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Geek Culture / Internet Download speeds?

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dab
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 00:13
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Hey, my stepdad's computer connects to the internet (according to Windows) at 100 megabytes a second. IT only downloads around 40 to 60 kilobytes a second. He said he is supposed to download at 512 kilobytes a second. So what I'm asking is, what is your download speed supposed to be? I know it depends on the speed of the server, and other traffic, but we're the only ones on our streets (there's 4 of them) with dsl... Hmm, anybody know what's wrong?


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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 00:52
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The 100mbps is the connection from his computer to his router, so his compo can talk to his router/cable modem at 100mbps. The connection from his router to the internet is 512kbps. That's not kiloBYTES its kiloBITS. A byte is made up of 8 bits. 512/8 = 64 kilobytes/second. 40-60kb is therefore about right. He's getting the right speed.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 00:54
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I accidently posted with a very old account which has newbie status; ignore the double post.

Firstly you don't have an 100 MB/s connection you have a 100 Mb/s connection. Mb being a Megabit, which is 10^6 or 1000000 bits per second.

One bit is an eigth of a bye, so your download speed is:

1000000/8 = 125000 Bytes

125000/1024 = 122 (ish) KB/s

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Chris K
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:03
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My internet downloads at 1.5 to 2 Megabytes a second sometimes (though most websites aren't that fast - only really Microsoft.com)

And I get it free.

But that's just because I'm supercool.

But seriously what type of connection must that be? I don't actually know because I get it through a network.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:06
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uhh, i don't belive so...
I have a 512 Kilo BYTE connection, my download speeds vary, toping at 492 some times. Downloading from certain servers causes your speed to be slower. Routers operate in BITS, the internet operates in BYTES and internet connection are still BYTES.

Also, Killswitch your math is wrong.
100/8 = 12.5 MegaBytes per second.

1048576 (not 1 million) is 1 megabyte, not 100 megabytes.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:13 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:14
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Ha! Don't you feel silly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabit

Quote: "The megabit is most commonly used when referring to data transfer rates in internet and network speeds, e.g. a 100 Mbit/s Fast Ethernet connection. In this context, like elsewhere in telecommunications, it always equals 10^6."


Mug.

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dab
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:22
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So basically, the speeds my stepdad gets are what he should be getting?


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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:24 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:25
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Well, not nessacarily. You haven't actually told us the speed of his internet connection, you've told us the speed of the connection ethernet connection to, or through, your router.

But I somehow doubt your connection is any slower than its meant to be.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:27 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:31
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Nope... just did a test, Downloaded a 2600kb file in ten seconds, if I had a KiloBIT internet connection, that wouldn't be possible (it downloaded at 260kb/s) As it is 4 time greater then it.

And i did say network connections use BIT, well I said router... Stop confusing me.

Why are you telling me I feel silly? I didn't say that a 100mb/s connection is 122k-bits/s.


Yes he did, 512 (same as me) read his first post.

Also, wiki is made by other people... I am going to fix that megaBIT thingy.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:29
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No one said a 100 Mb/s connection is a 122k-bits/s connection. I said, correctly, that a 100 Megabit/s connection is equal to a 122 (ish) Kilobyte/s connection.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:42
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Check your math. I think you'll find it off, by a factor of... 100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabit
And Read This.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:44 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:44
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Please explain how my - correct - math is wrong.

Great job on editing that page to make it support your view better - you're a real man.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:47 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:48
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1048576 is 1 megabyte (you defined it as 10000, which is incorrect) 104857800 is 100 megabytes (you defined it as 1 million, which is incorrect)

And I merly corrected what another screwed up. Did you read that article on the guy who was named for a murder on wikopedia? You can't trust the site. I trust my books.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:51 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 01:54
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No, I never defined a megabyte to be anything.

I defined a megaBIT to be 1000000 bits not 10000 (which you can see as none of my posts, barring the one before this - which didn't even include any numbers, has been edited.

Edit:

Although I'm not wrong about the deffintion of a megabit I am wrong in the calculation of the connection speed.

Nuts.

That was a (fun) waste of half an hour.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:56 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 02:00
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Quote: "
One bit is an eigth of a bye, so your download speed is:

1000000/8 = 125000 Bytes

125000/1024 = 122 (ish) KB/s"


your saying that the 1000000 is 100Mb. It is not.

And the MegaBIT is STILL 1048576 not 1 million. That is an old DECIMAL definition which has long been shed. We are using BINARY. Look at the bloody chart.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 01:57
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Dude a megabit is 10^6 bits. A megbyte is 1024^2 bytes. They're different measurements.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:05
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Dude read the material. Computers use BIANARY, mebi was the bianary unit, but has been abandoned, now we use Mega.
But still, 10^6 is a million, you NEED 100 Million to make 100Megabits

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:09
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No mebi was invented after the binary notations as some anal retentive guys thought it would confuse people - in the context of connection speeds the 10^6 version is correct. I have a 2 Mb/s broadband connection. If it were a 2*(1024^1024) byte connection I'd be able to download things at 2 MEGABYTES a second. But I don't/ I download things at about 200 KILOBYTES a second at my max. That's because connection speeds are measured in megabits which equal 10^6!

Mebi has been invented to avoid all of this confusion!

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:09
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1 Megabit = 131,072 bytes
1 Megabit = 128 KB (kilobytes)
2 Megabits = 256 KB (kilobytes)

This is simple math guys.

A 100 Mb ethernet port has a mathmatical limit of 12,800 KB per second thru-put. That's 12.5MB per second - or a 600MB CD in 48 seconds. Of course it will never achieve this due to the way networks operate, but we're talking math here.

The 100 Mb connection reported by Windows is that from your PC to the router. The upstream connection on DSL cannot be this fast, it's far more likely to be either a 512, 1 or 2 Megabit connection. Maximum possible speeds for each:

512 = 64 KB/s
1 Megabit = 128 KB/s
2 Megabit = 256 KB/s

(Using binary assumptions for rounding)

If as he said he has a 512 connection, then you're looking at an absolute maximum of 64 KB per second downstream. This of course doesn't take into consideration any of the packets required for the network negotiation, it's just a math limit.

However there are other factors influencing the perceived download speed, including the files contents.

As usual Google knows the answer to this one - just type the following into its search box:

'how many kilobytes in 2 megabits?'
'how many bits in a megabit?'
'how many megabytes in 2 megabits?'

etc etc etc

Google calculator rocks

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:17 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 02:22
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THANK YOU RICH

But How can internet download speeds STILL be in bits if I have a 512kb/s connection, yet can download a 2.6mb file in 10 seconds? That is 4 times greater then it should be. So it makes more sense that somewhere along the lines, they went to bytes with download speeds. Unless the math allows MASSIVE increases, I'm okay with that.

Or mabey I have no clue what the hell my connection speed really is...

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:19
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I can also use google:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci212541,00.html

I'm beginning to see the advantage of the mebi prefix!

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dark coder
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:20
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well when the download file thing pops up doesnt it start downloding it then? cause when i click on save or whatever the bar jusually jumps to about 10% inititally then continues on, i have a 10mb connection and the most ive got is around 990kb/s but from a ie download box 400kb/s

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:24
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That is an IE bug, IE downloads some of the file before calculating the speeds, like while you are selecting a save path. Thanx to whoever told me that.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:47
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IE starts downloading the file immediately - before you've even set the save location, which gives it a sort of headstart while you're faffing around with directories and the like. I wouldn't call it a bug, it's more a design feature (and quite a sensible one if you think about it)

Quote: "But How can internet download speeds STILL be in bits if I have a 512kb/s connection, yet can download a 2.6mb file in 10 seconds? That is 4 times greater then it should be. So it makes more sense that somewhere along the lines, they went to bytes with download speeds. Unless the math allows MASSIVE increases, I'm okay with that."


Maybe you're not actually rate-capped? On a 512 kbps connection, with a 2.6MB file (so we'll call that 2,662.4 KB) it could download in 41.6 seconds not including packet handling. It used to be that ASCII files downloaded faster than binary, but not any longer (unless you're still on a modem!) so I'd say that your 512 'limit' isn't a limit at all.

Cheers,

Rich

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dab
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 08:12
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So, uh the little computer icon in his task tray, the one for the internet. When you mouse over it, it says:

Centurytel Connection (Home)
Speed: 100 Mbps
Status: Connected

So what would you say the downloading speed should be?


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dark coder
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 10:04
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thats your lan speed which shouldent effect your download speed unless you have some incredibly expensive oc line

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Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 11:24
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the download speed is the speed of the modem (ie: 512kbits/sec), the 100Mbps is the maximum speed the information can go down the wire between the PC and the modem, after the modem, the speed is whatever your phone line can manage, that will be something like 512Kbits or 1024kbits, up to about 8Kbits etc, if your modem also acts as a hub then you could plug other computers into it and they all could swap information between themselves at 100Mbps, but when you use the internet you are limited by how fast the modem can go on a normal telephone line, the speed in the connection icon is just the max speed for the connection to your modem, it has nothing to do with how fast the modems connection to the server actualy is, 40-60kbytes is about right, the download tool shows the amount of data being transfered per second, thats different from the amount of bits per second your connection can manage, if you time your download then you can see how it divides bits into the amount of data you get, it`s always the same ratio unless the line has a bad connection.



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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 12:18
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Wow. Good job Rich stepped in and actually spoke a few words of sense. Flames about bits and byte could only start on a programming forum.

@dabip - Yep, based on the info you gave us, that's spot on. He has the same Internet connection setup as me.

Btw, in answer to a few of the posts above:

Mbps is Megabits
Mb/s is Megabytes

If you think you have a 512KiloBYTE connection, you've actually got a 4Mbps connection ... which is pretty fast for a home connection. Good stuff.

Megabits/kilobits/bits are used to measure all data transfer speeds across all networking devices (modems, lans, internet etc). Bytes are not used to describe a connection speed. Bytes may well be displayed in applications though (such as IE) as this makes more sense to us.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 13:27
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MB/s


Quote: "A megabit per second (Mbps or Mbit/s) is a unit of data transmission equal to 1,000 kilobits per second or 1,000,000 bits per second. The bandwidth of consumer broadband internet services are often rated in Mbit/s."


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David T
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 13:50
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Wikipedia isn't always right.

I was sure also that everything was measured in powers of two - i.e. 1024kb in a mb, 1024kbytes in a mbyte etc - I've never used the power of ten thing.

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David R
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 13:52 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 13:53
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Quote: "Of course it will never achieve this due to the way networks operate, but we're talking math here."


'Where there's a will there's a way'

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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Fallout
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Quote: "Wikipedia isn't always right."


You got that right! That's the reason why Wikipedia is an absolute no-no when looking for references for degree level work. It's great for general knowledge, but it is not 100% accurate.

I'm much more inclined to believe what I learnt on my networking degree from industry experts than a few paragraphs on Wikipedia.

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Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 15:17
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Amen to that!, theres an actual valid technical reason for the powers of two system, despite what the idiots who came up with alternative methodologies think, using powers of 2 makes more sense, especialy at a hardware/programming level, 8 bits point to 256 locations for a reason (cos 8 bits=256 values), and since base ten doesnt convert to the computers internal base 2 properly they are just being stupid, a memory key for example has a capacity of 256mb (base2) NOT 250mb (base 10), are manufactures supposed to discard those extra 6mb and have 6mb gaps in the memory maps every 250mb or something? , purleeese , they use powers of 2 cos thats how things work internaly in digital circuits, it`s not a matter of how pretty some loons alternative system looks, its if it`s actualy any bloody use , and base ten for digital(binary) memory locations isn`t



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David R
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 15:19
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Isn't it just powers of 2 because it fits with how binary works?

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:26 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 16:27
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Look, I'm not stupid. I know that powers of two are used in a computing context most of the time - but in the context of telecommunications a megabit is 10^6 bits.

If you don't believe wikipedia:

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/megabit.html

Quote: "(2) When used to described data transfer rates, it refers to one million bits. Networks are often measured in megabits per second, abbreviated as Mbps. "


http://www.e-consultancy.com/knowledge/glossary/297/megabit.html

Quote: "One megabit is 1,000 Kilobits, or 1,000,000 bits. While Mega usually means 1024 in computer terminology (due to computer storage being based on a binary number system), in data communications decimal notation is used. "


http://www.colorado.gov/dpa/doit/mnt/overview/glossary.html

Quote: "Megabit – a measure of data transmission speed – 1,000,000 bits per second or approximately 125,000 characters per second."


Any more disbelivers?

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David R
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:37 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 16:42
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Wait a second...
Quote: "1 Megabit = 131,072 bytes
1 Megabit = 128 KB (kilobytes)
2 Megabits = 256 KB (kilobytes)"


Thats kilobytes. If we're talking about megabits here, surely the sub-measurement of that would be kilobits?
And true to form, a megabit is 1 024 kilobits:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=how+many+kilobits+in+1+megabits%3F&btnG=Search

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
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David T
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:54
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I just go by thinking a (something)bit is 0.125 time smaller than a (something)byte - the only reason they quote things in bits is because it makes the internet look that much more impressive (1mb is better than 125kbytes)

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 17:23
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Quote: "One megabit is 1,000 Kilobits, or 1,000,000 bits. While Mega usually means 1024 in computer terminology (due to computer storage being based on a binary number system), in data communications decimal notation is used."


To be honest, I'm really not sure if that's right or wrong. This is actually a grey area, kinda like the whole bandwidth thing in computer. Bandwidth means three entirely different things depending on whether:
(1) you're hosting files or an ISP (then it's the amount of data allowed to be transfered per month)
(2) A connection speed measurement (then your bandwidth might be 1Mbps)
(3) A communications engineer (then bandwidth is the frequency range that can pass through a given communications medium (e.g. high quality copper wire has a higher bandwidth than low quality wire)).

I think mainly though Killswitch is right in saying a Mbps is 1,000,000 bits. Communications hardware engineers do indeed measure transmission speeds of devices in base 10. I know we do calculations in Advanced Network labs in base 10 when calculating theoretical connection speeds/transfer rates and all the other business. When converting the results back to bytes/kilobytes/megabytes, we do convert back such that 1024bytes makes a kilobyte.

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TKF15H
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Yup, Killswitch got it right... over a network kilo means thousand, not 1024. Why? Because whoever designed this thing had problems in the head. Don't believe me? Then why is Network Byte Order big endian when 90% of the computers on a network are little endian? huh? HUH?!?!



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Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 17:31
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*Dances*

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 19:09
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I'm inclined to say life would've been so much easier if we'd only had two fingers. Then we would've counted in base 2 instead of base 10. Nobody would be playing the piano above grade 1 though.

Now, 16 fingers .... that would've sorted us out. Hexidecimal goes hand in hand with binary and bytes. Imagine the chords you could play with those puppies.

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Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:46
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I think you could argue the point forever if you used the net as a reference, and while I grew up through the computer revolution and know all about the hardware side of things, the modern networking is something I couldn`t afford until recently and don`t know that much about, but sites list files in binary (1024k) sizes, so I assume the net swaps data in those units, packet sizes will be in binary for example (afaik), it would be wastefull if they where not, but bytes are just listed as bytes, since bandwidth concepts existed before digital communications it could well be that the communication side of things was translated from bandwidth as frequency, eg 20khz and they just translated that directly into bits, so 20000bps, it`s hard to say.



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dab
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:19
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Well, thanks for that er.. Constructive argument. . Though, I have a 11 Mbps connection, and I can download at the same speeds as my stepdad...... Is the 11 mbps only the connection to other computers?


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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:38
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If you have a wireless router, that would be your connection speed to that router. In the same way your stepdad's is 100mbps, yours is 11mbps because wireless technology is slower. Your 512k internet package is obviously the same, so dont worry about having a slower router-compo connection, as its still a lot faster than your inet.

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Les Horribres
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Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:40
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I am inclined to say... you all are wrong. 1 MegaBit = 2^10^6 !!!
Go call your service provider, lets have the real tech boys come tell us what we want.

Merranvo, Teh S \/|03|2 7I<><>I3
Anti-Noob Justice League, what's that?
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dab
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2004
Location: Your Temp Folder!
Posted: 31st Dec 2005 22:38
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lol, this is great! Yes we have a dlink wireless router, but we're having troubles networking. Like we can't see each other's computers. My mom's laptop isn't able to see any of us, and we can't see her either. She can still use the internet though. I wonder what's wrong with our network... ???


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TKF15H
21
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Joined: 20th Jul 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posted: 31st Dec 2005 23:26
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Quote: " I am inclined to say... you all are wrong. 1 MegaBit = 2^10^6 !!!
Go call your service provider, lets have the real tech boys come tell us what we want."

No need to call anybody, I'm already here.


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Killswitch
22
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Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: School damnit!! Let me go!! PLEASE!!!
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 03:55
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For the love of this strange-looking penguin () can you just accept the fact that IN THE CONEXT OF CONNECTION SPEEDS a megabit is equal to 10^6 bits, Merranvo? How many more ways and/or times must we prove you wrong?

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Les Horribres
18
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Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 04:32
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Directly...
Your articles are fragments that support your theory, but notice that they all say "In Telecommunications" and a lot of them are merely copied information. Really annoying. Heck, I would believe that the internet is nothing more then a million sites plagurizing off of each other... Wait... it IS.

Clicky is in agreeance with me. And is one of the few that have their own article.

Merranvo, Teh S \/|03|2 7I<><>I3
Anti-Noob Justice League, what's that?
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dab
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Location: Your Temp Folder!
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 06:35
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Personally, I find wikipedia a very false place for any kind of information.


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