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Geek Culture / Final year uni project on DBP!

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:04
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I just got my final year project accepted, and it's on DBP. That's my task for the next 7 months.

Title:
An investigation into the Capability of DarkBASIC Professional as a real-time strategy game development language.

Hypothesis:
DarkBASIC Professional can be used to create a real-time strategy game, technically as complex as 'Command & Conquer: Generals'.

Rationale:
Haven't quite got this in stone yet, but the rationale for the project is along the lines of justifying DBP as a commercial quality game development platform for a specific game genre.

It should be fun, because it's basically an opportunity for me to prove to myself the 'value' of dbp as a game development language, and make decisions on whether to use it in the future, and sort out my dissertation at the same time.

In case anyone is curious about the viability of DBP, I'll get it online when I'm done. Maybe it'll help prove there's no need for C++/DirectX ... or it might prove the opposite.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:09
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DBPro would (IMO) make a great platform for a C&C generals style game.

The terrain could be done with Advanced Terrain.
The objects outside of that rather narrow camera view would be hidden automatically.
The collision detection against terrain is real fast.

I think you have very little worry about in using DBPro, RTS is actually one of the most fitting genre's for DBPro. A lot of pro's and non-DB'ers would comment that the lack of OOP would make it difficult, really it's a case of realistic limits on what media is loaded, that's all - don't let anyone put you off!.


Van-B

Put those fiery biscuits away!
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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:16
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Cheers mate. Yeah, I'm confident dbp can do it, hense the hypothesis. I was looking for a realistic genre to attempt, and FPS is clearly not the one, but like you said, RTS should lend itself well to dbp. The only thing I have to do is make it technically similar to Generals, and the problem will then be comparing system spec. But Generals was always a spec hungry monster, so I think dbp might just be able to produce something similar.

Anyway, it gives me an excuse to make a game too, and RTSs like you said are technically achievable in dbp. Killing two birds with one stone here.

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:17
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Ahhh, the final exam from heaven...

IMHO it's certainly feaisable (sp!) There's some rts in the showcase, and now with adv terrain it should look cooler than ever


Good luck mate!


Arrr! Blog spotted off ter starboard!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:26
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When its done, you could sell the work to TGC as an advert.

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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Peter H
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:37
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lol @ Mr. Sarcasm.

as Van B was saying DBPro lends itself towards RTSs... too bad i don't ever feel like making one

anyhoo, good luck on your project!

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 18:54
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Cheers guys. My main problem is going to be realiable sources of information for research. Most projects can make use of professional journals and articles from respected magazines etc. but seeing as DBP is still fairly new, and not mainstream to the tech community (I'm guessing its still mainly used my hobbyists), it's gonna be hard to find reliable info that will give my project credit.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:26
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Personally I managed to wangle a game (rather than some rubbish that they want you to do, and get them some money) by saying it was for teaching young kids. Was an adventure (point and click) creator on the Mac that a teacher could use to help teach the kids. Otherwise they wouldn't accept a pure game, or even a game creator, without some snooty morale type reason. I mean games generate tonnes of money, even in 1990 for gods sake?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:31
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Doesn't this mean though that you will have to write similar code in different languages to prove a point? Plus do different game examples to show all aspects of gaming. This would leave lots of little demos basically.

Personally I'd go with the "teaching" angle again, as you can concentrate on one game all the time (with a kick ass editor for the "teaching" side of things). Plus you can see the dollar signs click in their eyes as they see more of a prospect of getting some money. Plus the testing phase (we had to actually interview places where it could be used, and get people to test the final product) is a piece of p**s. Just give it to a school for free. They love free.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:41
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What I actually make is irrelevant really, and it's not marked. The only thing that's marked is the process to proving or disproving my hypothesis. Because I've narrowed it down to a specific game really, I only need to make the one game (or demo of) that is technically as complex as C&C: Generals. I don't need to look into other languages (thank god) as I can prove or disprove my hypothesis just using DBPro.

It's basically an excuse to make a game, but at the end I should have a very scientific investigation into what db can actually do, and that's where the marks are. My game can be utter crap (hopefully not), so long as the science behind it is sound. (This is a BSc btw, not a BA or BEng)

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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 19:46
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Mine was a BSc (Computer science). But ang on, wouldn't you have to make a game equivelent to a very recent game? And is it basically marking how well you have made the argument that DBP is as good as any other language (C++)? Don't know how they mark that though. I mean how can they judge how good a programmer you are, and who is to judge how good the game is? I mean you could feel it is as good as a retail C++ game, but you could be in rose tinted land.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 20:17
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We've had plenty of brain drilling on this subject of projects and 'making things' recently. The only thing they care about is how good a scientist I am. That's what should get you your BSc. Doesn't matter what degree it is really. If it's a BEng, you're proving you're an engineer (can make a machine), if it's a BA, you're proving you're an artist (can make something creative), and if it's a BSc, you're proving you're a scientist (can perform a scientific investigation).

What's cool about that is, you can choose a project you're capable of doing. In this case, I'm choosing to prove DB is capable of making a game like C&C:Generals. That's my hypothesis, and the only thing that stands between me and a first for this project is proving or disproving that hypothesis in a rigorous and scientific manner. If someone can pick up my project, read it and be convinced that I have scientifically proven DB can or can't make C&C: Generals, I get a 1st. The hard bit is being so rigorous that the project is watertight!

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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:25
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Hmmm. Well, hopefully they have changed since my day and assign projects which they don't think can make money. Actually if that is true, then if they allow you to start the project, then this must mean they think it *may* have potential earnings. ie. that DB can make top games. In which case you have already accomplished the task. They believed you. Then take the rest of the year off and drink beer (no change there, but no stress on deadlines).

Do you have to do a presentation BTW? When I did mine I had like a couple of 3.5" floppys, and some notes. The bloke in front of me came out with like some kind of 2 foot tops looking robot with like dozens of cables. Bit of a hard act to follow that one with a game creator for 5 year olds (at least the version I showed them)....

Also follow my amazing advice. Think about typing up all the documents more than 4 days before the end (think we had to have at least 120 pages - without listings). It's hard to concentrate with no sleep for like 70 hours. Tired just thinking about it....

Oh, and it looks like they have gone even more for that old "research is more important than programming" angle. We had like 40% of the marks for the actual coding. A friend of mine about 5 years later only got 25%, and a person I employed a few years ago got 15%. Gotta love how Uni works

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Raven
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:42
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Personally I would say that DBP isn't really best for RTS, because of the larger object counts.

It doesn't handle that so nicely, although 5.9 does go some way to fix many of the alpha transparency issues. Those will be the main ones, especially as ZBias and ZDepth kill speed.

Not sure what else you need to look out for development wise right now but those would certainly be my main conserns.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:45 Edited at: 12th Oct 2005 00:45
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Heh, I remember my project manager (Lecturer who made sure all was ok) was this really tough giant american bird who had worked on developing the original Harvard graphics (remember that one!). God she was a bit of a witch, and no sense of humour. Yeesh...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 00:52
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Funny, times must have changed a lot mate! The project is not important at all, and the uni have no interest in it. I didn't even have to sell my project idea, I just had to convince them I had a scientifically sound hypothesis and rationale. Some guy on my course is doing an investigation into if playing compy games increases hand eye coordination, which is so untechnical, it's almost psychology, but because it's a scientific study, it's ok. He won't even have to make anything, which shows how unimportant my game demo will be. It's only purpose will be to assist in proving or disproving DBs capabilities as an RTS maker.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 01:01
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Quote: "investigation into if playing compy games increases hand eye coordination"
Erm, this is BSc Computer science? I mean it was a while ago now (left in 1994), but it was like programming pretty much to the hilt one way or the other.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Fallout
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 02:11
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Actually, this is BSc Communication Systems. Basically programming, but for web development, network systems and communication applications (so we code for mobile phones, PDAs, internet coms, client server stuff etc). Still lots of coding, but not a straight comp sci degree.

We still have assignments that are specific to the modules. So we have networking assignments to create WANs etc, OO assignments for Java web based apps etc etc. but for our dissertation, anything goes, so long as it's based on IT and can be scientifically investigated.

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MikeS
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 03:47
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Hey Fallout glad to see you coding again, and with DBP. A very interesting project indeed, and you'll definitly have to post the results up.

Since this is for a grade, I'm assuming you'll be forced to finish this too. Haha, kidding aside, if you need help, contact me.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 05:16
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That sounds sweet, Fallout

I did my final Uni project for April of this past year (Bachelor of Computer Information Systems). My idea was way too ambitious, as it was a game programming language. I don't recommend making any large promises hehe.

The hardest part was the documentation. Well over 100+ pages which was done in just over a weekend. Damn! Good luck

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 05:49 Edited at: 12th Oct 2005 05:50
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Hehe an RTS...

As long as it isn't boring...

And I want to see some nudity.


The future is here, and I can't afford it.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Oct 2005 10:16
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Quote: "I'm assuming you'll be forced to finish this too"
Nope. Mine didn't meet the *original* design (ended up a lot simpler than the massive epic I planned), and one bloke couldn't even get his to compile. Ever. And he still got a decent enough grade because his research was sound (plus the idea was pretty good, but the actual programming would always be tiny). Sheesh, he would be out of a job where I work (ie. the real world). "I didn't get that program to work, but never mind, I'm sure the client will benefit from the great research I did.". Yeah great. Don't be a stranger....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Deadwords
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 01:47
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Quote: "And I want to see some nudity"

lol

-----------

This is a great subject for your final year project. I doubt DBpro can't support this complexity by optimizing. If you code by executing heavy and laggy commands, it would be bad..

=-{SKaleX}-= Current Projects: -Insane Killer-=-Chaos Zone-
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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 14:45
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It's traditional to work something cheeky into your project. I'll get some nudity hidden away in there, I guarentee it. More lucy pinder action, I'm thinking.

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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 14:55 Edited at: 13th Oct 2005 14:56
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Quote: "The hardest part was the documentation. Well over 100+ pages which was done in just over a weekend. Damn!"
tell me about it, this is how i found out about DBpro was when i was doing a school project on game development... Everything was relatively easy until i reached documenting and describing how i did everything....it was a very large pain in the F***ing ass. It took me about 3 days of solid work...

But good luck to you though!

“A lot of people approach risk as if it’s the enemy when it’s really fortune’s accomplice” - Sting“
.......S-S-D-D.......
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Dazzag
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 19:22
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Quote: "It's traditional to work something cheeky into your project"
Yeah, cos mine was an adventure creator then I had saved game states for different adventures. The ones I showed them were your typical 5 year old type point and click (as it was supposed to be) with nice teddy bear type graphics. But I had one adventure made that was like a fantasy adventure with loads of blood and monsters etc. And it was based on that old adventure game on the planet Lesbos......

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Damokles
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 20:05
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My final studies project was also about DB. Created a teaching programm back then.

But you have to keep one thing in mind :
- If you succeed, then everything is proven.
- If you fail, it doesn't proove that your hypothesis was wrong, but then you have to point every aspect that interferes in your work : (You didn't have enough time, the team was not big enough, the 3D-modelling programm was too crappy, ...)

- Mind the gap -
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Fallout
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 20:23
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Yes mate. Like you said, it's basically the substance behind the program that gets the marks, and not the program itself. If I'm successful with my RTS, I still have to prove it's successful with tests (maybe a questionnaire for game players etc). If I fail, I can still get a 1st if my investigation is sound.

Cheers for the comments.

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Damokles
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 20:26
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The best way to investigate if it succeeds is to submit it to a maximum of download pages and magazines, so you get all their reviews. But then, you allready have to look for them now.

- Mind the gap -
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