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DarkBASIC Discussion / Screen FPS and lightmapping

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HWT
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 01:14
Hi there

Is there anyway to increase Fps WITH lightmaps? The reason I ask is that I have a simple model, about 1000 faces in all (it's a big supermarket model) but when I lightmap it in cartography shop, the fps reduces from 30 to 5. Is there anyway to stop this?

Thanks

HelloWorld Tommorrow
blanky
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 08:59 Edited at: 9th Nov 2005 09:01
Check if there's anyway to reduce the poly count on your model, and also try reducing the size of the textures (make sure it's still a standard size; 32x32, 64x64, 128x128, 256x256, 512x512, 1024x1024, etc.).

[edit] Also, make sure you're not doing anything silly like re-creating the objects every loop, or anything along those lines... [/edit]
HWT
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 11:53
I checked the recreation of objects parts. My textures are 256x256. Is there any other way besides reducing polycount?

HelloWorld Tommorrow
blanky
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 17:25
There's got to be something wrong if the FPS suddenly goes from 30 to 5, just because one object is duplicated..

Can you show the loading object part of your code & any code that deals with objects per-loop?

Also, please post your system specs... Just in case, y'know?
HWT
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 19:53
Thanks again for the help, but I've reduced the polygon count from 1000 to 420 and now it's working at 20-25 fps. But I wish it could go up to 40 or something

My specs are quite low but even that doesn't explain the dramatic reduction in FPS: P2 300 MHz, 160 RAM, 32MB AGP Graphics Card (Sis 300/305, integrated graphics system).

Here is the code I used for loading the object:


Also, what exactly is "Vertex Lights" in CShop 4.1?

HelloWorld Tommorrow
Me!
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 22:33
try

sync on:sync rate 0

and see if that makes a difference



if there is one thing I can NOT tolerate, it`s intolerant people.
HWT
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Posted: 10th Nov 2005 00:46
Nope, that doesn't help either

HelloWorld Tommorrow
blanky
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Posted: 10th Nov 2005 20:47
DarkBASIC is *very* reliant on CPU speeds, as it (to get 60 FPS) has to turn all of the code (from a version that's pretty much the same as you type) into machine code 60 times a second.

Also on older computers a lot of the vertex manipulation work is done by the CPU as well, and the graphics card is merely used to accelerate matrix-based functions; So like I said, it's your CPU that's letting you down.
HWT
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Posted: 11th Nov 2005 12:51
But how come just double polygon count can reduce FPS so much ?

HelloWorld Tommorrow
HWT
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Posted: 12th Nov 2005 23:46
I noticed something unusual today - I made a light map using CShop 4.1 and then loaded it in DB editor using the usual way (sync rate 0).

But then, I loaded just the lightmap .x model and the normal .x model. the fps was just 12

But later, I loaded the .3ds version of the same model with the same dimensions and everything and the FPS was 47-50!!!!!!

What's the deal? Please help me :-x

HelloWorld Tommorrow
SimSmall
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Posted: 13th Nov 2005 12:27
Don't take this offensively, but I think it's time to upgrade your machine...

...maybe one day I'll finish a project
HWT
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Posted: 14th Nov 2005 11:43 Edited at: 14th Nov 2005 13:02
My machine is quite good already. As I have numerously said so in the preceeding posts, I will be buying a laptop soon but not immediately. I would just like to make the best of what I have now?

Any ideas my friend?

HelloWorld Tommorrow
TDK
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Posted: 14th Nov 2005 14:59
Quote: " My machine is quite good already"


To be honest with you, a P2 300 MHz, 160 RAM, 32MB AGP Graphics Card (Sis 300/305, integrated graphics) system is far from good these days.

300 MHz is quite feeble for DirectX work - when you consider the norm today is around 2000-3000 MHz.

The integrated SiS GFX chipset is also probably the worst card you could have for DB too - it's horrendously slow. I know because my 2.6G P4 laptop has the same chipset and it rund DB stuff like a snail!

So, all you can do is hang on until you get your laptop - and make sure it doesn't have as SiS graphics card in it!

TDK_Man

HWT
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Posted: 14th Nov 2005 22:03
Quote: "To be honest with you, a P2 300 MHz, 160 RAM, 32MB AGP Graphics Card (Sis 300/305, integrated graphics) system is far from good these days.

300 MHz is quite feeble for DirectX work - when you consider the norm today is around 2000-3000 MHz."


To tell you the truth, many of my friends (actually all of my friends) have P4 and THEIR systems take 3 minutes to reboot - imagine that (when my system takes on 1 minute max). Thanks for the advice though - appreciate it

Regarding laptops, my money isn't available for just buying software and stuff because I'm on a Biotechnology Degree/Masters course and hope to pursue a career there. Computers are just a hobby

HelloWorld Tommorrow
Robin
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Posted: 15th Nov 2005 23:26
Remember to hide the mouse as this increases the fps too...

What res/colour depth are you running at?

Robin

http://www.robinsgames.com | [email protected]

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HWT
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 09:58
I'm running at 640x480x16

Actually, I think that the problem lies with the .x file format because when I loaded up 10 of the same objects in .3ds format, the frame rate only reduced by about 10 or 15 whereas with the .x format, after loading the lightmap and the original object the (2 objects) the FPS went from 50 to 12 or 9.

HelloWorld Tommorrow
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 15:15 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 15:52
were the .3ds meshes textured HWT when they loaded into DB...

***added***

i just looked at your code snippet... i don't think it has much to do with the .3ds or .x format meshes...
why are you using a manual sync in the main loop...

try this... it'll help a lot...
take out those sync commands and replace em with one sync rate 60...



now, since i don't have DB installed on any of my machines, this code is purely from memory, and runs in DBPro... but i'm 90% sure it'll work in DB as well... you may have to put back in your key detection and movement commands, i don't remember for sure... but the basic code should be solid...

i'm getting a constant 63-64 fps... although my machine is a lil more than a 333 mHz machine...

anyway... i hope this helps a bit...
good luck

--Mike
HWT
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 18:00 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 18:02
Thank-you Mike but I've already tried that - sorry I didn't put this segment in the code I quoted which actually included "sync on : sync rate 0 : do".

No, my .3ds file isn't textured but neither is my .x file.

My specs are quite low: P2 300 MHz, 160 RAM, 32MB AGP Graphics Card (Sis 300/305, integrated graphics chipset), Win98SE, DirectX9.0c, updated graphics drivers.

If your specs are similar to this, would it be okay with you if I posted the model and the lightmapped model for you to check it out?

I'm thinking of manually removing some of the .x file information like some dummy frame data and unnecessary material data.

I tried opening the .3ds file to see the differences but it's encrypted.

Any thoughts on this front?

Thank you again

HelloWorld Tommorrow
blanky
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 18:39
Red Ocktober, that's a really stupid idea. You're wrong. Sorry, but it's just so against what me & everyone in this forum has been saying for the last few years that I can't express how wrong you are.

ALWAYS manual sync.

'Sync rate' just slows down how often you can sync, and automatic sync is activated by default. 'Sync On' turns auto off, and greatly improves your frame rate as you render when you want, rather than half-way through your loop. 2D code would be rendered useless & slow.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 22:08 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 22:59
@ blanky... first of all, maybe you talk to your mother or father like that, but i'm not your mother or father... be smart, and learn to talk to me like you've got a civil tongue in your head, and not like one of these lil dirtballs on the street...

second, you don't know what you're talking about... go reread the manual, and learn a lil about how the the latest gpus do screen refreshes...

there's no need to manually sync unless you're in the middle of some cpu intensive process, or tied up in a time consuming loop... look at some of the DBPro code examples...

i'm getting a constant 63-64 fps with that code... just look at the screenshot below...




see the lil 66 up there... that's not your iq, it's the frame rate... although from the way your present yourself, one might be justified in thinking that was indeed you iq...

sorry, you're the one that's confused...

if you knew the least bit about render tweening and maintaining constant and smooth movement across raster output devices, then i might be inclined to take you seriously... but you don't...

if you want your game to play at pretty much the same rate, no matter if it is being played on slow or fast machine with a new or older video card... with the refresh rate set at whatever the user wants... then do it the way i posted...

... or don't, i could really care less... the bottom line, the code i posted above works.


--Mike
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 22:41 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 22:42
@ Red October: will you stop making arrogant posts and putting people down, YOU are wrong, sync rate of zero executes code FAR faster than a fixed sync rate, if YOU knew anything about refreshes you would realise you are wrong, stop misleading people with totaly unfounded claims eg:

sync on:sync rate 0
make object cube 1,1
do
turn object left 1,1
text 0,0,str$(screen fps())
sync
loop

runs FAR faster than

sync rate 60
make object cube 1,1
do
turn object left 1,1
loop

also your closing line was unfounded, you had no need to imply that anyone had a diminutive IQ just because you think they are wrong, remember that insulting other forum users is reportable.



Do parachute manufacturers have a refunds policy?
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 22:48 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 23:00
ahhhh shut your face Who! he was the one who made the insulting post...
Quote: "Red Ocktober, that's a really stupid idea. "

i replied in kind... when he learns to talk to people in a civil manner, he'll get the same...

and you outta mind your own business... you're not trying to help the guy who asked the question here.. you're just trolling in an attempt to pick yourself up from the humiliation i dealt out to you the other night when you couldn't behave yourself...

... sorry, i got no time or desire to play with you tonight... besides, the guy who started the thread needs his question answered, not to have to read through a lot of childish crap...

... so, if only out of consideration for him, put a lid on it, will ya.

Quote: "YOU are wrong, sync rate of zero executes code FAR faster than a fixed sync rate"

so... you would let it run as fast as it can on one machine... say a 4 gHz machine with a decent gpu... and let it run as fast as it can on a 300 mHz machine which would be a lot slower...

come on now... don't be a fool... if you write a game where the objects on the screen are moving at a normal rate on that 300 mHz machine he has, using your method... then you take the same program to a super fast machine... it's gonna run like lightning... and be totally unplayable...

anyway... noone said that it wouldn't run faster... of course it'll run faster... as fast as the system it is running on is capable of running it... but that's not the point now... is it...

but i guess that expecting either of you to realize this is just asking a lil too much...


--Mike
blanky
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 23:23 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 23:40
Bloody hell man, I only said that because what you were saying was totally against everything I had worked for in the last 5 years. I remember when you just joined the forum, y'know...

Also, just putting a 'sync rate 60' on the top doesn't make all computers run it at 60 frames per second. If the computer's too slow to handle 60 (such as your lovely 333mHz piece), then it won't.

And for maintaing constant and smooth movement on raster output devices (i.e., monitors), use a delta-based time system. Can't really work without one, unless you want everybody stuck playing this game at 60fps. A delta-based system is much better, as it allows the GPU to do what it's capable of, and compensates for both high and low framerates. Works like a dream in my FPS; you could render your scene there with a couple of hundred FPS on a fast machine, and it would still be playable on everything.

If you don't believe me, I'll send you the source to my FPS game. Then you'll see what the hell I'm talking about.

I just can't believe you become so uptight and arrogant. Since when did you start owning the forum? What's that, somebody else sticks up for my opinion that you need manual sync?! Woah, they must be stupid.

If you really want me to dig up threads showing that 'manual' sync is the way to go, then I shall. If you tell me your e-mail address I'll send you my code, too.

And as for your 'render tweening', wtf are you on about? Tweening between two constant coordinates, maybe. A lot of that for smoothing out the lag in my netcode, but 'render' tweening? You can't use a cubic spline to tweak a static image, mate...

[Edit] Hmm, a tutorial on using the Sync commands (seems fitting)...
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=42979&b=7
Scroll down to the bottom of The Nerd's post-tutorial, and check out the final code. What do you see?
(If you need more, just say.. It's just my FPS is waiting, and i haven't done any coding in a while) >.< [/edit]

[edit 2]Mr. Ocktober, have you ever tried running this code in DBC?

..Which, by your principles ought to work. I don't know if it does in DBPro or not, but it doesn't in DBC. Also, to be more on-topic, the Ghost Object On command in DBC has no negative ghosting support.
[/edit 2]

Quote: "see the lil 66 up there... that's not your iq, it's the frame rate..."

Sorry, but that is completely and utterly insulting, especially considering that you are wrong.
Is there anything wrong with the code I posted, by your standards? If there is, then I appologise for misunderstanding you; but otherwise, that does not work in DBC.
Doesn't matter if it does in DBPro or not, this is not a DBP forum.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 23:59 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:00
Quote: "I remember when you just joined the forum, y'know..."

yeah... and when was that, could ya let me know...

Quote: "I just can't believe you become so uptight and arrogant."
maybe you should think about not telling people that they or their ideas are stupid... you're the one with the issues young man... not me...

Quote: "And as for your 'render tweening', wtf are you on about? "

http://www.blitzcoder.com/cgi-bin/articles/show_article.pl?f=jl2k11032002164857.html

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=14948

Quote: " Hmm, a tutorial on using the Sync commands (seems fitting)..."
yes... you really outta look at it...

--Mike
blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:02 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:08
Dude, the tutorial on Sync commands supports my views, not yours... Maybe you ought to try reading it...

Also the render tweening is completely irrelevant. Tell you what, I'll dig up some code from my FPS and show you what you can do that's much, much easier & better:

Quote: "
Walk#=(WalkSpeed/14)*(timer()-MovementLast)
MovementLast=timer()
"


Walk# is then fed to Move Camera & the sparky-based collision routines. The 14 is placed as my 'base FPS' is 70, and 1000/70 ~= 14ms between frames.

The walkspeed is calculated for 1ms, then multiplied by how many milliseconds has actually passed. Result? No speed variation, and the computer can go as fast as it likes.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:04 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:08
i read it years ago...

and that lil tut by the nerd that you referenced... here is a quote directly from it...
Quote: "The sync on command tells darkbasic to handle the screen refresh.
Now i have written sync rate 30 that is a good thing to write it will tell darkbasic to run the screen refreshing at 30 no matter what computer it is running on.
"

like i said above... maybe you outta go back and read it again... s l o w l y this time... he seems to know what he is talking about...

your views, well, they are confined to what little you know...

also, when was it that you say i first joined the forum...

--Mike
blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:11 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:12
Crap! Haha, you got me with the forum dates thing, I mistook you for someone else Still, did I not say to read the final code from the tutorial?

Quote: "
If you code dosnt work then here is the final code( I have putted some comments in it so you can see what the things means):


"


Also, you did not answer my question. With my code provided, the simple rotating cube without the sync inside the main loop, as I pointed out, the screen does not update properly in DBC.

Can you deny that?

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:26 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:31
try taking the sync on statement out junior... i thought you said you knew what you were doin...

and you're gonna pretend to lecture me about this... sheeez...

yeah... i think you'd better go and read that tutorial again like i told you to...

by the way, when did you say you joined the forum



--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:50 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:00
Ok, run the following code:



Now set syncon to 0 and run it. Difference? Why yes!

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blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:53
Well, i didn't lie. The code I posted definitely didn't run in DBC.

But.. manual sync is still better.. Take Benjamin's example, for one.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:54 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 00:56
no... Ben is just as mistaken as you are...

@ Benjamin... good... i'm glad that your idocy works just like i said it would above...

of course sync on runs faster... and it'll run at different rates on different machines...

... not really what a game developer would want, now is it.

go to the back of the class with blanky.

--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:55 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:00
Sorry, I misunderstood.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:58 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:00
american langwich... u should loin dat boi...

ok... i can see that you two are going off on your hardy boys with red hair on fire tangent... you have shown you don't know what you're doin, and now you want to engage me in more of your foolishness...

sorry, i've got other things to do... you two have fun with each other...


--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:59
I think you need to learn how to spell.. badly..

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blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 00:59


There you go. Runs at the same speed on every machine.

Proven.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:02 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:02
Quote: "I think you need to learn how to spell.. badly.."

no... you're wrong Benji... i already know how to spell badly...

i think you need to learn when to shut up...

@ blanky... too late, you had your chance... go try to convince someone else that you know what you are doin...

like i said above... bye!!!

--Mike
blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:05
Good riddance.

Sorry to HWT in the midst of this... Guess you could call it a personality clash

The best thing to do would be to read http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=32948&b=10, the game-speeding-up guide. While you haven't got much code to optimise at the moment, it's worth building your code with these guidelines in mind so that you don't end up having to change everything at the last moment.

And stick with that 3DS thing, if it gives you a faster framerate... Imho, 3DS files generally end up being smaller than X models anyway.

16-colour PNGs pwn.
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:06 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:07
Ah... no, I'm right.

Run it, check the speed, set syncon to 0 and run it again. Manual syncing is a hell of a lot faster.

Quote: "@ blanky... too late, you had your chance... go try to convince someone else that you know what you are doin..."

Of course, you run now you realise you are wrong. Typical.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:28
such children... go to bed will ya...

--Mike
blanky
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:29
Two compiled DBC versions provided in this zip file of the above code, one with syncon=0, one with syncon=1.

16-colour PNGs pwn.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:32
Quote: " such children... go to bed will ya...

--Mike"

You're still here? Well ok, so do you admit that you were wrong?

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:34 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:36
see... you don't know when to shut up... you're gonna force me to emabrass you...

wrong about what?

what am i wrong about...

--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:37
By 'emabrass' do you mean scroll up?

Quote: "there's no need to manually sync unless you're in the middle of some cpu intensive process, or tied up in a time consuming loop."

Yes there is a need. Why? Run my code and find out. Oh, and run it in DBC, this is the DBC forum afterall..

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:39 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:42
yes... embarrass means scroll up...

then you can see that you're the one who can't read... or can't comprehend what he is reading...

and i'm busy right now... i aint got no time to fool around with your code... you run your code if you want... or give it to your dog to run...

now, tell me what i'm supposed to be wrong about... before i get tired of playing around with the kiddies and just ignore you altogether...


--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:41
You can stop with the insults anytime now.

If you use automatic syncing, its as choppy as hell, whereas with manual syncing its smooth.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:44 Edited at: 26th Nov 2005 01:50
it's choppy 'cause you don't know what you are doing...

frame rate and logic rate (the rate at which the main loop repeats) are two different things... but i wouldn't expect you to even begin to realize or understand the implications of any of that...

regardless... at a sync rate of 60, how the heck can it be choppy... what are you loading, a million polygon mesh... surely a simple cube can't be moving across the screen or rotating in a choppy way...

if it is... then you either need a new machine... or some new code...


and as far as insults go, you might wanna scroll up again to see who is the one handing out the insults... you're gonna learn that if you behave like a civil mannered person, you'll get the same from me...

--Mike
Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 01:56
Ok I'll put this a simple way. Automatic syncing causes the updating to happen after any 3D command(or so it seems). Now, I don't know about you, but I think this is a complete waste of processing time, not to mention that fact that even with a delta time system it simply doesn't work well.

Here is yet another example.



Run that(from DBC, of course), by default its set to auto-syncing. Now, move the cube forwards, and after a couple of seconds, while holding upkey hold leftkey and watch everything halve in speed. Ahh, precious processing time lost..

Don't keep telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when you have absolutely no proof that you know what you're talking about.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 26th Nov 2005 02:04
nope... no slowdown...

sorrrrrrrryyyyyyy... that's all the proof i need...

ok... i gotta run... you're just wasting my time...

you can stay here and play with yourself if you want...

--Mike
Neofish
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Apr 2004
Location: A swimming pool of coke
Posted: 26th Nov 2005 02:06
Quote: "if it is... then you either need a new machine... or some new code..."


oh dear my vastly inefficient code is slow on my machine, time for an upgrade !

Benjamin
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 26th Nov 2005 02:08
Quote: "you can stay here and play with yourself if you want... "

I do regularly. In many senses.

Quote: " nope... no slowdown...

sorrrrrrrryyyyyyy... that's all the proof i need..."

Now I have an idea, RUN IT IN DBC.

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin - 62%

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