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Geek Culture / £700 Apple ibook or £400 Windows Advent ?

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soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 03:23 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 03:52
Hi all,
I'm considering buying a laptop which will be used JUST for word processing and surfing the net. I have the choice of an apple ibook at £700 or an Advent laptop at £400.

Here's the apple:


And here's the Advent: (both put in code snippets because the page was stretched more than a mods patience on 'Team Request Day').


Normally I would go straight for the windows computer (because I use so much windows only software) but because I have a perfectly good desktop for when I have to use windows I'd really like to take the opportunity to buy an apple.

The problem is I can't really see any justification for the extra £300. All I can see is it being a little faster with a bit more RAM, and even that might be wrong, what with me being a bit of a cheese flap when it comes to computers. I have the money but I'd also like to think that I'd have £300 left to buy something else later.


So I'm asking anyone who's ever used an apple computer. Are they really worth the extra money or is it just because they're all white and shiny and make people jealous?


EDIT::
Just had a read of my post and I think I should explain
Quote: "will be used JUST for word processing and surfing the net"


The reason I'm buying a laptop is because I want to be able to pick it up and go to another rom if I can't concentrat on what I'm writing where I am, so it will mainly be used for word processing. The chances are however, there will be many a morning when I decide it's too cold to get out of bed and I'll just want to surf the net, so I will also use it to surf the net but probably not as much.
Although I am not buying it to play games, I will probably end up putting something on it to distract me when I'm meant to be doing something important.

So what I mean by
Quote: "will be used JUST for word processing and surfing the net"
is "I won't be doing anything that means spending money on extra software.

Another EDIT::
The above edit has made me think, if I don't spend any extra money (which I undoubtably would with a windows laptop) then maybe there isn't such a big difference in price. But going on the basis that I wouldn't spend any extra money on the Advent either, I suppose the original question still stands.


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indi
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 04:02 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 04:03
wait for apples range of laptops to change over to x86 models and gain the benefits of a dual boot windows xp / mac os x lappie.
dont buy into the g4 chip at this point in time until apple make the switch.
never buy before xmas, wait for jan when all the stores are hurting.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
DrewG
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 04:15
Oh Okay indi, that's very nice, now since his thread as been answered, are you now going to lock it???

Your signature has been erased by indi, because he is a hater of the Anti ANJL.
Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 04:19
Drew G, bugger off and stop bothering people. You're not a mod, and never will be.

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indi
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 04:20
are you like demented and dont know when to stop or something drew?

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 11:08
lol nice one indi

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DBAlex
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 16:37 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 16:40
How about the Mac Mini 1.42ghz? (The machine im writing this on...)

I have one, I use it for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Office OS X, and basically everything i can chuck at it...

And its still fast!

And i havent even upgraded the ram yet (512mb atm).

I would go with the mini, its also nearly silent, I bought one because i wanted a PowerPC mac, I cant be sure how good the new MacIntels really will be...

Good luck with whatever you buy though.

Edit: Oh, Laptop... Id go for the IBook, Or pick up a Titanium Powerbook cheap... Ebay maybe?

Edit2:
Quote: "wait for apples range of laptops to change over to x86 models and gain the benefits of a dual boot windows xp / mac os x lappie.
dont buy into the g4 chip at this point in time until apple make the switch.
never buy before xmas, wait for jan when all the stores are hurting."


I thought apple was sticking a DRM chip on the Intel so you can't do that?


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David R
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 16:49
DbAlex, do you reckon a mac mini would be any good as a 'media centre' type thing? I was thinking of buying one to plug into my widescreen telly, so I can play DVD's and music etc. (and I can transfer home videos from my main PC on a solid state media like my portable HD instead of DVD's, which my writer mucks up quite badly) do you reckon it be any good for that kind of thing?

(Also, does your model have a video-out ?)

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DBAlex
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 17:12
Umm, The mac mini is good as a media center (well i think..) Youd have to try and get a hacked version of Frontrow for it (The home entertainment software used on the new imac) If i wanted a media center PC for the living room though, id build a cheap PC that runs MythTV (Linux distro for media centers)... also research the mini and apple before you buy one... I did like 3 months research.

Oh and mine doesnt have a video out (unless you class the DVI as video out?

Maybe you could get a DVI to S-Video adapter? Or something like that.

Anyway, im happy with the mini, but OSX is pretty annoying... Not bad once you get used to its quirks tho.




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soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 17:14 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 17:15
*Ignores a completely pointless post that happens to have appeared, possibly due to an outbreak of verbal diarrhoea*

@DBAlex
Thanks for the recommendation but remembering that I'll be using it mainly for word processing, I'm not too concerned about being able to use apps that require mucho memory.

@indi
But wouldn't they be more expensive still? Or are you suggesting I wait because when they're released the ibook will be cheaper?

EDIT::
Quote: "OSX is pretty annoying"


How so?


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DBAlex
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 17:22 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 17:24
Heh, You think OSX is the most stable operating system ever right?

Well, Ive seen the grey screen that tells you to restart A LOT!

Sometimes if i just leave the mini on for 3 or more hours when I wake it up from its sleep state, the grey screen pops up and i have to restart...

Also it will just appear when I remove my modem! and ive disconnected from the internet!

Also the dock can be annoying, its hard to tell which apps are open or not... You have to minimize an app to make it go to the dock... unlike windows and linux where its there all the time its open...

Also the Maximize button (green) isnt really a maximize button... its a "fit to content" button, so you have to manually position windows and drag them out to make them fullscreen.

Also my keyboard isnt recognized propely... For example the hash key gives me a backslash : / . . . And ive tried configuring it a lot!

(Phew, a lot of also's . . .)

Other than that its "ok"...

I would prefer it if apple let you choose whether you wanted a dock or a taskbar though, im still looking for a decent taskbar (If one even exists)

EDIT: also, when you click to close an app you havent actually closed it... you have to click manually at the apple bar at the top... so to close firefox you have to close the firefox window and then choose "Firefox->Quit Firefox"

Just kinda annoying when your used to windows/linux


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soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 19:21 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 19:22
Thanks for the input DBAlex, I'll have a look around the net and see if those are common complaints. Maybe I'd be better off with the Advent running Linux, I could always buy a can of white spray-paint.


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the_winch
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 20:03
Quote: "Also my keyboard isnt recognized propely... For example the hash key gives me a backslash : / . . . And ive tried configuring it a lot!"


http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2005/11/20/using_a_british.php

Quote: "EDIT: also, when you click to close an app you havent actually closed it... you have to click manually at the apple bar at the top... so to close firefox you have to close the firefox window and then choose "Firefox->Quit Firefox""


Or you could just use Cmd-Q.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 20:47
I suppose all OS's have their negative points, it's just a matter of finding one with you can get along with.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 22:47
I have an iBook for exactly the purposes you want yours for and its great. Its so nice to have an all-in-one solution in terms of everything I want being in the machine. It could sometimes benifit with 1Gb RAM rather than the 512MB it comes with, but thats with me having Dreamweaver 2004MX, iTunes, FireFox 1.5 and loads of other stuff open and switching apps a lot.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 10:03 Edited at: 12th Dec 2005 10:04
Quote: "eh, You think OSX is the most stable operating system ever right?Well, Ive seen the grey screen that tells you to restart A LOT!"


I'd get your Mini replaced then, my G5 iMac works perfectly and even on the odd chances that I've managed to crash Finder, you can still restart it easily. From the Terminal, you can do anything (unlike Windows when Explorer dies)

Quote: "Also the dock can be annoying, its hard to tell which apps are open or not... You have to minimize an app to make it go to the dock... unlike windows and linux where its there all the time its open..."


Huh? It's obvious which apps are open - they've got a little arrow under the icon. If they aren't on the dock in when started, they're added to the right-hand side. Running apps are ALWAYS on the dock, whether they are on-screen or not, and always on cmd-tab.

Then of course there is the F9 key which is the fastest way possible to select which 'app window' you want to use, I don't think I could live without it now. F10 for singling out just that applications window, F11 to get to your icons.. ahhhh, Expose bliss!

The best thing about OSX is that the apps are not all stuck within the one window per application.

Quote: "Also the Maximize button (green) isnt really a maximize button... its a "fit to content" button, so you have to manually position windows and drag them out to make them fullscreen."


The green control is not called 'Maximise', so don't expect it to work like that. It's called Zoom - as-in zoom to fit window contents, which it does just fine, and is a complete god-send in Photoshop.

Quote: "Also my keyboard isnt recognized propely... For example the hash key gives me a backslash : / . . . And ive tried configuring it a lot!"


There is no hash key on a Mac keyboard. Alt-3 is the hash symbol.

Quote: "EDIT: also, when you click to close an app you havent actually closed it... you have to click manually at the apple bar at the top... so to close firefox you have to close the firefox window and then choose "Firefox->Quit Firefox""


That's because the close button doesn't close the application, and was never intended to. It's not called 'Close app', it's 'Close Window'.

It just sounds to me like you're really not used to the way in which Macs work at all. Get over the 'everything runs inside a window' mantra from the MS world, it doesn't apply here. You're now dealing with a proper OS, one which Vista is stealing heavily from (thank goodness)

This was typed out on my iMac G5 (upgraded to 1GB).

soapy - here are some differet views for you:

If you've used a PC for years (Windows, not Linux) then trust me, it will come as quite a shock when you move to OS X. Everything will feel 'strange' and 'in the wrong place' at first. It takes time to get used to. I honestly reckon it took me a good three weeks of solid every day use to feel comfortable on my Mac and understand what was really going on, and even now I keep finding loads of little extras.

But now I never even turn my PC on unless it's to check a forum game or something. Every piece of work I do, every graphic I create, is all on my Mac. They are Internet developers dream machines to be honest, especially as they run from a BSD core, networking is just built into them perfectly - connect to a webdav server for example, add it to your keychain and treat it like any other folder / drive (without the need for 3rd party software). Open Terminal and voila.. you can ssh directly into a remote server. Apache and PHP come installed by default (perfect for me, although I had to upgrade the version of PHP on here).

Spotlight is incredible and can find pretty much anything! From digital camera photograph comments (embedded in the images themselves) to email content, to Word documents - it can search the lot, and does it instantly. Custom saves can be stored as well (for projects for example).

I love Smart Folders, I love the Dashboard and have a range of cool widgets on it including a neat calculator, calendar, iTunes controller, Dilbert strip of the day, BBC radio widget, latin (lorem ipsum) generator, php document search, dictionary search, etc! You can get loads of nice (and loads of useless!) dashboard widgets and they can really save some time - whack F12 and they all appear.

PDFs which are clunky horrible things on the PC (thanks to the piss poor PDF viewer available) are just a native Mac file format. Heck even screen grabs save out in PDF format! They open in an instant, and virtually all apps support them. OSX has loads built-in that takes third party apps on Windows to gain - screen grabbing for example is just a keyboard short-cut away (partial grabbing, window grabbing, full screen, etc).

There is a sense of unity between Mac applications which you don't get on the PC. iCal can notify you of appointments via Apple Mail, loads of apps can access your images stored in iPhoto - which is a superb program in its own right, and I totally love their print ordering service! Photoshop is a dream to behold and I'm quite sure is why the Mac is even still around!

I wish I could have got one of the new iMacs to be honest, with the built-in iSight and faster processor, but never mind! The way OS X works will totally throw you off to start with, and when you click around and expect it to react like Windows and it doesn't, you'll think 'huh?!', but the longer you use it, the more you realise why it works the way it does. If your Powerbook is really just for word processing then you may never use your Mac enough to appreciate it fully, which would be a shame.

Other than for testing games / TGC products, I don't really intend to turn my PC back on or upgrade it until Vista is released.

Cheers,

Rich

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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 13:58
Quote: " Heh, You think OSX is the most stable operating system ever right?

Well, Ive seen the grey screen that tells you to restart A LOT!"


Didn't even know Mac had a screen like that. Mine runs for weeks on end without a problem.

Quote: "Heck even screen grabs save out in PDF format!"

i hate that! why in the heck would you want an image as a pdf? i changed mine to make png instead.

I too have a good desktop system with Windows. When I looked into a laptop, I got an Apple 17" powerbook. (obviously a bit more $$$ than you want to spend) A Lot of my friends were getting G4 towers and another got an iBook just before I got mine. I got a powerbook because I already had a windows system and wanted something new to try.

I wish I waited another 4 months and got one of the newer powerbooks. Better screens, faster hdd and memory (i think), not to mention $300 cheaper.

Between the 2 laptops you linked to above, I'd go with the Advent. Huge price difference and bigger screen. (12" is just way to small for me to even consider) The apple does have twice the memory and a much better processor than a celeron. And I'm guessing the 64mb video card on the Advent probably uses shared memory with the system.
But if you can afford it, go for the 14" iBook. 20gb more hdd space and a dvd burner.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 15:20
I'm gonna backup that stability statement - they're RIDICULOUSLY stable! Since I've had mine, I've restarted it about 2 times (had it since october). I just leave it in standby in my rucksack - might show it the mains power once every week or two... All I need to do is open the lid and I'm away! Try leaving windows running for anything more than a few days and you'll notice it dying (noramlly a few hours does the trick). Only once has something crashed, and that was an early beta of Firefox 1.5... and even then, I think it was some dodgy use of javascript somewhere that caused it!

The only thing I dont like about MacOSX is that I cant run some of my favourite apps on it, for example, I SWEAR by UltraEdit as a text editor. Its simply the best imho. But MacOSX doesn't have it and I cant find a cheap/free alternative. Other little things like iTunes. Its a nice program - but I dont want a huge app like iTunes sitting there eating up Mb's of precious RAM - all I want is WinAmp for the Mac! I want something to sit in the corner and play my music. Searching would be nice, but it makes no difference as I know where I keep all my songs anyway (helps to be organised )

Like Rich said - it takes some getting used to. Thing is - once you have got used to it, you suddenly start to notice how stupid a lot of the stuff in windows is, or at best, how lacking windows is. Things like the option to shrink and tile all the open windows so you can easily find the one you want, thats pure genius!! I love the task bar too - gimmicks like "zoommy" icons when you mouse-over them - its just a very convinient way of storing stuff like that! Its a quickbar and start bar all in one. I might look into getting a KVM switch so I can hookup my PC & Mac to my TFT + Keyboard + Mouse. It'd be nice to run it in more than 1024x768 which is the limit of my iBook - but thats MORE than enough to use word and Excel, especially if you're getting used to MacOS.

Also - the battery life on the iBook is superb. Lasts forever! It also has a little button on the bottom so you can check the power of the battery without having to boot into OS. Simple and effective

Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 15:48
Quote: "The only thing I dont like about MacOSX is that I cant run some of my favourite apps on it, for example, I SWEAR by UltraEdit as a text editor. Its simply the best imho. But MacOSX doesn't have it and I cant find a cheap/free alternative. Other little things like iTunes. Its a nice program - but I dont want a huge app like iTunes sitting there eating up Mb's of precious RAM - all I want is WinAmp for the Mac! I want something to sit in the corner and play my music. Searching would be nice, but it makes no difference as I know where I keep all my songs anyway (helps to be organised )"


For text editing I use Text Wrangler for nearly everything, it's very nice indeed. And BBEdit 8 (although expensive) is pretty damn hot for code and PHP work outside of Zend Studio.

I keep iTunes running all the time, but I'm not on a Powerbook so I can see why you'd not want it there. You can install XWindows and then run xmms, which is the Linux version of Winamp effectively, lean mean and skinable!

I always thought the Mac had quite some software drought, but that is quite far from the truth. I now wish that Windows had some of the Mac programs I use daily - especially Adium! That is just the dogs hairy bits for a multi-IM chat client. Utterly superb.

I like Interarchy too, and NaviCat, and Safari.. yadda yadda

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JoelJ
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 17:00
I've started to notice the MAC Applications that I would really want to use on my wnidows machine. same with Linux. But when I went through my last Linux phase I noticed only a few programs that I missed, (DBP and visual studio come to mind), and then I also wanted to be able to play Half Life

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 18:11
For the Mac users - can you list your top ten freeware/"sub £300" applications? I dont mind forking out about £30 for a text editor, just as long as its good. I used Ultraedit for ages on its trial (when it was a 60day trial) and got to the point where I didn't like to use anything else. I'll look into Text Wrangler. Does BBEdit come with a trial? I primarly use my laptop for website/PHP work anyway, so thats an important feature...

Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 18:21
Quote: "I dont mind forking out about £30 for a text editor, just as long as its good"

What's wrong with SimpleText? Too simple for you?

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DBAlex
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 18:29
Quote: "For the Mac users - can you list your top ten freeware/"sub £300" applications? I dont mind forking out about £30 for a text editor, just as long as its good. I used Ultraedit for ages on its trial (when it was a 60day trial) and got to the point where I didn't like to use anything else. I'll look into Text Wrangler. Does BBEdit come with a trial? I primarly use my laptop for website/PHP work anyway, so thats an important feature..."


Why dont you just install X11 and Fink?

Then you can just use "sudo apt-get install packagehere" and install packages easily... you can any linux software (well, that are available from the Fink repositories)

Quote: "Like Rich said - it takes some getting used to. Thing is - once you have got used to it, you suddenly start to notice how stupid a lot of the stuff in windows is, or at best, how lacking windows is. Things like the option to shrink and tile all the open windows so you can easily find the one you want, thats pure genius!! I love the task bar too - gimmicks like "zoommy" icons when you mouse-over them - its just a very convinient way of storing stuff like that! Its a quickbar and start bar all in one. I might look into getting a KVM switch so I can hookup my PC & Mac to my TFT + Keyboard + Mouse. It'd be nice to run it in more than 1024x768 which is the limit of my iBook - but thats MORE than enough to use word and Excel, especially if you're getting used to MacOS."


I have a KVM, its good, but my PS2 to USB converter doesnt work with the mini! so i actually have 2 mice connected (The KVM is a PS2 one) I reccomend you get a USB one if your getting one...

Quote: "It just sounds to me like you're really not used to the way in which Macs work at all. Get over the 'everything runs inside a window' mantra from the MS world, it doesn't apply here. You're now dealing with a proper OS, one which Vista is stealing heavily from (thank goodness)
"


Heh, Probably true, I do try to switch it on for any graphics I do, Ive installed Dreamweaver on it but I still tend to use the windows version ... I dont think im used to mac properly yet, probably need to use it more like you say...


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 19:27
My 10 favourite apps (some free, some cost) - and bear in mind what work I do, so these are quite specific:

Text Wrangler - it's like a free version of BBEdit
iLife - (Mail, iPhoto and iMovie specifically)
Interarchy - FTP/Webdav/etc app
Adium - the best IM client ever
Chmox - view Windows CHM files on a Mac
iClip - like the worlds more glorified clipboard ever
I used to use MPlayer, but you can get a WMV and DivX codec for QT now
Navicat - MySQL manager
svnX - Subversion tool
Roxio Toast - CD burning / mounting / etc
MacMAME - heh

Then of course the more expensive but vital apps like Photoshop and Zend Studio. Oh I have BlitzMax installed too

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DBAlex
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 19:33
Quote: "Then of course the more expensive but vital apps like Photoshop and Zend Studio. Oh I have BlitzMax installed too
"


Haha, I was thinking of installing it... Ill admit ive used it on windows a bit...

*hides*

Good app choices... Im still new to mac so im only using the windows apps ported to mac Ill try some of those though... One thing i use a lot is XMMS under X11, Dunno why Winamp doesnt just get ported... (Unless it did?)


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Dec 2005 19:51
I've never downloaded the Windows version of it (not interested), but wanted to see what the Mac version was like - and with the extra $25 MaxGUI it's quite cool really. IDE is a bit flakey though, and the Help files are slim to say the least (people rightly moan about DBPros help files, but believe me the bmax ones are not that much better when it comes to sample code or explanations)

Some other fun little Mac apps I enjoy:

CandyBar (replace the sexy icons with even sexier ones!)
The Dilbert and APOD widgets
The 3D album artwork plugin thing for iTunes

Oh and Automator! Totally rocks.

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indi
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 06:35 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 06:39
there are vesions of winamp for mac as rich mentioned but a few stages behind.

theres a $10 program that makes your desktop play screensavers while you work,
adding marine aquarium 2 to this program just plain ROCKS!
theres a free pc version of something similar as well that does this.

if you own an mac activate quartz extreme and google what i just said to see if your card is worthwhile activating it. in some cases a 266% increase in speed can occur as QE makes every window on your screen handled by the GPU instead of CPU.

Xcode2 must be installed for it IIRC.

get konfabulator if your using windows, its where apple basically pinched the idea for widgets, however widgets of this kind have been around in unix window dressing for a very long time so the author is trying to have a whinge i think, he made a comic strip just for that reason to explain it.

konfabulator also works for people who cant get 10.4.2 in OSX land.

its great to have widgets and konfabulator.


ClamXav is the only virus checker i know of thats free in OSX, grab a copy before someone creates something that might slip through.

Darwine is a project your probably aware of, has teamed up with Codeweavers, so expect the x86 port of this application to come on board really fast in the future.

dont forget versiontracker.com is a great mac version backup site.

creating a slimline gaming account does improve speed a little if your a mac gamer.

rich what do you think of cocoaMysql for osx.?

rich have you tried "Fire" for Osx as an IM client?

X11 is a breeze to install but sometimes fink might give you troubles if you dont get the correct version.

x11 opens pandoras box for linux yummies distros, its the door also for Open Office, and nmap<--cool!

im trying to get Xgrid to work on a few g4s and a g5 but its early days and limited time.



btw macminis have no microphone so you have to use a firewire or usb variant



If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself &#63743;
Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 14:33 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 14:35
Quote: "rich what do you think of cocoaMysql for osx.?
rich have you tried "Fire" for Osx as an IM client?"


I used to use Fire all the time (because it was so much better than MSN Messenger OSX) but since I found Adium I have uninstalled Fire (and MSN!) Adium is the best IM client I've ever seen, I love it.

Not tried cocoaMysql - I did see it while doing the rounds for a MySQL gui but decided to lay down some cash for Navicat instead, mostly because it offered ssh tunneling which I need for the TGC servers

Will search for that Quartz Extreme thing now! Does it just have a similar name to Quartz, that program they used to make all the gorgeous screen savers and the like in Tiger?

Edit: hmm it just appears to be a name for the way OSX blends 2D and 3D together - or did I miss something? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/quartzextreme/

Cheers,

Rich

Exit Planet Dust
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 14:44 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 14:47
quartz extreme rundown

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/quartzextreme/

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/14

here is some benchmarks
http://macspeedzone.com/html/software/02/10-1-vs-10.2.shtml


how to activate QE 2d

in the Developer folder (provided you have installed xcode2)
in the applications folder
in the Performance Tools folder
there is an application called quartz debug
in the tools pulldown menu, activate and restart any open application for it to take effect.

there are also command line versions which keep it activated all the time etc..

and check out the features that program has, the weird one is the user interface resolution
a desktop higher then 72 dpi, could be great for printwork,trippy.

btw

im going to try the mysql free administrator woot! cocoaMsql was good but still not enough.

http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/administrator/index.html

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself &#63743;

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