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Geek Culture / Who works as a programmer, and how is it?

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Tinkergirl
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 7th Jan 2006 14:38
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Couple of things to the UK peeps.

If you're wanting to go to the US for game dev, you'll need one of two things: a degree, or (I think) 10 years experience in the games industry. Anything less, and you won't get a green card.

To the Dundee Uni fan, yes, the Dundee university course is fairly well known now, and yes if I remember rightly, it has close ties to Sony. (Or am I thinking of Aberdeen uni). However, the courses in games progamming are NOT required or even prefered in the industry right now. A solid programming degree will serve you as well, if not better - all the theoretical stuff taught in those will come in useful well down the line.
It is a sad fact that coders fresh out of uni have to UN-learn a lot of what the unis teach them, because a lot of it just won't help in the real dev environment.

Finally, for people in the UK, don't go near the Teeside Uni Game Design course. I tried it a few years ago, and it was awful. Your time will be better spent learning real code, not being taught by people who don't know what a game is, or don't know why people prefer mouse and keyboard for FPSs. (It may have improved, I hope so.)
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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 14:52 Edited at: 7th Jan 2006 14:54
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Quote: "gcse exams "
Worthless basically (apart from getting you into A levels and then a degree). Hell if you have a degree then we were told not to bother with anything less than A levels on your CV. Some people don't even bother with school and just put their degree in the education bit. Smallest CV as possible basically. Any more than 2 pages and you are going past the 60 second theory thingy (employers don't look at your CV anymore than that really).

It used to be, and am pretty positive it's still the same, that a Computer Science degree is the best you can do to get noticed by a company. Hell we used to chuck the CVs of anyone without one into the bin (honestly). Support department kept HND ones, but we didn't even keep them (development). Easiest way to filter people. You miss some stars, but you get hardly any wasters this way. Some computer game degrees may give you more brownie points, but I doubt it. Companies treat you like dirt in the beginning and you mean nothing basically. A degree just gets you in the door (maybe). At the end of the day companies know where they are with computer science degrees. Bit like certain companies only employing people with degrees at 1st level (highest), or only if they went to Oxford or Cambridge. Snobs basically. May change over time, but am betting it comes across like "Media studies". Future BK managers basically. Plus whatever you learn for a degree probably is completely useless in a firm. *They* teach you exactly what they want you to do. Once you are doing things properly then you can transfer your skills to other companies, but a company always does things their way.

Friend of mine got an interview at Rare (still prefer Ultimate Play The Game... grrr...) years ago. Basically went along with 2 friends. Him and one friend were great programmers and had they all had degrees, but the second friend was only average as a programmer but *loved* playing games. They asked them what they thought of games etc and him and his programming friend answered similar to how we would; "Love shooting things in Doom etc etc", and followed with showing off their great Amiga demos (very impressive stuff). Third bloke went on about how great Mario and Zelda were, and clever with puzzles blah blah blah. Only the third bloke got the job, as a designer. Designed levels and characters for that Rare fighting game (can't remember name), but never got anything in the game apparently. After a while started getting things into Rare games, and now apparently works in the US for Nintendo. Nice. Apparently gets a new PC every couple of months cos he is a complete games player, and loves the new tech. Git.... Ovbiously my friend is very very jealous (he worked with us for a while on travel software).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 16:55 Edited at: 7th Jan 2006 17:00
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Just to put the alternative slant on the above...

I don't have a degree at all. I got where I am through commercial experience and a good knowledge of the industries I work with.

The other thing is that support is not the dregs of the job that some people think it is. Being a telephone answering robot is not support, it's what I call delay tactics. Real support is carried out by highly skilled consultants who know how to take programs, processes and systems apart efficiently, and get to the bottom of issues that were probably there when the program was developed, but everyone gave up on. Most developers in the organisation I work for wouldn't consider support, because it's a demanding job...but that's why I like it.

My point is: There are many different ways to get where you want to be. read all the options here, don't take any route for granted, and don't dismiss any either before weighing them up. Different organisations have different emphasis on parts of their organisation, don't assume that highly-regarded development in one place will have the same respect in another. And if something's not working out, don't think it's the only route.

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Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 7th Jan 2006 17:07
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@Jeff Miller -

Quote: "I know that one of my sons found the post-discharge college tuition benefits from the Army quite valuable."

Soaking that up right now. I'm being taxed in reverse, it would seem.

Quote: "I have always found your forum posts extremely well-written. Seek your fortune here. Love to have you in our time zones. "

I do appreciate that. Although, my dream plan is to work for Blizzard, which is in California. That won't be easy though, as those guys have very strict requirements and very high expectations. I wouldn't even waste their time without the right ammunition.

If I have a strong portfolio, I'm sure it won't be a problem. They want guys who have been involved in games that have shipped, and have written physics systems from scratch. No pressure... I see developing an RPG from start to finish a huge positive, as it encompasses every aspect of the industry. Although, my first RPG is going to be very short.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 17:31
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Quote: "Being a telephone answering robot is not support"
Yep. Our support people were originally part of development over a decade ago (just before I started), but it split into two when it got too big. But their old manager was not too fussy about CVs at one point.

Quote: "I don't have a degree at all. I got where I am through commercial experience and a good knowledge of the industries I work with"
Fair enough, didn't say it was impossible. My old manager didn't have anything above A levels for example (worked his way up from punch card operator). But it helps to get an interview if you have a degree is all. Our company (this was the manager without a degrees idea) didn't even consider anyone without a degree for the development department. As it happens the amount of dross we got really went down (I used to be the main trainer of programmers and interviewed/ tested most of them at the time) after that was installed. And we put in a simple IQ test. Before that we had a guy who took like 30 seconds trying to find that pesky "O" key (lasted 2 days). Erm...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 17:59
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Quote: "And we put in a simple IQ test"


I had to take a weird test as part of my last interview, and was sent to a special centre to take it. The questions were technical, relating to the job. But the test adjusted itself so that you couldn't answer the questions just from theory. It was designed to ascertain your experience and problem-solving skills.

Everyone came out of the test feeling highly depressed, simply because you couldn't answer the questions and know you were right.


On another note, I once did some technical interviews, where the answer to every question from one guy was "erm...I would press F1"

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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 7th Jan 2006 23:51
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Quote: "Couple of things to the UK peeps.

If you're wanting to go to the US for game dev, you'll need one of two things: a degree, or (I think) 10 years experience in the games industry. Anything less, and you won't get a green card.
"


It's quite a lot easier in Canada, then. At work there are *tons* of people from around the world (mostly from the UK it seems). And some of them are younger than me (under 25), so it would be impossible for them to have 10 years experience

However, from what I know they have degrees. The company paid for their entire relocation costs and even placed them in an expensive fully furnished hotel for 3 weeks to help them find a place. Sounds pretty painless

That was how it was with Ubisoft in Montreal, too. They were offering to pay for me to move myself and my wife, and all of our stuff (even truck my car across the country). Funny thing is I would rather drive my car to Montreal as I haven't driven past Saskatchewan, and even that was over 15 years ago.

There are quite a few gaming companies in Canada, BTW. Rockstar Vancouver, EA, Radical, Ubisoft, THQ (Relic), Next Level Games (creators of Mario Shrikers), Bioware, and tons more that I can't think of now.


Automaton Games website has been revamped! Check it out!
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 01:12
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Oh yeah - British game developers are highly valued (at least in LA, and I assume the rest of the North American continent) - they have a different work ethic to many American game developers. I've been headhunted myself and seen others headhunted.

However, they can't have you unless you can get the green card, and that means degree (or vast amounts of experience). If they can get you - then you can be treated very well.
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Infinity
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 13:33
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@Indi
How do you become freelance progremmer?
Just being on the right place at the right time or there is more?

Infinity
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Dazzag
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 15:16
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Quote: "I had to take a weird test as part of my last interview"
I had an interview at one of those defence contractors once (Ferranti or Marconi - cannot remember) to do with sonar systems. After signing all that secret stuff they gave us this IQ test. They said it was impossible to complete on time, so don't try. Fair enough, and I started the test with this other bloke in the same room. I never normally have much of a problem with tests, but the first question totally threw me. Don't know if it was the situation or whatever, but I totally blew a fuse. Was something like a football league, where they tell you the scores of the first 5 games (team A plays team C and wins 3-0), but don't tell you how many teams are in the league. The last question in the section then said something like "Based on the scores given, guess where team F is in the league". And they had never mentioned team F. Or how many teams are in the league. Totally threw me, and I just couldn't work it out. Before I knew it half of the time had gone and I had nothing. Total panic and I just rushed the rest. Didn't help that the other bloke finished the "unfinishable" test with 10 minutes to go. Grrr.

I didn't get the job (obviously), but they then took us into another room where they analysed the results. Was amazing. Basically they didn't tell you the score, but they remarked on certain things that the test showed them. *And* none of it was negative. Maybe a new PC thing at the time or something. For example, "Hmmm. Very very low score for being able to take orders... hmmmm. Well that just means that you are very original and will be a great designer on your own!!!". Honestly, almost like being 5 again.

Would have been good to use all that Ada knowledge they threw at us in Uni (programming the EuroFighter would have been nice, like some of the year out people at my Uni), but further away from things that explode the better if you ask me Plus I won't lose any sleep because I refuse overtime. These days that might mean your holiday won't be able to have you sitting next to your wife (I program travel systems) rather than a platoon getting wiped out because you made a mistake in a tanks guidance system

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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re faze
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 20:58
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ask raven.

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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RUCCUS
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 21:38
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Going by the vids I've seen of Bungie at work it looks quite amusing, not the typical cubicals instead the entire workplace is covered with posters and tv's, sounds good to me

I saw another vid, long time ago, of bungie showing the progress on Halo 2 and I gotta say unless they were acting it looked pretty damn fun, pretty much just a bunch of goofy programmers hanging out joking around making fun of each other.

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Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 8th Jan 2006 21:58
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Quote: "bungie showing the progress on Halo 2 and I gotta say unless they were acting it looked pretty damn fun, pretty much just a bunch of goofy programmers hanging out joking around making fun of each other."


Yup, that's pretty much the Programming Industry in a nut-shell.

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Undercover Steve
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 23:24
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Windows Server maintance is the best. Mainly because you will never lose your job.

We have fallen Into an abyss! Dear God captian! There all Bars.
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indi
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 00:45
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Infinity : hook yourself up with global agences like AQUENT PARTNERS as one example.

google that name and fill out a form then create a small business in your country and a business card and start selling yourself.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
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Infinity
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 17:54
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I'm not sure I can do that right now (I think I'm not old enough) but I'll look it up. Thanks!

Infinity
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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 19:10
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Quote: "Yup, that's pretty much the Programming Industry in a nut-shell"
It is for us. Now and again we yabble some TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) at each other, and sometimes we do some proper work. But mainly it's ripping the **** out of each other for laughs. Add beer, more chattable birds (see beer), and a lot less work and it might as well be college.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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