demos. And people are expecting a HUGE jump in technology, graphically."
Yes I agree that all I've seen of the PS3 has been bull. Unrealistic bull. But thats what they did with PS2 as I pointed out above On paper theres no reason for the PS3 to be hugely more powerful than the 360... especially as I'm sure developers won't be able to properly harness even a quarter of their power efficiently until the second or third generation of games for the system...

Soapyfish - good point! If you haven't already - BUY ICO - its a true masterpiece

"I don't know, while Sony is powerful... we've seen thier market shares dropping rapidly recently. What's more is that Sony are keeping with the same old formula.... etc"
Yep. Sony is a huge force to be reconned with, and thei r marketting is undesputably better than Nintendo, Microsoft or any previous console manufacturer. However I would like to think that people won't buy a PS3 just because they own a PS2... I'm not saying don't buy one - I just hope the public don't buy it if it doesn't do anything different or innovative. Personally I'm fed up with most "Sony" sequels because they happen every year... A new Mario, Zelda or Sonic for example is worth waiting for as they don't happen too often and have time to perfect them properly.

"Gears of war seems to be quite good looking to, with some interesting concepts.." - haven't seen in moving but the screenshots look gorgeous - on the character models at least. Still using fake trees and folliage tho

MiR - Yup agree totally man - been there done that

"I doubt the Revolution will be any different either. Probably on-par with the others."
Well Nintendo has specified that technically it will be graphically under par with the 360 and ps3 - and it won't support Hi Def. They say thats becaseu they feel that both are pointless at this stage in technology and won't offer any real noticable improvements in games, especially for people who don't own a hi def TV - and it will boost the cost of ddevelopment significantly. On many levels I think this is a brave decision and at least in part I agree with them. The revolution is aimed more at different gaming ideas to attract new people to gaming and rejuvinate the interest of current gamers. I think this has to be applauded. I didn't like the look of the revolutions controller but about a week later they said that a controller similar to the gamecubes will also be available for more traditional style games. If they had siad that in the first place, I would have been hailing it as a genius idea, instead of being as scared off as I initially was

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Torrey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:58
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Just wait till Konami gets ahold of the new consoles (I'm sure they're already hard at work). Those guys create some awesome games!

What's wrong with Tekken Tag? I played that for 2 years straight with friends every week. Nothing better then battling it out with friends on different teams each week and swearing back and forth at each other.

One of my favorite lines:

(phil was beaten)
Phil: I don't know what happened?
Me: You got beat down that's what happened!


Check out my site!
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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:36 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 14:36
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I've got a copy of the pre-sale disc
For a Playstation 2 game, it does look nice, but I'd say the graphics are on-par with something like Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy.

The controls are horrible. I mean don't get me wrong the game plays alright, and the controls are fairly repsonsive. There is just something about them that makes me chringe whenever thinking about using them.

You'll have to image these at 1280x720 (because people here bitch when you stretch threads )






(alright not so impressive, most of the games graphics don't look that much better until seen moving unfortunately... but checkout the area name hehehe)

there was another game that really stood out and I thought "wow" from the X05 Video Kit. don't remember the name right now.
x-box site doesn't have a picture of legend right now, which is a shame

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:38 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 14:42
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"whats wrong with Tekken Tag" ?

1. As far as graphics go - it was given a severe beating by games that were a year older - Soul Calibur & DOA2 on the Dreamcast for example. Given that fact its weird that it was supposed to show how Ps2 was 'more powerful'

2. As far as Gameplay goes, Tekken 3 was a better game. Namco realised that the majority of gamers didn't like most of the new 'features' in Tekken Tag's fighting mechanism, hense why they removed them for Tekken 4, the true and worthy sequel to Tekken 3

3. If you want a good fighter on PS2 - the latest incarnation of Virtua Fighter 4 is the best by FAAAAAR. Or if you prefer Namco's style of control for fighters, Soul Calibur 2 is pretty kewl too Or even the ps2 conversion of DOA2 is a better fighter than TTT, once you learn the counter moves and don't get distracted by button bashing and bouncing breasts...

[edit] (Must have posted at the same time!)

Ooh Raven is that PG3? Looks pretty awesome thats a nice effect on the backgrounds... Only one of the screenshots is working tho... but MSR and PGR1&2 were all stunning so its hard to imagine pgr3 being anything but

"For a Playstation 2 game, it does look nice, but I'd say the graphics are on-par with something like Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy. The controls are horrible. I mean don't get me wrong the game plays alright, and the controls are fairly repsonsive. There is just something about them that makes me chringe whenever thinking about using them."
Which game are you talking about?

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:45 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 14:47
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only one... hmm they all work here, and are all from x-box/en-us so should be fine.

i'll have to capture a shot of kameo from the HD-1080 video, it looks awesome. with like hundreds of goblins up the side of the cliff, all of the effects.. and several of your capture "friends" that you an morph in to standing there waiting to attack them.

the game as a whole has an epic feel.. i mean that more in scale terms. the story is quite amusing

[edit]Gods of War, honestly think Playstation 2 fans hype over it too much. Had one person trying to convince me that graphically Resident Evil 4 had nothing on Gods of War. Almost laughable that comment, I mean GoW is good for the PS2, damn good in-fact, but being level with RE4. That's just a comment from someone who hasn't played it.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 15:15
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Ahh Gods of War. Great game and very nice graphics. I agree that Resi4 on GC is even better to look at. Maybe they meant the PS2 conversion of it, which doesn't look quite as nice...

No the screenshots still don't work for me even if I copy the link location, perhaps they have to be viewed from the original website but they are stored in your temp files?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 15:39 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 15:40
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For me it'll be more about the games than the hardware - there are some real gems on the PS2 that you would just NEVER see on the xbox because they're not "mass market" enough (pah). That is probably the single biggest issue I have with the 360, it'll be mass-market to the core, and I'd be amazed if we ever see any kind of gaming innovation on it.

That at least is something we can guarantee the Revolution will have. And due to the large number of Japanese companies supporting PS3, that also. MS know they'll never win against Sony in Japan, and I don't think they care about that too much either, they've built an American console through and through, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a McDonalds golden arch etched onto the motherboard somewhere.

The 360 is just a top-spec gaming PC in a relatively average case. And I don't need another PC. What I need is a gateway to play some of those awesome Japanese console games, because they make the *best* console games in the world. PS3/Revolution will provide that in spades.

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Zergei
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 15:55 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 15:55
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I haven't read all of it, not that i care much for xbox. HOwever one thing cought my eye...

Quote: "It was my birthday yesterday "


Happy Birthday!
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Van B
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:00
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I'll end up buying them all, games are my life - if I did'nt grab these consoles then it'd be like not bothering to buy a new car when the old one packs in. I mean, I'll get the 360 at christmas, then the PS3 once I've saved up for it. Killzone2 for the PS3 has already got me, I gotta get that, and the 360 is gonna be more of a living room media centre thing (which I've wanted the likes of for a while).

But really, we already know that the PS3 is gonna pwn the 360 - the one console I'm looking forward to is the rutt of the litter, the Revolution. I reckon it'll provide the most unique games, and I think it's all set for VR games too - that's like a chunk of progress in the one with the least graphical ooomph - frankly all the 2 big new consoles will offer is better graphics, I expect a helluva lot more for my money, and I'll get it with the cheapest new console - irony is never far away with this industry ehh!.

I usually hang around, and get consoles quite late in their lives, I did that with the GameCube and I wish I'd cottoned on quicker, it's an awesome little machine and I'm ashamed of myself for not trusting it at first. It reminds me a lot of the DreamCast, which rocked too, but Pikmin, Pikmin2, Harvest Moon, Viewtiful Joe, RE4 - I need these games, thank god for NGC and I hope the Revolution does well enough to keep Nintendo in contention so we get more games like them.

Rich,
Did you know that the Dreamcast has twice the video memory of the PS2?, it always amazes me how the PS2 is even capable of games like GTA:SA, where the heck does it keep the data! - IIRC it only has 4mb video memory to play with!.


Van-B

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:04
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Quote: "Did you know that the Dreamcast has twice the video memory of the PS2?"


Sony is cheap and saves money wherever they can. Dreamcast is also much more fun than the PS2.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:06 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 16:10
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"Happy Birthday" Hehe thank you!

Raven - the pics work now... maybe the website was temporarily down? Weird...

Rich - I couldn't aggree more on the Japanese Console game thing But as far as the 360 being a souped up PC - yeah but at 200 quid Its a darn site cheaper than upgrading my PC to play those kind of games

PS2 has indeed released some great quirky non mainstream games I'm not sure how long that will continue in the UK though... Sony seem as interested in the Mainstream than microsoft - their whole philosophy withthe original ps was to do just that - make games mainstream. As consoles the playstation series are more guilty than any other for having many rushed sequels to many overused farnchises. I would blame that on EA - but my faith in them was restored somewhat by them signing up Kamtari Damacy recently for Euro release

VanB - I agree with almost everything you just said

The dreamcast ROCKED - and should have kiled the ps2. Lets just get that out the way That said there are many great ps2 games which I wouldn't want to be without - but the dc would have done them more justice, and in 60hz, had it lived longer

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:07
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At TGS, someone said.. the problem with Microsoft' in Japan isn't the console but the perception.

If Microsoft out-sourced to a local japanese company who made a more local looking console (like Super Famicom in the US) they will find they can capture a much larger market.

Not sure how true that is, but I'd say when you create something more specifically for a market they will react more favourably knowing your thinking about them rather than the collective gaming community.

Quote: "The 360 is just a top-spec gaming PC in a relatively average case."


Not true in the slightest. The Playstation 3 is far more of a PC than the X-Box 360. It's been designed as a gaming machine fire, multi-media applications are more of a bonus.

Media Player for example was added purely so you can view new trailers through Live! and play music while your surfing Live!
Being able to play any movie from your PSP or connect to Windows MC is really just an extended bonus.

The same goes for the Picture Gallery, it was incorporated for game screenshots. The other stuff was added just to make it a little more interesting.

Even Playing DVDs on the X-Box 360 still remains pretty much identical to the X-Box.

Microsoft have been very careful to try and strip it of any real multi-media capabilities. You want to surf the internet or write e-mails you'll have to do that from your PC. Still. This is now doubt more to make sure that Windows isn't replaced by X-Box 360.

When you flip over the Sony, they're trying to make the machine as multi-media capable as possible. Last generation they tried to tax dodge with the PS2 in Europe... this time it's likely that what it ships with will practically make it a computer terminal that also plays games.

The Cell in particular is specifically designed with the Internet in mind. This gives you some idea of the direction Sony are hoping to take. Honestly I reckon they're trying to change the console market to suit the company more. Sony are out of thier depth with games, this is the reason for thier "let anyone have a go" policy.

This has produced some gems over the years, but we should remember this is entirely down to the developers working with very difficult hardware because it's the most open.

Thing is, the Playstation 3 is now the most expensive to purchase, to development for, and license. Effectively Sony have cut off the market that has mad them and is going to rely on established franchises.

Nintendo and Microsoft on the other hand are opening up thier markets more. I don't doubt that the Playstation 3 will have some good games, but honestly I don't think Sony know what they're doing.

The Playstation Portable is a very clear example of this.
Better Machine != Better Sales, Sony of all people should've known this.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:08
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Unreal Tournament on Dreamcast is scarily brilliant, 3-human v 3-cpu is about as much fun as you can have and remain legal, that game never worked right on any of my PC's, it just seemed to fit the Dreamcast perfectly. Quake3 was handsome too, real smooth and fast, but not a patch on UT.


Van-B

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:10
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Quote: "The Playstation 3 is far more of a PC than the X-Box 360."


Where do you even get your facts?

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:13
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He doesn't mean technically, he means in spirit of its intended use

And yeah Unreal & Q3 online on dc were amazing less buggy than live or ps2online too - and at only 56k

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:16
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Magical pixies.
Failing that you can go to xbox.com and scee.com, check them out for yourself.

Having just worked on the X-Box 360 for the past 12months, while it's development cycle is similar to Windows. The way it handles data most certainly isn't like a PC.

It might have multi-thread processing, but it's not designed to multi-task. Especially given the entire system streams, and Microsoft push you to use OpenMP, which is designed for Multi-Processors; sees best advantages with RISC environments.

The Core System has no HDD. 512MB System RAM, 10MB Video Buffer, and an embedded GPU in the CPU. Oh not to mention the DVD Drive is not a standard one you'll buy in the shops as it uses CAS like DVD-RAM.

In all you have an Apple Mac identical setup. You'll achieve around 30-40% of the total system speed. According to Microsoft anyways. Practically speaking it's probably closer to half, but that's still one hell of a jump in what you can do.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:27
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Quote: "Rich - I couldn't aggree more on the Japanese Console game thing But as far as the 360 being a souped up PC - yeah but at 200 quid Its a darn site cheaper than upgrading my PC to play those kind of games"


Yes absolutely - and I think that is where they'll get a lot of their sales from! I mean the 360 will cost less than the graphics card alone for a comparable PC rig. But the problem is, I *have* that PC rig already, so there's no need for me to get the likes of Elder Scrolls for the 360 when I can enjoy it at a far higher res on my PC

At the end of the day the figures speak for themselves. MS could only dream of achieving the kind of sales figures PS2 had. 30 million PS2s sold in less than 2 years, 80 million sold within 5 years.

Think about that for a second - 80 frigging *million* PS2s! That is a hell of a user base. So the hardware is more difficult to code with? Who cares when the size of the market is so massive. Obviously none of the companies who make PS2 games. To think PS3 is going to perform any worse is to ignore all the facts, and ignore all the history. It's standard industry belief that the PS3 will hit 100 million sold units by 2011. Assuming they can make them fast enough.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:31
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Quote: "It's standard industry belief that the PS3 will hit 100 million sold units by 2011. Assuming they can make them fast enough."


I will buy 1 million myself just for the purposes of smashing, bashing, painting on xbox logos, and defacing them in anyway possible and posting pictures of mutilated PS3s on the interent.

On another topic, anyone know where I could get a $300 million loan?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:57
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Quote: "I will buy 1 million myself just for the purposes of smashing, bashing, painting on xbox logos, and defacing them in anyway possible and posting pictures of mutilated PS3s on the interent."


Are you like 6 years old or something? We're trying to have a sensible discussion about the 360 vs. PS3 here.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:58
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Quote: "Are you like 6 years old or something?"


7

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:06 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 17:07
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Heh.

Ok, instead of posts like "it'll never happen" and "I'll buy 100 million PS3s so I can smash them" - how about posting the actual reasons behind your xbox bent? I mean you are in one of the core markets both sides will advertise to, so what made you decide to pick the route you did so soon? Your genuine reasons will be of far more interest to everyone reading, especially given that most of us probably can't even remember when we were 7!

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:08
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Quote: "Think about that for a second - 80 frigging *million* PS2s! That is a hell of a user base."


Depends. Between me, my brothers and sister... we've bought a combined 11 Playstation 2.

That's just between the 4 of us. So that's a ratio of what, 3:1
simply because the consoles kept breaking down. I thought it was ridiculous how the console started to break down and suddenly the Slim came on the market. Especially with such a large number of people complaining of similar faults.

Still it makes me wonder how many of those Playstation 2 are individual users.

Quote: "So the hardware is more difficult to code with? Who cares when the size of the market is so massive. Obviously none of the companies who make PS2 games."


You'd be surprised actually. There's a reason middleware sales are skyrocketing, and it's nothing to do with the fact that games are getting to expensive to make.

For the X-Box 360, X-Box and GameCube. Developing game engines from scratch is a fairly simple job as it is on the PC. Well maybe not simple, but it's realistic for just one person to cobble something together in a matter of months. With limited or no prior knowledge.

With the Playstation 2 this isn't the case. While PUBLISHERS are pushing the Playstation 2 angle, you have quite a large number of very grumpy developers. It's no coincidence you see developers constantly releasing new games on the same old engines again and again. Middleware like Renderware quite simply is going to make sure that Playstation 3 developers have a chance to get reasonable development times.

*if* the console sells as well as Sony hope, then sure they'll be pushed to make these games again. That right there is a big if.
As I mentioned above, and I'm sure you have access to the actual statistics Rich; the Playstation 2 market has been dropping the last year. You also can't ignore the difference between the Nintendo DS and Playstation Portable.

Combine this with the shift of dwindling PC Games sales. On the whole the industry has been taking a hit the past 3years... a very big hit!

I don't see users putting up with another price jack for the same old games in new graphics. This is why I feel confident about how the X-Box 360 will perform, atleast in the UK and US.

Many games are returning to core values. Perfect Dark Zero is a very good example of this, anyone who played the original will know how really revolutionary it was for the time. Just a shame it had such a small audience. When you combine these features with new features allowing you actions you'd expect in 3rd person games.

X-Box might be more mass orientated, but the only reason the Playstation is popular... and lets be honest is because of it's big hitters, that they always paid to have advertised as "On Playstation 2". Even when you have the other platforms there, people who don't pay much attention (adverage public) are going to buy the version they believe it comes one. In this case Playstation 2.

As I said above, I don't doubt Playstation 3 will start out popular. All I'm saying is, I believe too many people will be buying it for it's name not it's games.

Everyone I've talked over MSN about it, generally die-hard Sony fans. Want the PS3 because it's a) the best looking (apparently), and b) because of a game sequal that they can already get on thier current console.

Kingdom Hearts 2, Final Fantasy XII, Jakk 4, Metal Gear Solid, etc.
Although you'll get one or two quirky titles thrown in there; fact is most are buying it for the majority of titles that Sony pay one hell of a lot of money to keep them on thier system.

(Square-Enix recently announced they will be supporting the Revolusion and X-Box 360 more @ TGS 2005)
Personally I reckon people are going to get bored eventually.

I for one won't be buying a Playstation 3 until probably half-way through. The only reason I own a Playstation 2 is .hack// and final fantasy. That's literally it.

Quote: "On another topic, anyone know where I could get a $300 million loan?"


Try Llyods-TSB

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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:26 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 17:29
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Quote: "Everyone I've talked over MSN about it, generally die-hard Sony fans."


That's the whole point though - we (and your friends on MSN) are NOT the a-typical demographic for the 360, PS3 or anything else really. I firmly believe that all of our collective opinions posted here so far are just the tiny techy minority, the early adopters if you will. Our wallets don't influence worldwide success, not when you're talking about the kind of scales Sony and MS are. We're just that little blip on the sales graph early on.

It's how they appeal to the domestic markets that will win the battle - and the games of course. I think this industry quote sums up what I'm trying to say perfectly:

"At least until Nintendo and Sony also deign to enter the next-gen market, Microsoft's biggest challenge is going to be convincing consumers that they need to invest in the next-generation at a time when the current generation offers more than ever before. The incredibly strong launch line-up compares favourably with any console launch line-up in history; but with a sell-out guaranteed this Christmas due to sheer demand from early adopters, we won't know until next year at the earliest whether consumers consider the launch line-up to compare favourably to the games they already have at their fingertips."

I think that whole quote brings us sort of full-circle to what Kangas original comment started all of this off with - it wasn't that he didn't think the launch games looked bad, it was just that they didn't look anything better than what is already the current cream of the crop. To that I have to agree. I don't expect to see any 360 worthy games (from a technical perspective) until this time in 2006.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:41
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The thing that strikes me, is the buzz is about half it was when the XBox and PS2 were being hyped. I mean maybe it was a hurdle, between PSX and PS2 you have a helluva lot of capability, maybe what was provided by Sony and M$ was enough to content us, like we need less of a technology shock this time round, which is handy because I don't think we'll get it. Jeku had some interesting things to say about Cell processor technology, not sure which thread that was in but it'd be cool if he made a new topic slagging off these new-fangled processors like they deserve.

I mean, anyone remember when Munch's Odyssey first showed face - everyone kinda buckled in delight and truthfully that is a very good game - it's full of cool stuff, yet it's actual release can't have been what the developers were expecting, compared to Halo it made less of a splash than a flea in the bath. But the game was good.

It's like Halo killed a lot of the spirit for some unknown reason, like nobody cared as much about killer titles after Halo, maybe the Halo stable is too much competition these days. The thing I remember about the PS2 hype was how powerful the console is, and the XBox it was all about the graphics. No doubt there's games that people are looking forward to, but there's no 'you gotta see this' games yet, there's nothing totally vital and everyone is going by their assumptions based on Sony and M$'s history. People are looking at these next next next gen games, and comparing them to PC games, these machines are having to compete with top spec PC's before impressing anyone really - they better pull their finger out and I don't mean graphically, that's a lost cause.

I mean, a 'Total War' style RTS on a console would never cross the minds of publishers - but it's the kind of quirky title that one of them needs, one of these machines has to tip the scales and nobody is being even slightly original. I mean, Halo3, wow what a surprise... I say again, the Revolution has my full attention.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:44
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Here here, VanB.

I don't like the way the game's industry is heading. Give me a PSX anyday...

Katie and Drew return!!!

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Izzy545
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 17:59
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Just wanted to say to Raven: In Kameo, that wasn't "around 300 goblins" it was more like around 3000. In the newer in-game demo they have(the movie runs about 30 minutes, and you can find it on IGN if you're interested) they have a battle scene that has nearly 5000 characters on screen. That includes massive ogres, tanks, orcs, elves, and the player.

Now, the graphics may not be supremely life-like, but I can't think of any current gen game with a battle involving 5000 characters with that kind of quality graphics, can you?

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:00 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 18:02
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Rich : Yes, that was exactly whst I was saying I WILL buy one - just as i WILL by a PS3 and Revolution. At some point I buy all consoles no matter how good or bad because there willbe at least one game I want to play on it - but I only buy one on release day if theres something that REALLY wows me - otherwise I'll wait till they come down in price. I paid 250 pounds for an N64 and 200 for dreamcast on release, only for them both to be 100 after just a year! Mario64 was worth it tho Although on reflection I could have waited for the DC, Sonic adventure was far more flawed thann I would have liked... amazing games in the long run tho

VanB - agreed again

And wow Kameo sounds cool I hope its back to the good old Rare days of games - a few of their more recent games (whilst technically stunning) haven't been to my taste...

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:52
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Quote: "Just wanted to say to Raven: In Kameo, that wasn't "around 300 goblins" it was more like around 3000. In the newer in-game demo they have(the movie runs about 30 minutes, and you can find it on IGN if you're interested) they have a battle scene that has nearly 5000 characters on screen. That includes massive ogres, tanks, orcs, elves, and the player."


No, I'm pretty sure it was only around 300 in the X05 Video/Trailer recently released.

The more epic scenes, are not real polygon models your seeing for the most part. What Shader 3.0 allows is some snazzy instancing so basically we create say 30 Orcs. We then make 10 Instance of each of them for a small group. As the groups get larger the instances are then passed back to the framebuffer and the player won't notice that over half of what's actually onscreen are Shader Generated Sprites.

I doubt anyone will really notice, and I don't remember a single scene where there are "1,000"s .. still large numbers are just instances.

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MiR
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 20:55
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Shiny mentioned they can get 1500 characters on a ps2 so this type ofthing can be doe on this generation tech. That was the original argument right? I´ve kind of forgotten.

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 21:42
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Quote: "Shiny mentioned they can get 1500 characters on a ps2 so this type ofthing can be doe on this generation tech. That was the original argument right? I´ve kind of forgotten."


Shiney have a habbit of exaggerating. They're also typically people who come up with crazy new ways to render that breaks the mold. Sometimes it works others it flops.

While the Fillrate on the X1800 is reasonable, and the Shader Pipelines fairly large allowing huge numbers of things to be drawn at once... really the fact you have to take into consideration is simple through-put.

The X1800 is capable of ~300 million triangles / second (game triangles)

So in order to have say 3,000 characters on screen at once they would need to be 1,800 polygons each. This isn't taking into consideration the processor strain this would also cause.

We are also assumming by shaded simple throughout, as well as nothing else in the scene, no post-process shader effects, game ai, etc.

You think of the same on the Playstation 2, with texture and lighting it's capable of ~25 million.

To support 1,500 Models at once each one would need to be less than 550 Triangles. Again not taking into consideration anything bar the models themselves.

It's about reasonable compromises for speed.

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Izzy545
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 23:18
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Well, Raven obviously knows more than IGN, Gamespot, and TeamXBox...

All three of those websites say that the first time we saw the battlefield(a little while ago, the first off-the-screen preview) they showed us 3000 trolls, and then 1000 elves joined the battle, making it 4000 creatures on-screen. Anyways, let's see what IGN has to say, eh?

"The first time Kameo leaves the enchanted kingdom she happens upon a huge battlefield where Trolls and Elves are in the middle of a battle. If you've seen the footage of the hillside covered with hundreds of characters you may have a slight idea of what the game currently looks like. At the first encounter there are over 3000 trolls on screen before 1000 elves launch an attack from a nearby valley. Talon the leader of the elf army lets Kameo borrow a horse with which she can blast through dense crowds of enemies. There are three types of characters to ride in the game including a dragon and a secret unlockable creature.

Each time Kameo crosses the badlands the scale of the ongoing war increases. Our second visit to the area revealed 5000 characters on screen including Dragons, huge Trolls and giant catapults."

BOOM!

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Raven
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Fair enough... You believe whatever the hell you like.

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The admiral
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 06:37
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I disagree i have watched lots of trailers off the net and their amazing not prerecorded graphics ingame gameplay. The thing is that most games arnt really anywhere near complete.

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