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Geek Culture / should an OS have a system requirement?

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Me!
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Posted: 24th Oct 2005 20:19
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this is about estimates for the longhorn OS`s "system requirements"

Quote: " Analysts expect minimum requirements to start with a 4GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM, built-in wireless networking, and a DirectX 9-capable 3D accelerator with at least 128MB of RAM. But the recommended system could be far more powerful"


now come on, we have all heard the old saw "Intel giveth and Micro$oft taketh away", but do they realy think that all we run on our PC`s is the bloody OS, you know?, some people might to run programs on it as well, at the rate Billy boy and his cronies are going I will need another PC to run the software on.

correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn`t an OS just allow you to find/save/load files from HD, execute code and run your peripherals?, roughly the same peripherals that where available two decades ago?, so how the hell do they justify the jump from 20mhz intel with 16mb ram and 200mb hd to that insane spec for the bloody OS, does anyone else here think MS have lost the plot?, should an OS HAVE a system requirement?, surely it should be that small and unobtrusive you could run it on anything?.

yeah! MS bundle a load of bad software with it for "free", but I would rather use my own choice of browser/mediaplayer/text editor/<insert app here>, I think the Linux camp are going to gain followers by the truckload, you can boot a workable GUI system in under 32MB, and you don`t need to pre-order with the Cray corporation in time for Longhorns release, imo asking everyone to go out and buy a high end machine to run the latest OS is so arrogantly dumb I do wonder what they are on, obviously Coke is too cheap around Redmond.



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Jimmy
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Posted: 24th Oct 2005 20:24
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*giggle*


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tpfkat
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Posted: 24th Oct 2005 20:29
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problem is...if your gonna get the os that is complient with most other software then they can make it however they want and charge whatever they want.
i have a windows version of linux and the standard linux os but i need to use windows xp as the software i want only runs on it,so bill you ripoff merchant drop the bloody prices of future windows.
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 24th Oct 2005 23:34
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I thoroughly agree that windows should not be anywhere near as large in hdd space or have anywhere near as high a spec to run as it already does let alone in the future. However I sincerely doubt that the "analysts" are correct about it being THAT high.

The vast majority of the files windows installs are un-necessary for the general runnings of the computer. However unfortunately if windows did NOT have all the extra cr@p and need a super dooper pc to run the latest version, it wouldn't look "hi-tech" enough to the PC buying general public. Lets be honest. How many essential new features does XP have over a 9X core system when it comes to say, word proccessing, accounts and internet, what the majority of users buy a pc for? If it wasn't for the fact that XP runs my pc with less crashes (offline at least) I would see no reason to upgrade it - I get more and more annoyed with how greedy Windows is for hdd space and system resourcves everytime I try a new version

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Killswitch
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 01:03
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Firstly there's no way that'd be the correct (minimum) system specs; not enough people have a computer like that. Vista is comming with different levels of the GUI which means that you'll only need a good machine to get the best of the effects!

When Vista comes out we're gonna wonder how we lived before it...

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re faze
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 03:22
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thats friggin stupid! why do you need a gaming rig to use windoze alone! i remember decent games fit on a floppy! what happened! drivers dont even fit on floppys now! people program like frickin pigs nowadays, i remember when a programmer had 500k and they thought about it and partitioned it intelligently, now people just assume that you have at least 64mb of mem and just allocate rediculous amounts of memory and have tons of latency and wasted ram in their productions. windoze is no execption. imo win2k was the best version to date, i have winxpPro and frankly it seems to be win2k with a better gui, lets face it, win2k = about 500-800 megs of hdd space, win xp home/pro - about 3gb i mean come on man!

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 03:41
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I love how people here use their noggin

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 11:14 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 11:39
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thats one of the more conservative system requirement "estimates", how about this one?

Quote: "Microsoft is expected to recommend that the "average" Longhorn PC feature a dual-core CPU running at 4 to 6GHz; a minimum of 2 gigs of RAM; up to a terabyte of storage; a 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link; and a graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today.

That's according to developer sources close to the company. Microsoft officials would not comment on the Longhorn reference implementation.
"


ok so thats average requirements, not minimum, but realy all windows is is dos with pictures, and have you ever downoaded Damn Small Linux?, runs off the cd (all 50mb of it) and has a nice GUI, mediaplayer, text editor, networking etc, ok, so it isn`t windows and has a learning curve, but you can get a working, stable, fast OS and STILL have room to install the software afterwards, oh and heres a comment from Micro$oft themselves about system requirements that hints at high end (note the reference to 64 bit machines)

Quote: "Microsoft has yet to announce minimum Longhorn system requirements, but for PC buyers seeking insurance that a new system will run Longhorn, the company advises getting 512MB of RAM and a "modern" CPU--more than Windows XP needs. As with most of the recent Windows updates, the easiest way to get Longhorn will be on a new PC, and by late 2006 most PCs will be 64-bit. "


(from PC world.com), it looks like MS are being cagey because they don`t want people complaining in advance at the system requirements, if they aren`t so bad then why not say what they will be?

don`t forget that all you need to actualy run your PC is 32bit dos and a few drivers, 2-3mb tops, windows is mostly just eye candy and stupid accessories like a defragmenter that takes 200 times longer than a dos version to defragment a drive (and sometimes messes it up) or a backup utility that can`t backup all of drive C: because theres a program using a swap file on it (DUH!..wonder what program that could be?)

and I go with Greed on the filesize of modern programs, I have seen authors boast that their implimentation of space invaders is small at 30mb, the original was in under 8k, dunno where the other 29992k came from



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Arkheii
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 12:28
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How would Vista and a game like F.E.A.R. run together at the same time?

"Always remember, you are unique - just like everybody else."
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 12:59
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Alos - as far as I am aware there have been beta copies and tests of Longhorn floating around for at least a year, updating now and again. Surely being that 4-6 ghz pcs don't actually exist in normal society those can't be minimum spec...?

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Lukas W
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 13:04
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i may be wrong but the AMD Athlon 64 X2 can have up to 4ghz.. or atleast it can have the tag "4000+"

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 13:55 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 14:07
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these specs are what they are expecting to need by the time they release it, some is most probably exageration to a degree, but Microsoft have a reputation for bloat and high system demands, when XP was announced people where saying it was a lot to ask for a minimum spec of 300mhz and 1/2 gig ram, 1 gig hd just for the OS (and it was back then, my HD was only 6 gig), they just keep making Winderz bigger and more power hungry.

er? hello? calling Bill?...we actualy buy our PC`s to run software...not Windows, Windows is the means to an end, not the end it`self, since when did you need a high end games machine to run the ruddy operating system?, I have a server on my network running 98se fully patched with DX9.0c (cos I have a spare licence for 98 more than anything), and apart from slight win98 clunkyness it runs way faster on 2.0ghz than XP does on 3.1ghz, thats despite XP`s supposedly better precaching and filesystem.

I think MS are losing the plot, you see that a lot with people/firms who have monopolies, they get arrogant and complacent, then someone new comes in and next thing they are laying off or a footnote in history, look at IBM, from world leader to almost nothing in two decades, and the companies they spun off to stay alive where all profitable once they got rid of the old and complacent managment, same with Amstrad, got complacent and decided they didn`t need Shugar (and dumped the R&D dept as "not profitable"), went from commonplace "we make everything" boxshifter with high demand to minor manufacturer, or Apple, in serious truble once the suits took over, now back on track when they got someone actualy interested in the product back in control.

one of the reasons the X-Box runs software so fast is that what is left of the trimmed down XP they use to run it gets out of the way when a program starts running rather than trying to multitask (something any PC system isn`t realy made for since the internal hardware architecture isn`t up to it), I don`t know what extra services will be running in the background with Vista, but if it`s maintaining 3D access to the video card to run any Windows, widgets or messageboxes it needs to pop up then I would expect it to slow down the performance somewhat, given MS always write code that assumes the OS has priority over everything anyway, so something like F.E.A.R might suffer a bit as a result, plus you have a buggy OS (see name of authors ) constantly using the 3D card for what should be normal display tasks that only realy require 2D, thats bound to be asking for problems/trouble.



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Dave J
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:08
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Those quotes can't be too accurate if they're still referring to it as 'Longhorn'.


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Lukas W
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:10
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fair point

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:17 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 14:24
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well, I have been talking about Longhorn for so long I had to edit to "Vista", and we all know Vista is Longhorn, I don`t see why someones choice of name invalidates their opinion or assesment (plus I put longhorn in the search box when I was looking up other comments...you get what you ask for ), MS don`t have a good track record with Longhorn anyway, they probably want the fresh start a new name would give them, first there was the DRM debacle (that wasn`t a realy popular idea was it?), then the built in "authorised vendor chip" concept that locked hardware to running MS products, then they had to drop the indexing filesystem, and the .net core thing, there aren`t realy any innovations other than the trick 3D interface left, and I could live without that considering what it asks of me to run it.

and this doesn`t actualy answer the question anyway, should a OS actualy have system requirements?, imo it shouldn`t, it should be as small and unobtrusive as possible, I don`t see why we need huge, powerfull computers to run windows, it`s not as though we can converse in English with it and get intelligent replies back, that would justify the system requirements, but NOT 3D menus.



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David T
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:33 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 14:33
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Quote: "4GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM,"


I highly doubt the 4ghz, more likely 1 bare minimum.

Quote: "built-in wireless networking,"


That isn't even a required feature?

Quote: "and a DirectX 9-capable 3D accelerator with at least 128MB of RAM"
.

If you want to run the high end graphics desktop rendering, yes. But there are many version of the Vista desktop, ranging from processor hungry and beautiful to functional and ugly.


How many people here could honestly say they'd buy Vista if I had the GUI of windows 3.1? We all want faster, more beautiful, more feature packed OSes. There has to be a compromise in terms of hardware requirements somewhere

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:33
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"4000" does NOT mean 4ghz, ust as the 3000s are not 3Ghz - its confusing! I think the reason is becaseu they are lower clock speeds than the intel equivalents but run far faster/more efficiently

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Dave J
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 14:44
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Quote: "I don`t see why someones choice of name invalidates their opinion or assesment"


I'm talking about the sources of the direct quotes posted above, they can't be viable news sources if they can't even get the name right.


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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 15:15 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 15:55
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er? why? plenty of professional people still refer to "vista" as longhorn, the name change is cosmetic and not final yet, I personaly don`t care if windows looks like 3.1 or 95, I just want it to work reliably and not use resources better used for other things, plus the appearance is a moot point unless you spend all day admiring your desktop, I am usualy doing something, what windows looks like is of no interest to me whatsoever, then again people say I am weird because I buy a car on the technical spec and cost assesment rather than looks, so maybe it`s just me .

anyway, still nobody actualy answers the question, whats up?, too hard for you? , should an OS have a system requirement?, bearing in mind that it would be possible to scale the OS to match the system it ran on, why install networking on a system that has no modem or network card for example? you can install it later if the user upgrades.

anyway...heres some "dodgy" references.....

[href] http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/09/07/vista_hardware_reqs/[/href]
http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry360.html

this is a more dubious reference

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/newsroom/winxp/VistaBeta1FS.mspx

and this reference bears reading in detail, especialy the following part.

Quote: "In the Home category, Microsoft will create four product editions: Windows Vista Starter Edition, Windows Vista Home Basic Edition, Windows Vista Home Premium Edition, and Windows Vista Ultimate Edition. In the Business category, there will are three editions: Windows Vista Small Business Edition, Windows Vista Professional Edition, and Windows Vista Enterprise Edition"


ref

http://www.winsupersite.com/vista/

and from a Micro$oft interview we NEED PCI-Express to run Vista?

Quote: "AGP is 'not optimal' for Vista. Because of the fact that graphics cards may have to utilise main system memory for some rendering tasks, a fast, bi-directional bus is needed - that's PCI express."


I do wonder what the dear man was on, as far as I am aware AGP IS bi-directional, you have to worry when the people making the OS don`t know that, what next?





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Arkheii
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 16:22
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There's something about the screenies of IE7 that make Vista look cluttered and ugly. Perhaps it's the new location of the menu bar, but I'm not too sure...

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 16:38
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Quote: "AGP IS bi-directional"


and slow as hell.

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 16:56
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Quote: "and slow as hell."


well...DoomIII was set there (in Hell) in part, but I don`t recall it being slow on AGP 8x (nor was FarCry and HL2), and I still don`t see why the GUI of the latest OS needs better capability than the current top of the range 3D FPS , maybe you like buying insane spec PC`s just to run Windoze on, but I never found menus that exciting



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re faze
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:08
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i liked the win 3.1 gui
however for the next version of windows i would like to see dynamic defragmenting like on mac os10 and also better memory and driver managment like how linux only loads drivers if they have been used fairly recently.

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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Killswitch
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:12
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Quote: "
when XP was announced people where saying it was a lot to ask for a minimum spec of 300mhz and 1/2 gig ram, 1 gig hd just for the OS
"


And the exact same will happen with Vista. People will buy new computers with Vista pre-installed, and with the advances in technology that will happen over the next few years we'll look back and wonder how a 'high end computer' (today) was ever fast enough to run paint (compared to a future 'low end' computer).

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Van B
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:17
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I'm not at all bothered about Longhorn, frankly my PC won't run it and I don't care - there's nothing more agrovating than being forced to do something, like Gates would love for every PC owner to upgrade their entire PC and processor upto 64bit so they can run Longhorn - I mean, anyone care to put a price on a basic rig to run Longhorn? - considering how expensive XPPro is, we're talking £150+ for longhorn alone. Frankly Gates, you can shine it on your jumper then cram it.

If I buy a new PC I'll worry about it then, but really I have so many better things to spend money on, and my PC is behaving itself right now, new windows features and suchlike are for PC geeks who do nothing but upgrade and pimp their PC's while slagging off slower systems (hi George). Frankly I prefer to see real fast PC's run real fast software, not have their resources laid on a plate for the OS to gobble up - someone should explain what an OS is to Gates, remind him how neat and simple DOS was.


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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:25
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Greed brings up a good point. That there can be more to an OS than just pretty graphics covering up DOS.

If M$ really does use these system requirements, they'd be shutting out a huge chunk of their potential audience; many of whom are already unsure to make the switch because (AFAIK; I could be wrong) Longhorn so-far is no more than XP with purdy colors.

For example, I know I'm sticking with XP, because almost anything Longhorn can do now can be synthesized using third-party software (much of it free and not memory-intensive). The fact that Vista is a graphics hog only seals the deal against it.

The only way M$ could convince me to get Vista is through functionality. If Vista ran %150-200 faster than XP on the same machine (which we know it won't for the reasons above), or if it had some wicked awesome resource management or crash protection, or if it were super-easy to develop for, or it had some other feature than Microsoft Word with Halo 2 graphics, I might be persuaded. But so-far, none of that has happened.

And that's why I'm not getting Vista. This is all my opinion, though I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me. If anyone wants to tear through my argument with reasonable evidence, feel free to do so.

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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:28 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 17:29
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Quote: "how neat and simple DOS was"

*shudders*

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Undercover Steve
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:34
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I am not going to complain. My pc meets all the required specs. Gates can shove it if he expects to put me down.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:34
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"someone should explain what an OS is to Gates, remind him how neat and simple DOS was."

Thoroughly agreed. I stuck with DOS and dos apps as long as I possibly could to avoid "upgrading" to Windows... didn't stop using it completely until 98se was released!

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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 17:53
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Death to microsoft.

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 18:27
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the trouble is that they go for the wrong things, built in DRM and 3D gui`s that require fast 3D acceleration to run em, insecure browsers and bad messenger software, monitors that won`t play video without the right licence, mediaplayers that audit your hardrive and lock up files they don`t like etc, they should stick to making an OS and let the users decide what they want to do with it, rather than making an OS then telling you what you will do with it.



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JoelJ
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 19:16 Edited at: 25th Oct 2005 19:17
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Quote: "System Requirements


Minimum system requirements will not be known until summer 2006 at the earliest. However, these guidelines provide useful estimates:

• 512 megabytes (MB) or more of RAM

• A dedicated graphics card with DirectX® 9.0 support

• A modern, Intel Pentium- or AMD Athlon-based PC.

"

that's from the exact Microsoft link you provided

all those specs you posted are bull crap, and if you can't see that, you don't deserve to run ANY os.

I have run one of the most recent betas of Vista on my computer, which had:
an old AMD Side mounted processor, running at a blazing 600mhz
[edit:forgot to add my videocard]
a freaking NICE Radeon Rage card, what a dreamy card
256 SDRam (wasn't even DDR)
no wireless card

Ran really nice actually, loaded just as fast as XP Pro, ran just as well as XP Pro, no problem.

btw, when was the last time you saw a HOME PC with 1gig ram and a 4-6ghz processor?

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 19:19
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Quote: "well...DoomIII was set there (in Hell) in part, but I don`t recall it being slow on AGP 8x (nor was FarCry and HL2), and I still don`t see why the GUI of the latest OS needs better capability than the current top of the range 3D FPS , maybe you like buying insane spec PC`s just to run Windoze on, but I never found menus that exciting "


erm, relevancy ?

My point was that AGP infrastructure is based upon a changing model in PC mutli media. Away from being segmented and towards a more unified approach. While the AGP bus are a fast receiver of data, it's actually a slow sender. Aka a bottleneck. Which is obvious when attempting to read video memory with the main cpu for example.

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MiR
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Posted: 25th Oct 2005 19:25
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Quote: ""well...DoomIII was set there (in Hell) in part, but I don`t recall it being slow on AGP 8x (nor was FarCry and HL2), and I still don`t see why the GUI of the latest OS needs better capability than the current top of the range 3D FPS , maybe you like buying insane spec PC`s just to run Windoze on, but I never found menus that exciting "

erm, relevancy ? "

I think he was joking. Runs as slow as hell..Doom 3 was partly in Hell and it didn´t run slow.

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re faze
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Posted: 26th Oct 2005 05:11
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yeah, i meet the specs, but it would be nice to see more functionality, not just unlocked existing functionality, inface windoze xp actually has more vuernaribalities than previous versions (jpeg exploit anybody ) or how about hdkiller?

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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re faze
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 06:47
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its kind of funny since im almost certain that the general public doesnt have those type of parts yet. and do amd boards generally support more than 2gb of ram?

out of curiousity,do the 2gb ram chips exist on the market yet or are they still in testing?

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 08:07
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Quote: "out of curiousity,do the 2gb ram chips exist on the market yet or are they still in testing?"

you can buy them, have been able to for a few months

Quote: "and do amd boards generally support more than 2gb of ram?"

yes, I think it's like 6gigs max right now

Quote: " its kind of funny since im almost certain that the general public doesnt have those type of parts yet. "

that's why it's phoney, MS wouldn't make a program that only gamers can use, that's REALLY bad marketing

I'll give you some toast
My BLOG really sucks...
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Dave J
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 11:35
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Quote: "er? why? plenty of professional people still refer to "vista" as longhorn"


Who said anything about 'professional people'? I said news source.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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AluminumPork
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 13:35 Edited at: 27th Oct 2005 13:37
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I was all scared off by XP's minimum system requirements at first. Then I realized it ran perfectly on my Athlon Thunderbird 900Mhz, 128MB RAM and Voodoo 3 PCI card. Seriously, it ran fine. But as some people have mentioned, 1GB RAM is already an option on new computers. My new laptop is coming with 2GB of it. So I'm not worried. By the time Vista is released, specs on new computers will be much much higher, and I'm willing to bet that a mid-spec computer from Dell or HP or any other builder will have between 512 and 1GB, with a high end having 2 or more.

It's not as if the OS uses all of the memory. I have 512 on my current laptop with absolutely no issues with XP, even though the recommended spec for XP is 512 with a "256 minimum" (or so they say).

OSX really isn't all that different. My friends brand new PowerBook has 1GB of ram and it runs it beautifully, but I have seen even it choke. 256 is way to little (as he another Mac with 256 and OSX choked on that). I'd say Microsoft really is just catching up.

I'm pretty excited for Vista personally.

<edit>and please don't say that an Athlon 4000+ or whichever number it is runs at 4Ghz, please oh please don't say that. If the spec actually was "4GHz AND ONLY 4GHz!!!" then I guess all the people who just went out and bought they nice new 64bit procs are out of luck. Too bad. </edit>

P4 2.4Ghz HT, 512MB RAM, ATI Radeon 9600 128MB, 19" Samsung SyncMaster 997DF, 80GB HD

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Me!
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 13:47
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well! apart from the cases of selective reading, flaming and going off on wild tangents, nobody actualy seems to want to reply to this thread, so forget it, go back to your wildly exciting word game thread .



Tyger software
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Killswitch
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 15:14
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32 bit systems are limited to 4 GB of RAM while a 64 bit system is limited to 8 TB of RAM - IIRC.

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
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re faze
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 16:02
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i believe that you can do variable adressing or sub adressing or something like that for more than 4gb of ram, but why do you need that?

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Oct 2005 16:57
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It'll be a cold day in hell when I buy hardware so I can run Windows.

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indi
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Posted: 1st Nov 2005 07:24
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for the pc side ill install win98se or win2k or winXP onto client and home computers for more years to come until the latest has had bugs ironed out in vista.

every distro of an OS would require a minimum requirement.
geos , workbench, windows, macos, linux

all require a minimum spec, however you could install a very light framework of linux onto any X86 and some 68k & PPC machines, that are not so grunty.

theres no point in installing vista for a client and have them pay $$$$ for me to come over and tell them its a bug, or is there?. no thats a very bad moral compass towards your clients. Unless of course if you have a client who is go happy and wants the latest OS.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself &#63743;
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DARKGuy
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Posted: 1st Nov 2005 08:08
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Quote: "Analysts expect minimum requirements to start with a 4GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM, built-in wireless networking, and a DirectX 9-capable 3D accelerator with at least 128MB of RAM. But the recommended system could be far more powerful"


Quote: "
Analysts also expect that for being able to own a machine of that power you would have to be a billionaire, living in a villa maybe in Italy or any other place with good economy, hard-working son(s)/daughter(s), the latest Palm which will connect to Windows through the computer's built-in wireless networking, and must have a health exam done to check if your eyes are able to handle DirectX 12's Virtual-Reality system with motion/sound sensors and that you're physically able to play the games programmed in them. You would also need an Android to clean up the dust and maintain the huge fans that your computer's case will need in order to keep the whole system at a normal temperature.

Of course, these are what the analysts expect you to have by then in order to own a computer that powerful - but these are only the minimum requeriments, you could be far more richer.
"


Oh, the irony of it all .

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re faze
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Posted: 1st Nov 2005 14:42
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hahahhahahahahah!!!!

I need someone intelligent to talk to me about my problems too...
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