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Geek Culture / What's wrong with my cpu?

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dab
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:21
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I ordered a computer online, from costco. When It came to me, I look on the system thing on windows and it said I have a 939mhz cpu. The cpu is an AMD athlon 64 3500+. I used this program on belarc and it said I have a 2.2ghz cpu. What's wrong with Windows? Or am I really only getting 939mhz ? Hope some one can help.


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The Real 87
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:23
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No. Windows is set at the Intell calculations, there for AMDs read wrong. Mine says 1250 Mhz and it really runs at 2.1 Ghz.


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dark coder
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:31
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i think it should display the proper cpu clockspeed, maybe the bios hasnt been updated?


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indi
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:32
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http://www.amdboard.com/athlon_64_3800_review.html

http://www.basichardware.com/cpu3.html

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dab
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:48
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wow, fast replies!

Well, then why would the belarc program tell me 2.2ghz? Thanks indi for the 2nd link. THat was actually really helpful (not for my problem but it was informative).

Thanks, I'll check the bios later today.....


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Jimmy
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 02:50
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Quote: "I ordered a computer online, from costco."


There's your problem.


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dab
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 03:03
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lol. IT was cheaper than most places. It was made in new mexico. (El paso)


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DrewG
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 03:15
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Quote: "It was made in new mexico. (El paso)"


Ha Ha, nice one. El paso is in Texas, trust me, I went there in the summer. El Paso kind of sucks. I don't like that city... eww...

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Lukas W
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 08:20
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your problem is with the BIOS. if i find a book i have i can quote how to fix it. but before i find it im sure you've allready figured stuff out.

ps. we have the same cpu chip only i have a nForce4 Epox Motherboard. it tells me i have a 2200mhz cpu


btw. is 30 celcius alot for a amd processor? im quite worried because i dont know much about AMD i've used pentium my whole life..

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John Y
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 09:28
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Quote: "btw. is 30 celcius alot for a amd processor?"


Nope, that is nice and cool.


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Lukas W
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 09:32 Edited at: 29th Nov 2005 09:42
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allright thanks when i play quake4 and reboot to see what the temp is, it is something like 40+ now is that bad? sorry for asking

edit,
to make it easier for me im just going to ask what the dangerous temperature is for my amd processor ?

edit,
i made a google run and i found that 60 degrees celcius is way too high. mine only reaches 45/46 at max, phew

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 10:54
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40 is fine for after a game. They are rated to work up to something like 70-80C (but they lose stability a little on anything more than abuot 50-60).

My mate had his running at about 100 for a while. When he quite the game and realised it was that hot, he pulled the plug. Turnes out one of the little plastic clips holding the heatsink on had broken so the heatsink wasn't quite making proper contact.

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Andy
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 11:45
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>No. Windows is set at the Intell calculations, there for AMDs read
>wrong. Mine says 1250 Mhz and it really runs at 2.1 Ghz.

Ahem... No!

Windows polls the mainboard BIOS, so to detech the right CPU, the BIOS must know this CPU in advance. You simply have to update the BIOS for Windows to show the correct information.

AMD athlon 64 3500+. is a 2.2 GHz CPU in a 939 pin package. The '3500+' simply means that it performs roughly like a Pentium IV 3.5 GHz CPU.

>Well, then why would the belarc program tell me 2.2ghz?

Because the BIOS polls the CPU and compares the CPU model-number with it's database. Then it reports the closest match to Windows.

Belarc also reads the model-number, but has it's own updated database to compare with.


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TKF15H
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 13:15
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Quote: "Windows polls the mainboard BIOS, so to detech the right CPU, the BIOS must know this CPU in advance"

Ahem... No!!

Windows polls the CPU with the CPUID instruction. The ID then has to be checked with a list that comes with the OS, not the BIOS. There's no database in the BIOS. o_O

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 15:06
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Quote: "Well, then why would the belarc program tell me 2.2ghz?"


I could have sworn this was because AMD CPU's actually run much slower than advertised but use clever juggery pokery to be more efficient than thier more expensive and hotter cousins... Nothing to do with how the BIOS or Windows interprets the CPU. AMD could call the next CPU "The Über-cool-and-fast nano eater", but it would still run at about 2.2Ghz. The 3500+ bit is just a name. In this case the name is meant to imply some kind of comparison between AMD and Intel, otherwise thick "not in the know" people would see Intels lovely large numbers and AMD's smaller numbers and just go for intel as they dont know that AMD is more efficient and doesn't need the horsepower and coolant of a formula one car to get the job done.

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dab
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 16:55
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great! I looked at the bios, and it said the exact specs of the processor. Then I load up widnows, and it told me 2.19 ghz. !! That is frusterating. Maybe Windows needed to check the average speed of it? THanks for all teh replies!


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mm0zct
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 16:58
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IMHO the clock speed windows is reporting is what the cpu is running at, set in the bios, belarc advisor is possibly actually getting the cpu model and comparing it, so it tells you what it should be running at, rather than what it actually is.
have a browse through your bios settings and see if you can get it to redetect the cpu speed.

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Andy
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Posted: 29th Nov 2005 20:08
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>Ahem... No!!

Ahem Yes!

>Windows polls the CPU with the CPUID instruction.

No, If that were true then the poster wouldn't have a problem now would he?

>The ID then has to be checked with a list that comes with the OS,
>not the BIOS.

Nope, The processor contains 3 interesting pieces of information(for this discussion). CPU-ID Vendor string, CPU-ID Name string and CPU-ID Signature.

Generally Windows uses CPU-ID Vendor string directly, but uses CPU-ID Name string conditioned on whether the BIOS recognizes it.

>There's no database in the BIOS. o_O

Actually there is. The BIOS needs to recognize the CPU in order to update the microcode.

Go to any mainboard manufacturer and look at their BIOS updates. You will see statements like...

- Update CPU ID for Sempron(939) E6 1.8G/2.0G 59W CPUID=20FF2
- Update CPU ID for DualCore DT 2.2G & 2.4G

http://www.msi.com.tw/program/support/bios/bos/spt_bos_detail.php?UID=652&kind=1


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dab
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 00:43
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Great. Well, the bios said this :
Quote: "
CPU Type AMD ATHLON(tm) 64 Processor
CPU Speed 2200 MHZ
CPU L1 Cache Size 128 KB
CPU L2 Cache Size 512 KB
"

So, Windows tells you what your CPU is currently running at?


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 01:26
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2.2Ghz (or 2.19)...

You have an AMD!!! AMD's do NOT run at the "3500+" speed. Thats their "equivalent" speed. Like I said - Jiggery Pokery... JOGERY POKERY!!!

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TKF15H
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 02:59 Edited at: 30th Nov 2005 02:59
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Andy: "Update CPU ID."... what does that mean? CPUID queries the processor for info, which logicly is in the CPU... therefore nothing to do with the BIOS. It doesn't say on the site what exactly they're updating.

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dab
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 07:53 Edited at: 30th Nov 2005 07:54
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Quote: "2.2Ghz (or 2.19)...

You have an AMD!!! AMD's do NOT run at the "3500+" speed. Thats their "equivalent" speed. Like I said - Jiggery Pokery... JOGERY POKERY!!! "

Yah, I know it won't run at 3.5ghz. I knew it was supposed to run above 2 ghz I just wasn't sure what. So when I saw the 939 mhz, I was very confused.
I found out that the cpu changes depending on how much I use it. (If I use db, it runs full, if it is resting or using simple program, it is 900-ish mhz). So, I checked out the speed while it was "resting".


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dark coder
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 08:01
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socket 939 you read?


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Andy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 09:30
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>Andy: "Update CPU ID."... what does that mean?

In order to recognize the CPU to update the microcode, the BIOS must know the EXACT type of CPU. When you update the BIOS firmware, the new BIOS will have an updated list of CPU ID's.

>CPUID queries the processor for info, which logicly is in the
>CPU...

True!

>therefore nothing to do with the BIOS. It doesn't say on the
>site what exactly they're updating.

The CPU ID which is updated is the list in the BIOS. In order to correct Errors in the CPU, microcode is uploaded to the CPU at every boot. For this to work, the BIOS must know the exact type of CPU, this is where the CPU ID list in the BIOS comes in.


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dab
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 16:13
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Quote: "socket 939 you read?"


You're probably talking to me and, I'm not really sure..


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blanky
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Posted: 30th Nov 2005 22:06
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Yeah, like with my Athlon 64 3000+ here; It's actual speed is about 2GHz-ish, but Windows reports about 1GHz.

A bug somebody somewhere forgot to fix. Tkf15h is right about the CPUID instruction, btw.

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Andy
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Posted: 1st Dec 2005 10:26
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>A bug somebody somewhere forgot to fix. Tkf15h is right about the
>CPUID instruction, btw.

Sigh, if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see that noone is disagreeing with his explanation of the CPU_ID instruction.


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TKF15H
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Posted: 1st Dec 2005 14:04
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It's just that the way you say windows uses the Bios just doesn't fit in: Ok, lets say the BIOS has a database with info for each CPU out there (which is weird enough), it is used for executing CPU-debugging code. What would Windows have to do with it?

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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Dec 2005 16:38
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Quote: "No. Windows is set at the Intell calculations"


ah forget it, i'm not gonna jump into this argument.


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blanky
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Posted: 1st Dec 2005 16:52
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Quote: "Sigh, if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see that noone is disagreeing with his explanation of the CPU_ID instruction."


Hey, I did read the thread. I'm aware that nobody disagreed with him, but I was just backing him up...

...not like I'm going to spring some half-working emulator code of mine on him sometime, and try to get him to fix it or anything...

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Andy
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2005 12:03
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>It's just that the way you say windows uses the Bios just doesn't
>fit in:

It does fit in.

>Ok, lets say the BIOS has a database with info for each CPU out
>there (which is weird enough)

Why is it weird. If you make small errors to hardware there are only 2 ways to compensate for it. You can replace the hardware or make the hardware 'updateable' through software. Which do you think is cheaper?

http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium/fdiv/

How much money do you think Intel lost because of the FDIV bug?

And making the hardware updateable isn't even new. The Amiga had it as well. The OS would first look in an 'update' directory for system components and if it wasn't there it would be loaded from ROM. This meant that you could release a new series of amigas and then release updates to the hardware on disk. Apple also did this.

>it is used for executing CPU-debugging code. What would Windows
>have to do with it?

In the old days PC's were not running an OS with a unified driver architecture. They were running DOS with extenders where every game would include the drivers for each piece of hardware they supported. When the PC was first conceived, the BIOS handled system checks as well as system calls and access to hardware such as graphics and sound. Today the hardware is backwards compatible, which means that many of these issues are still present.


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dab
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2005 00:50
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wow, I didn't think I would learn soo much with asking what was wrong with my cpu.. Great!


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dre
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2005 19:28
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Well, do a little test to see if anything's wrong: get yourself something like 3D Mark and run a test...then, whenever you see the speed of your cpu be different from the time you took the test, run it again and compare the results...if there really is a speed change, you'd see it, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with the cpu.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 5th Dec 2005 00:44
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In the old days BIOSes were read-only (iirc).
And processors can't be so buggy nowadays that you require so many updates, can they? Yeah, I know about the FDIV bug, but I never heard of something of the sort repeating itself on the PC. And what does the FDIV bug have to do with the BIOS? It's not like a BIOS update can fix that kind of problem. The link you posted has information on getting the processor changed, not updating anything.
If the BIOS needs to be updated to correctly forward the CPU's information, then why would Windows rely on it, knowing it could be wrong?

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Andy
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Posted: 5th Dec 2005 10:14
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>In the old days BIOSes were read-only (iirc).

BIOS is generally in ROM, but it has always been used to communicate with peripherals such as graphics, sound and various controllers. It wasn't until the advent of VLB and PCI the bus startet to have it's own BIOS to route communication, add busmastering and so on. Later ACPI was added, but that's an entirely different discussion.

>And processors can't be so buggy nowadays that you require so many
>updates, can they?

No. However, if you look at the errata available from Intel and AMD, you can see a number of minor issues which are dealt with through updates to the microcode and future redesign of the chipset.

>Yeah, I know about the FDIV bug, but I never heard of something of
>the sort repeating itself on the PC. And what does the FDIV bug
>have to do with the BIOS?

Nothing, but the FDIV bug shows the value of being able to update the microcode. In order to do that, the CPU must know EXACTLY the type of CPU it has to deal with.

>It's not like a BIOS update can fix that kind of problem. The link
>you posted has information on getting the processor changed, not
>updating anything.

That is the whole point. Updating was not an option *SIGH*.

>If the BIOS needs to be updated to correctly forward the CPU's
>information, then why would Windows rely on it, knowing it could be
>wrong?

What else could Windows do? Using CPU_ID to identify a CPU would work if you had the CPU_ID signature and the CPU_ID name string had the speed setting in it. But what if the CPU was running at a different speed or if the CPU_ID name string didn't contain the frequency.

CPU's are generally not produced to match a certain speed, but rather to produce a certain yield from a certain amount of silicon. This means that depending on sales, the same CPU can theoretically be a AMD athlon 64 3500+ or an AMD athlon 64 4000+. The CPU clock(internal and external) is then set with resistors on the package depending on the need of the manufacturer.

This isn't always true. A production line can be set up to ONLY produce a certain model in which case the CPU speed can usually be read using CPUID.

Generally though, the CPU speed isn't 'hardwired' into the chip. Change the resistance and the BIOS(if able and Windows will report a different speed for the CPU.


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