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Newcomers DBPro Corner / All 'real' programmers please.

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Xlimun
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 18:26
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I'm really just looking for some short answers but how long does it take (in your opinion) to become a 'super-user' of a language? And any best ways to learn?

-thnx
Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
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indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 27th Feb 2003 18:34
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6 months of indepth study for about 2 - 5 hours a day would certainly benfit your programming skills.

its still the tip of the iceberg tho because coding is an ongoing experience where u learn new concepts daily.

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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The Darthster
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 18:36
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It's taken me 5 years of experience, but I suppose you could do it in less (only 1 1/2 years DB, the rest QB and GWB). It depends how you define 'super-user'. I can effectively use most of the standard commands without help, and think up physics and logic routines in my head, but I don't know how to use dll's, and some other stuff.

The best way to learn IMO is to think through problems yourself, and then try and explain the solution to someone else. You can't explain a solution without knowing how to do it. Try building programs up from very little, and changing variables to see what effects you get.

Once I was but the learner,
now, I am the Master.
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 21:11
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i'd say about a year with most languages with daily coding is what it takes to be fluent in a language, to be advanced probably another 6 months. It's a dangerous business

Darken the skies, we are God.
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 21:34
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I would have to say that it all depends on the language, and what other languages you know. That, and there is a certain amount of aptitude required when it comes to "thinking like a computer" or should I say, thinking like the previous computer programmers.

I learned VB6 in a week, but I had extensive knowledge of C++ and Java. But to get really good at using all the different libaries (since it is really very vast) it took another few months. Like I said, if you've got the aptitude all you need are the basics and a good reference manual.

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John H
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 22:36
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Ive been using DB for almost a year, using it nearly every day, either on these forums or coding, usually about 2 hours a day But then again, am I considered 'good' ?

RPGamer

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny
http://www.halbrosproductions.netfirms.com
Dont ask those questions! Read the help files lazy!
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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 00:14
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It depends on how interested you are and how good you are at picking things up. I've only had DBPro for 3 weeks(using it in between exams) and I can already program things quite easily. Being a master coder is something you either have or haven't got, it's learning the syntax of a language that takes time to master. It all depends on your logic and your scientific brain.

Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do.
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The Darthster
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 00:59
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I forgot to mention, I picked up GWBasic in a few months, just using a big book full of commands. After that, everything was easy except the maths and physics, they took a bit longer. The first 3d thing I drew was a cube in QBasic, using my own projection and rotation code. Picking up DB was simple, within a day I had a plane flying around a matrix controlled by the keyboard, firing missiles. Nowadays I hardly learn anything new, I'm just applying the experience I already have to different problems in different ways. Although my Magic Eye rendering program is a fairly new mathmatical concept to me, look out for it soon!

Once I was but the learner,
now, I am the Master.
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John H
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 03:45
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Hehehe yea physics arent exactly the easiest thing to do but hey, it would be no fun if everything was easy! Right?! Next year I get to learn about SIN COS and TAN in school YAY!! Lol they will be amazed by my knowledge of these things, from my expierience from DB Math teacher- hail me o_O LOL!!

RPGamer

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny
http://www.halbrosproductions.netfirms.com
Dont ask those questions! Read the help files lazy!
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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 07:14
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Lol, I remember doing the old SOH CAH TOA in school. I first learned VB when I was 11 so by the time we started doing it in Programming class (Aged 15) I totally owned the teacher - actually, it resulted in the rest of the class failing because they were too busy looking at me programming Direct3D demos.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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large_nostril
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 07:30
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It would take about 6 months to a year to fully learn the syntax and be well versed in the operation of the language but that only the half of it. Programming is about using what you have and producing ingenious routines to get you further.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 11:34
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witchbomber "Being a master coder is something you either have or haven't got, it's learning the syntax of a language that takes time to master. It all depends on your logic and your scientific brain."

I have to disagree with this statement for two reasons. First - as anyone who's programmed in a variety of languages will know - the syntax is usually the easiest thing to pick up. I mean, there are only so many ways to do a "for next" loop or math with integers, etc. Once you have good experience of coding you can usually get by with little more than a syntax reference no matter which language you move onto. That doesn't mean you'll get the best from the language, because each one has it's own unique properties and ways of doing things, but the core programming skills you learn on language X can nearly always be transferred to any language thereon.

It is the logic that you learn over time and can improve on massively. Even if you don't have a "scientific" brain it doesn't mean you can't program so long as you are logical in your approach. But logic is a universal trait and applies to most of your life - not just programming. I would say that yes, you either have "it" or you don't.

DB's biggest strength is that it allows people to work in a 3D environment without the pain of the physics required behind it.

DB's biggest weakness is that it allows people to work in a 3D environment HIDING the pain of the physics behind it!

For the most fundamental stuff you don't need anything more than highschool (secondary school) level Maths. Basic trig stuff. A-Level (not sure the US equivalent, like pre-college, 16+ exams) quality math will cover nearly every single math and physics attribute you need to know. Really - paying attention in math class (for those of us who still have that chance!) is the best route ever to advancing your logic side of programming. You will often find that the calculations you are shown don't even equate to code though, there are things we do in code every day that would make a real mathmatician die of shock because they contradict fundamental math laws - because they have to - but that's ok, you're still working with numbers, you're learning about the concepts and you're getting a chance to sit there and think "hmm, I wonder if this sin equation could help my objects move smoothly" - most the time it will

For those of you no longer at school/college who seriously want to learn, get some books. There are some great books such as the "3D Math Primer for Graphics and Game Development" to start you off. Some of the concepts are real head scramblers at first and you'll sit there thinking "thank God DB hides this from me!!" but it's all good knowledge

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Kale
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 14:47
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Quote: "I have to disagree with this statement for two reasons. First - as anyone who's programmed in a variety of languages will know - the syntax is usually the easiest thing to pick up. I mean, there are only so many ways to do a "for next" loop or math with integers, etc. Once you have good experience of coding you can usually get by with little more than a syntax reference no matter which language you move onto. That doesn't mean you'll get the best from the language, because each one has it's own unique properties and ways of doing things, but the core programming skills you learn on language X can nearly always be transferred to any language thereon."


i completely agree with this statement! My first real language was javascript, which i needed to learn for a web dev job i blagged years ago, i bought "Sam's learn javascript in 24 hours" book and never looked back. This book was written to teach complete newbies (which was me) the concepts of programming and 'logic' as rich puts it, and very easy to follow. I then applied this knowledge to other languages such as Python/TclTk/PHP/Perl/DBC/DBP/PB. The syntax changes but the principles are the same for all. Once you know one well, others are easy to learn with just a reference open as you code. The only hard thing to do is memorise the libraries for each language, but thats really not neccesary, just keep your Ref open behind your IDE. I also heard one programmer say at my last job try to always learn a new language every year. This helps get a good overview of programming styles and the logic needed. I'm a lazy programmer (hey who isn't) and i only learn what i need to know for a specific project, and play alot of games in between, but i think to be an uber-coder you need to never stop coding stuff, i have a mate who just never stops writting code, he even wrote a public bench search engine for his local town!!! He rewrites all his favourite utils and apps just for practise. Now thats uber

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 15:18
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I heard a myth that some guys can solve bugs in their sleep!

But really Rich, that truly was inspirational - it's one for the newbie programmer books.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Xlimun
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:22
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Yeah, thanks Rich (and all contributors)

I realy thought a lot longer than most of you confest but you have indeed inspired me to carry on coding.

Time to get down to the library! Hmmm, wonder if i have any unreturned books.....:o

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
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Kale
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 18:49
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if your on a bit of a budget for books try Amazons.com's preowned books section

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
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Attreid
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 22:17
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hmm I won't read all 'cause I don't have much time, but :
I think that you cannot be a 'super-user' of a language, there's still something to learn
I use dark basic ( and lately dark basic pro ) for more than 1.5 years, and I can't say that I'm a super-user, I'm just .. the best-user .. ( uh, sorry, it's my ego ), I'm just an average-user

I'm following John, but I'm not john.
Lol, it is funnier in french
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David T
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 22:30
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It's taken me since end of march last year (wow, coming up to 1 year) hardcore coding, I coded lightly before since Summer 200 when DB first came out.

Visit [url]www.lightning-systems.co.uk[/url]
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Plutarck
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 22:33
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I'm not sure if anyone already said it (can't recall...short memory), but "it depends on the language".

I'd say about 2 years on and off for PHP, 1 year if you are dedicated to it and quickly develop a good intuitive understanding of it - to get to the point that you would be pretty well able to start hacking PHP itself if you know C, and do so productively.

Many people with C++ say they've never stopped learning and are nearly Constantly finding new ways to do things better than they've done them before - even after 10 years. Any "full" language is probably that way.

It is also intimately related to general programming experience, and what languages you already know. If you know BASIC then I would imagine it would be alot easier to learn DarkBASIC, but if you only know C then you it could at most only moderately be easier to learn Lisp because of your skills and knowledge.


Final note that no one has mentioned: Programming is both Knowledge and Skill. Knowledge is a matter of memorization; skill, however, takes ongoing effort and practice. My favorite metaphor: It is like lifting weights. If you can lift a weight once, then you have the knowledge about how to lift weights; how heavy the weights are and how many times you can lift them over a certain time period without being exhausted, however, is a matter of skill.

In the begining, learning to program is mostly about gaining knowledge. Once you reasonably know the syntax and main command sets and such of the language, from then on becoming a better and better programmer is increasingly about skill, not knowledge - two programmers can know the same things, and one can still be 10 times better than the other.

"My house has a 3D interface. I'm constantly losing crap, running into things, and it's always a mess."
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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 22:00
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Rich: I don't want to start an argument, but I have to disagree with your statements on many levels:

"As anyone who's programmed in a variety of languages will know - the syntax is usually the easiest thing to pick up." I forgot to mention there when I said I could program easily with DB after only 3 weeks, I have experience with VB already. Xlimun's question was related to starting out as a programmer, not as someone who's programmed in a variety of languages. I agree the syntax is easy if you're an experienced programmer, but not if you're a beginner. In this example you have claimed to disagree with me but not in fact shown any disagreement to a point I have actually made.

"Even if you don't have a "scientific" brain it doesn't mean you can't program so long as you are logical in your approach." I doubt there is an official definition of the term "scientific brain", but it normally refers to someone who naturally has a logical approach to problem solving. Therefore again you have completely contradicted yourself. I don't mean to sound cocky but I would say I have a good scientific brain with a logical approach. I am naturally very good at maths. I spent about 90% of my time in maths class programming Battleships on a graphics calculator and in my recent higher maths prelim I got 93%(about 20% better than anyone else in my year). For all non Scottish people a higher is equivalent to an English A Level.

Finally, "I would say that yes, you either have "it" or you don't.". Once more you have blatantly agreed with my statement after first saying you disagreed. That is merely a restructure of my own sentence you claimed to disagree with, and here you are saying you agree with it now.
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