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Geek Culture / Weird copyright question...

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David R
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 13:37
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I just came across this scenario on the net, and wondered what the implications for copyright, and how exactly copyright protects against this:

Quote: "
Mr A has a legally downloaded music track on his computer. It is not protected by rights protection technology of any sort.

He decides he wants to share the music illegally with his friends. But that would be naughty; he'd get sued by some nasty lawyers and the RIAA.

So he's smart. He gets a generic music editing program, and reverses the piece of music - so the song is now backwards. He saves it, and uploads it to some generic peer-to-peer thing.

He names the music 'Track that sounds like [some generic song] backwards.mp3'

Now tell me. Does copyright law protect against tracks that are stored backward? I mean, essentially, its the same set of digital signals, but stored in reverse order. In theory, another totally legal file somewhere else in the world (e.g. an IRC client of some kind) may equate to the same load of 0's and 1's that the backward track does.

As far as I know, copyright for music would only protect such a case if it sounds remotely like the original song. Backward tracks don't - and could simply be un-reversed by the downloader

Does copyright protect against this?
"


Interesting question. Any ideas?

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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dark coder
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 14:19
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so ill just hold the game case upsideodwn, and walk out of the store? freaking amazing idea!


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Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 11th Dec 2005 14:22 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 14:25
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Illegal. It is still possible to convert it back to the original perfectly. Therefore, it has not been changed, it has been encoded. You could achieve the same effect by zipping it up or encrypting it.

It would be the same if I took a book someone wrote and reversed it and claimed ownership. I'll call it "It reminds me of Harry Potter but it's not because it's backwards". Anyone could successfully retrieve the information.

And, if there are any questions, anything anyone makes is automatically copyrighted, whether or not you submit it. Registering the copyright gives you legal precendent, though. Someone can sue just for stealing an idea and incorporating it into their own work. Slightly modifying it would not protect anyone if it went to court.

It's a dumb idea from some kid trying to work the system, but doesn't really understand the system.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
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David R
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 14:24 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 14:27
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Quote: "so ill just hold the game case upsideodwn, and walk out of the store? freaking amazing idea!
"


I don't think you quite understood the point. Reversing a song means the data set is totally different, and isn't really the same as the original version.

For instance, if copyright did explicitly protect against (which according to Cash it does) anything that you had on your PC, that was similar or indeed the same as the data set of some copyrighted file (reversed), you'd get jailed or sued

Quote: "It would be the same if I took a book someone wrote and reversed it and claimed ownership. I'll call it "It reminds me of Harry Potter but it's not because it's backwards". Anyone could successfully retrieve the information."


So anything even mildly similar to another dataset, even if the other way round, could be classed as illegal! That's ridiculous I must say

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 14:36
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Not if it's your intellectual material. Imagine how you'd feel if something you created got ripped off.

What if you wrote a DBP RPG that took two years, your dream game, and somehow some noob stole the code and posted it as his own. And *OH NO* he reversed the order of the functions and subs in the programs. That would sure suck, just that you had to fight that lame battle. I would take something like that very personal.

And BTW, dark coder DID understand your point. He was just being sarcastic, basically to the effect that it was dumb and illegal. Read between the lines.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 15:22
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It is illegal based on intent.

EZrotate!
TextureMax!
EZactor!
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 15:25
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Hehehe...

A reversed RPG...


The cat era has begun.
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re faze
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 16:13
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or embedded within a bitmap?

that's kinda doing a lot of work, why not just buy the cd, or buy the track from yahoo?

hey, even I need someone to talk to about my troubles...
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Kohaku
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 16:58 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 17:11
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But the plot thickens. Mr A, known as little Timmy here on, needs to get this track by christmas, and he is very poor. Little Timmys family are going to die from a virus that makes their immune system kill their lungs. It is their death wish to hear the track, known as "let it snow.mp3". Poor little Timmy.


You are not alone.
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Evil stick
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 17:08
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Quote: "Read between the lines."


I agree.

Now the bitmap thing.....


FORUM n00b THREAT LEVEL: ORANGE
Some thread revival/spam-Some bad grammar used, stupid questions or answers-No direct flaming
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David R
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 17:28 Edited at: 11th Dec 2005 17:29
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Quote: "or embedded within a bitmap?

that's kinda doing a lot of work, why not just buy the cd, or buy the track from yahoo?
"

What part of this post did I say actually I was going to try and do this? I think its the stupidest idea since christmas under the ocean, but I wanted to know how exactly copyright protects aginast such a thing (turns out to be under 'encoding')

Quote: "Read between the lines."

I know that dark coder was being sarcastic, but he went such a length to be funny, he skewed my question totally out of context to. So I decided to elaborate

Quote: "But the plot thickens. Mr A, known as little Timmy here on, needs to get this track by christmas, and he is very poor. Little Timmys family are going to die from a virus that makes their immune system kill their lungs. It is their death wish to hear the track, known as "let it snow.mp3". Poor little Timmy.
"

What can I say?


Quote: "Now the bitmap thing....."

If wolf is right, that'd also be illegal based on intent

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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Perokreco
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 18:52
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It would be same if you took a book and changed few sentences. Its illegal
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